Need Advice For PA-12 Mods For Summer Alaska Trip

[MT12]

Wow, if you are going to be doing all of those mod's you will be out of time and money, if you are like most of us, before you get north of the border. My 2 cents worth. Fly the plane you have right now with as few mod's as possible. You'll save money and weight, After your trip you will have a lot better idea if you ever want to do that again and if you do which mod's you really want. But in the meantime.

*spent a few bucks on an Oregon aero bottom seat cushion, you can thank me at about hour 8
* replace your leaky tank with a Wag aero 18 gallon tank, pressure test it for sure first but the first generation ones got the bad rap, I put in a new one a few years ago and its worked great. The 30.5 gallon tanks are too big for most uses, the Dakota cub 24's are great but require wing removal, removal and replacement of a few ribs and new compression members, again a good thing to do if you want after this shake down cruise, but lots of work and something best done when you are also adding flaps at the recover...Been there done that
*safety cables only work with pa-18 style gear which do require welding new ear tabs on the front fitting. You could replace the original 16 guage cable in the bungee area with a beefer size if so desired.
*the borer prop requires at least 850's which will require a field approval unless you go with 18 gear, no STC available for 850's on original 12 gear.. Catto prop's aren't STC'd for certified planes yet.
*I personally don't think you need inertia reels, regular shoulder harnesses by Hooker work great, be sure to get the seat belts that adjust on both sides of the buckle for better comfort. If you attach it with an 'H' bracket to the cross bar above the rear seat you don't need a fancy costly attachment bracket, nor do you need to do any welding.

* did I mention getting a good front seat bottom cushion....

 

[skywagon8a]

*I personally don't think you need inertia reels, regular shoulder harnesses by Hooker work great, be sure to get the seat belts that adjust on both sides of the buckle for better comfort. If you attach it with an 'H' bracket to the cross bar above the rear seat you don't need a fancy costly attachment bracket, nor do you need to do any welding.....

I have inertia reals in my 185 and a fixed harness in my Cub. When adjusted where it will do the most good I find the ability to move around in the seat of the Cub to be restricted. In the 185 it's as though there is nothing there. I wish that I had spent the extra $$ for the Cub.

 

[algonquin]

I also have the reels in my 185 and will never go without them. Had straight shoulder belts in a Pacer, after a while started wearing them lose thinking I'd tighten them if needed, then stopped putting them on.... Well ah the engine quit on take off new shiny dent in the forehead. Now it a helmet and reels, lesson learned.

 

[Gordon Misch]

Moneyburner wrote:

If you're worried about getting caught, try out a Dynon D1 or D2 for emergencies.

I am very pleased and impressed with my Dynon D1. I've had it for about a year now and it has been completely reliable. It gives more accurate attitude indication after maneuvering than some certified Attitude Indicators.

 

[MT12]

I also have the reels in my 185 and will never go without them. Had straight shoulder belts in a Pacer, after a while started wearing them lose thinking I'd tighten them if needed, then stopped putting them on.... Well ah the engine quit on take off new shiny dent in the forehead. Now it a helmet and reels, lesson learned.

Rats, now you've got me thinking about reels...

 

[kevin]

I'm restoring a -12 right now. I don't really know what to add to this except for the stuff you want to do, be prepared to spend big $$$. Everything you do on these things leads to a snowball effect. For example: One of the downsides to a PA-12 is there is no baggage compartment. It has a canvas sling like a J-3. If you were to put in an extended baggae compartment only to the first bay, like a stock PA-18, you have to move the battery, then you have to find a new location for that. Then you have to take out the elevator controls and install an STC for PA-18 controls, It is not needed, but it is best to have a PA-14 Cathedral brace so you don't have a big tube running down your baggage compartment. Now how are you going to get the bags into the ship? You can install a baggage door or you can take out the rear seat sling and have your back seat on a piano hinge where the seat folds down. Then you still have a cross bar that goes across the frame. You can get an STC for a removeable crossbar that must be in place for flight. This snowball effect does not stop. It goes on and on. Don't ask me how I know.

There are three downsides to a -12: 1. Baggage space. It is placarded at 41 LBS but if you put your flight bag in the sling, you just cubed out of space. 2. Fuel tanks. Like mentioned above, the original -12 tanks had soldered ternplate. When in choppy air, they will form cracks and leak. You'll be chasing leaks till the cows come home. The float gauge on the bottom of the tank is notorious for bumping a head and causing a leak, They are just junk. Your best bet is a PA-18 sight gauge in the wing root. Now you have to eliminate a headliner there. Your best bet is to do a Skylight , install wing root panels with PA-18 sight gauges and stop your headliner above the rear seat.(Here comes that snowball effect). There are only rear pickups on the tanks so if you are low on fuel, descending from altitude, you could unport your lines. You need to have front and rear pickups on the tanks. Cubcrafters STC incorporates this and eliminates dual fuel valves for 1 valve going Left, Right, Both, Off. This valve will be next to your trim crank. Now that you have eliminated those dual valves, you won't need an inertia reel because without flaps, there is no need to bend over in the seat. Besides all of this, the original fuel tanks were known for collecting water. 3. If you are installing an O-320, you will have problems with your trim. It will most likely slip due to the increased H.P. I used to fly a stock PA-12 and it still slipped. To fix this, you would want to install a PA-18 trim system. Easiest to do when there is no fabric on the frame.

Again, what you do to one thing on this plane will lead to another. Next thing you know, you are up to your eyeballs in a full blown restoration. I say this not to be negative, just realistic. Best of luck to you on your journey.

Where in CA are you from?

 

[kevin]

Also, to answer your questions about landing gear, If you plan on going on floats, I would install PA-18 gear. To do this, you will need to weld on ears on the front of the gear fittings. These will be for the landing gear cabane. If you are not going to be on floats, I would leave the PA-12 or preferably go with PA-14 gear. The PA-12 had an AD note against the gear. the flat strap could buckle causing the gear to fold. The AD was to beef up the strap at the axle or install streamlined tubing around the strap, or install PA-14 gear. If you are going to do all of that welding with the AD note, I'd just put on PA-14 gear. Incidentally, PA-12/14 gear has bungee safety cables. They are internal and run from the bungee truss to the top of the gear legs. Some people say that installing PA-18 gear legs mean that you can cut out the bungee truss and I've heard others say that you don't want to do that because that takes away a lot of the strength of the frame. I do not know enough to know if this is true. I do know that if you cut the bungee truss out, you will have to replace the front seat and go with a PA-18 front seat. That PA-12 front seat was/is goofy anyways.

 

[mike mcs repair]

How hard are the Dakota 23 gallon or Atlee 30's to put in? Is this something that by the time I am done I have just about recovered/rebuilt the whole wing?

dodge tanks are easy on a covered wing, 20 to 25 hours to install a pair and paint..

dakotas are more work on a covered plane, but less work on a rebuild...(if you replace tank bay ribs at same time)

 

[Gordon Misch]

I do know that if you cut the bungee truss out, you will have to replace the front seat and go with a PA-18 front seat.

There is an STC to remove the bungee truss and modify the PA-12 seat (Ron Sullivan, if I remember correctly). Pretty easy to do uncovered; covered, one would need to deal with avoiding all the hot grinding residue and welding spatter landing on the belly fabric. I did it on my -12 (uncovered) and I'm happy with the result.

 

[DENNY]

I think NEW 31 in bush wheels should be at the top of the list. Consider them safety gear. You will do fine with stock 12 gear. All of the mods you want to do are fine but if you are getting short of cash leave the gear, tailwheel, IFR off for now. The new DELORME products are great. You can text in flight anywhere and set up spider tracks, 911 button. All for one price.
DENNY

 

[WhiskeyMike]

We've owned 7 or 8 PA-12's. Couple of points. PA-12 original tanks are leakers- especially around the gas gauges when you hit your head on them. Dodge tanks are great, but when our shop installed ours, they required us to replace the leading edges on the wings with PA-18 leading edges. (Mike MCS - did i get the shaft then from that shop? They pulled recent new cover off the wings for that.) I had very little trouble with the Dodge tanks but a belly tank would be a lot quicker and easier. Dakota might be easier, but I never installed them. I have doubts about the quality of the Wag Aero tanks. Anyone have experience?

The original landing gear needs the streamline tube wrapped around the old flat strap and welded in place. Better yet, a lot of people weld a short tube between the strap and main gear tube for added strength against compression loads. Unless you're really going into rough strips, the PA-12 gear will usually be fine, and the PA-18 gear conversion is pretty extensive. Spend money on the Borer prop, gas, survival equipment, and a good cell phone.

 

[aktango58]

If your tanks have issues, change them... from experience.

Bushwheels. I do not like goodyear. By the end of your trip, you will not either.

If you are traveling alone, you will NOT be able to fill the back seat area without being overloaded... both in just more stuff than you need and weight.

Good serviceable plane. You don't need fancy or super powered. Lots of little planes here, (150s, 140s, champs) do the wild every day here. Learn the plane performance, stay within it; no big deal.

Hand held gps, and forflight or dynon... forget the rest of the crap that adds weight and cost. Some of that stuff is better than the original gauges.

Good seatbelts, shoulder harness, and comfortable seat.

If you are taking a long trip, a cruise prop will be nice. What ever the setup, fly it.

Buy some good comfortable camp gear: tent, sleeping pad and sleeping bag. BUY QUALITY. If you intend to camp, buy a good two burner stove (they stay upright and level easier)- propane is easy, a light camp chair, and a couple of tarps.

Buy lots of gas before you come. Stop in here on the way north and i can help you with some fishing and camping spots.

 

[aktango58]

Forgot to add: good reading material so you can sit back and relax when the weather is not good... including out camping

 

[Cubuser1099]

A

 

[sflyboy]

I appreciate all your comments/advice. With time, money and not wanting to do a full blown restoration this is what I am currently thinking:

Finishing (already have the parts):
O-320 Kenmore engine upgrade from O-235
Sensenich M74DM52 prop (found a used one off Barnstormers)
Sutton Exhaust
JPI EDM900 Engine monitor

Going to Do:
Replace old leaking left tank with Wag Aero 18 gal Tank (right already replaced)
Install Steves or Air Frames brake booster (old breaks don’t work with a darn)
Safety Cables from F. Atlee Dodge
Replace bungees with stock (current ones are pretty old)
Rear stick cover from F. Atlee Dodge
Seat belts with inertia real (maybe Hooker)
Redo front seat (maybe Oregon aero)
Fuel Bags from Airframes Alaska

Possibly will do if funds allow:
Cargo pod from Airglas or Firmin
Fueling Step
Baby Bushwheel
31” Bushwheels

Not Doing:
Garmin 430 or anything to make it IFR
3” Gear Extension
Bigger fuel tanks
Baggage compartment

Will be brining with me on the trip:
SPOT Gen 3
PLB
SAT Phone
IPad with ForeFlight
Hand Held Garmin 196
45-70 Marlin “Guide Gun”
Electric Bear fence
Good tie downs & Rope
Tool Kit
Tire Pump
Tire Patch Kit
Hiking backpack
Tent, Sleeping bag and pad
Tarps
Warm clothes
Hiking boots
Lots of DEET
Camp chair
Stove
Water Purifier
Medical Kit
A good book for when the weather is bad
GoPro
Camera

Things to look into:
eAPIS account with US Customs and Border Protection
FCC Restricted Radio Telephone Operator's and a station license
Insurance covering Canada and landing off airport

2. I have a Firmin pod that was installed with a field approval, two five gallon fuel bags from Bushwheels. Works great. The Airglas pods are nice, STC'd and cost considerably more than the Alaska Bushpods (Firmin). I have Bob Piatt's phone number if you want to talk to him about the Firmin Pod. Mine was $2200 in 2013.

Yes please send me Bob Piatt’s phone number. Do you have any pictures of yours you can share?

Where in CA are you from?

I am based out of Lancaster WJF. Would love to stop by and see your PA-12.

Buy lots of gas before you come. Stop in here on the way north and i can help you with some fishing and camping spots.

Thanks and I will swing by on the way up

 

[TurboBeaver]

Thats a pretty good list , first thing I would have had on the list is a 2 1/2 lb Hudson Bay Axe, one quart aluminum pot, with a bail on it.... and not sure
If you have wing bows or some kinda fiberglass tips? I always liked to take tips off and stuff 10 Mountain House freeze dry meals, in each
Wingtip, they weigh nothing and always have them with you! The day you need them you will be some glad you can whip out a screwdriver,
And hang out for days waiting for help or riding out a bad storm with a full belly, you have everything you need with that axe and pot......

The spot ,an sat phone are great, the 45/70, and Deet are handy, and if your not going with big tires, a good comprimise is find a set of used Goodyear 26" tires, the 13" axle height is a big help if your flapless ,for getting off at lower airspeed, there not as wide or nearly as soft, but
They are a good cheaper alternative. Be careful and use your common sense, if it looks to short and your circling, dont land, go some where else, if it looks to rough-chances are it IS, keep moving......... if its seams too gusty and your iffy, dont untie it...... if your not a seasoned bush pilot, (but would like to be one) big tires and a long black prop wont make you one........... just because you see them do something that looks impossible to you, beware, " it probably is."
Good luck and tailwinds.....

 

[MT12]

Only thing I see missing on your list is a bug jacket, on our arctic canoe trips I won't let someone join us unless they have one and I carry a spare. I like the kind that you soak in deet before wearing. Hooped head net is nice too.

If you don't change to pa-18 style gear you won't need the safety cables on your list.

doug

 

[SC3CM]

VG's? Might have missed it, but lots of benefit for low price and very easy to install.
Your bush kit includes some sort of hatchet or small saw, and work gloves.

If you do not have extended baggage and are looking to carry any of the Airframes Alaska Liquid Containment Bags, you may push the pod up on your priority list. It is very tough to get more than one in the rear seat and still cram other stuff in there. It's just an awkward fit. When I put the Airglass pod on, the usability of the plane went up significantly. I can get two bags with 5 gallons of liquid in them in the pod, still get other stuff in there, and use the rear seat and tiny storage area for the softer stuff and anything I wouldn't mind having land on me in the event things went differently than I had planned. Anything I might carry in those bags would not be good to have right behind you if things get ugly. It might also help to squeeze any extra air out of the bag before you seal it shut. Saves space and keeps the stuff from sloshing around as much. They also sell a convenient spigot type spout thing which is much easier than using the ones that come with the bags if you need to pour whatever is in them into something higher up. Either make one yourself, or by one of theirs.

You may consider sealing up the back door of an airglass pod if you are flying with any rain because the slip stream will pull moisture up and inside, including any oil you might normally just end up on the belly. If you used that last bit of space to tuck your sleeping bag and clothes because they cram in there well, you might be disappointed.

You're going to get a lot out of your EDM if you take the time to learn how to use it properly. If you're doing these long legs in areas where fuel may be an issue you will certainly want to figure out the ideal power/mixture setting for your plane once it is ready, and loaded up to the weight you will fly it. You may find with all the engine instruments you can run much leaner than you thought! My EDM fuel burned/remaining is very accurate, never off by more than .1 gal which is surely just because I'm not getting as accurate on where I fill to. Another plane I fly regularly the EDM is not even close and totally unreliable on fuel flow so it's worth getting to know the plane and working out any kinks before the trip. Knowing your plane and how much further you can REALLY go, might keep you from setting down in a questionable spot when you could go back to a better spot you passed, or an airport a bit further up the road.

My PA-12 with O320, 14 gear, airglass pod, 31's does just fine with a sens 74x52 prop loaded up to the legal max, but you are NOT going to be competing with the PA-18's you see in the videos. Just understand that and get VERY comfortable flying the plane at weight, and keep track of the rwy you use and more importantly the distance to clear obstacles. With 31's on the 12 I have never needed a fuel step or ladder, and I'm almost as short as Tim.

Load up with your list of stuff and get out for a weekend in a remote spot, then come home and revise your list. Most people seem to do this on an ongoing basis.

 

[Colorguns]

If you stay with the original streamline gear. Replace the bungees before you go, unless fairly new. Worn out cords and hard landings don't go together. Experience with a 12 many many years ago.

 

[cubdriver2]

90" x34" Wiggys super light sleeping bag -0 Zero rated 5.5lb bag with a pillow. Space bag





Glenn

 

[Lasater]

I did the trip several years ago in a PA-14 with no prior Alaska experience. I packed all of the survival gear recommended by the Alaska Airman's Logbook. I added 8.50's, Cleveland brakes, VG's and inertial reel shoulder harnesses. When I started flying through Alaska, I had a realization that I did not have the experience to do real off airport work. The Alaska environment is not as forgiving as Texas (or California). You can get into very serious trouble if you don't know what you are doing in the backcountry.

My point is that you may be better off not spending all the money prepping your plane for the back country. Do what it takes to make your -12 safe for a long trip. There are plenty of decent/easy strips in Alaska in beautiful places. If you want to do more hardcore flying, find someone with the experience to go with you. Better yet-go in their heavily modified airplane. You will have great time.

 

[TurboBeaver]

Lasater has some very good ideas for ya there, I think you will come go the same conclusions he did ,Alaska is a far cry from Ca or Tx flying,
Not sure where you are at with a bigger baggage mod? But it was always much easier in a 12 ,to extend the top baggage vs the bottom, alot more modifying in bottom area, where as top is pretty simple, just ad some plywood for a bottom ,and bend up two halfs to make the roof and you can make it pretty deep, just dont put really heavy junk back in the end of it.........thats the cheapest way in a 12 to get more room.

 

[DENNY]

Your list sounds fine. Don't worry you will do great. I learned to fly up here in a pacer with 26 in goodyears. I took that plane around most of the state on and off runway. Keep posting and gaining contacts with locals in the areas you want to fly they will tell you where to go. Stop by Birchwood when you get here and we will do some local flying. We have Bushwheels/Airframes on the runway and some good shops to fix whatever has gone wrong on the trip up. Check your PM.
DENNY

 

[Bill Rusk]

I have found that an IPOD or music source (IPhone) plugged into the headset makes a big difference on the long legs. Be sure you can recharge. Looks like you are getting good advice and doing well. It will be a lifetime bucket list trip. Perhaps the first of many.

God Speed

Bill

 

[pa12drvr]

Looks like you've got the good advice already...what I'd offer:

- Other than what you've got underway, carefully evaluate what you want to do with your -12: if you want an -18, sell the -12 and get an -18; if you want a 180....etc

- From direct personal experience, I can offer that original -12 gear with new/good bungees can take some pretty hellaciously rough landings (that may just be pilot-induced...)

- Looks like you've dropped the idea, but no matter how hard one looks, a -12 just ain't the plane for IFR...see 1st point above.

- It's easy to get carried away on "more-itis"....

 

[moneyburner]

I have found that an IPOD or music source (IPhone) plugged into the headset makes a big difference on the long legs. Be sure you can recharge. Looks like you are getting good advice and doing well. It will be a lifetime bucket list trip. Perhaps the first of many.

God Speed

Bill

I have found that over the many, many hours spent standing watches, operating equipment, driving long distances and, to a lesser extent, flying airplanes, I prefer to save the music for when I'm stationary, and listen to my steed, if you will. I consider my ears as part of my instrumentation and listening is part of my scan. This has served me well at sea, pushing dirt, driving and flying. You can often hear something about to go wrong before you see it by doing an instrument scan.

Music is nice, but distracts from the business at hand and should be used with caution. This is a small thing, and probably not really necessary, but I personally find that I can get by just enjoying the view out the window.

That being said, having the ability to use your phone with your headphones is a real nice thing to have!