Need Advice For PA-12 Mods For Summer Alaska Trip

[sflyboy]

Hi Everyone


I am new to SuperCub.org and am looking for some advice about what mods I should do to my PA-12 for an Alaska back country trip I am going on this coming July. Currently the plane is a stock PA-12 with a O-235, 26" Good Year tires and PA-18 Tail Feathers. I am in the process of installing a O-320 (using the Kenmore Air Harbor STC), JPI EDM900 engine monitor and Steve's Aircraft Gascolator. Below are the following mods I am thinking about doing and would appreciate any advice you guys can give.

​

1. The Kenmore Air Harbor STC calls for a Sensenich M74DM52 or McCauley 1A170GM7450 propeller but I have heard that the Borer prop is better to use. Is there a STC out there to put it on a 150 HP PA-12 with a Kenmore O-320 STC? Or is there a Catto prop I can use? If so whats the cost of the STC and a used prop for either?


2. Sutton Exhaust with cabin heater air-scoop and rear mounted oil cooler


3. Garmin 430W and everything to make the plane IFR


4. Seat belts with shoulder harnesses. What are good seat belts to get? Do I need the Automatic Inertia Reels? Do I need the attachment brackets from Atlee Dodge or can I just make my own? http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?option=com_djcatalog2&view=itemstable&cid=6:exhaustsystem&Itemid=53


5. Since I don't have a baggage compartment I plan on strapping gear to the rear seat. I worry about the gear shifting in flight or on landing and fouling the rear stick. Can I remove the rear stick by just unbolting it and than build an aluminum box to cover the remaining moving parts? Can this be done with a simple log book entry or do i need to get a STC/field approval?


6. Baby Bushwheel Tailwheel from Air Frames Alaska http://www.airframesalaska.com/Tailwheels-s/1814.htm


7. Steves Vented Booster Brake http://www.stevesaircraft.com/vbrake.php
or
Brake Booster from Air Frames Alaska http://www.airframesalaska.com/product-p/8400.htm

8. 3" Extend Gear like the Atlee Dodge http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?option=com_djcatalog2&view=itemstable&cid=9:landinggear&Itemid=53


9. Safety Cables like the Atlee Dodge http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?option=com_djcatalog2&view=itemstable&cid=9:landinggear&Itemid=53


10. Are the stock bungee's ok or is there a PA-12 STC for hydrosorbs or the carbon cubs AOSS? If so whats the cost of STC and parts?


11. Long Step like the Atlee Dodge http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?op...ew=item&id=62:longstep&cid=11:steps&Itemid=53


12. Refueling Step like the Atlee Dodge http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?op...em&id=63:refuelingstep&cid=11:steps&Itemid=53


13. Belly Pod. With the stock 18 gal tanks and really no baggage compartment I think a belly pod would be a good way to get a little more of both. Are they a good idea? I have looked at the Airglas web page. I cant afford a new one but if I can find a used one to buy/rent it might be possible for me to afford.


Is there anything I am missing that is a must have? Is there anything that's not worth doing? My funds are limited and I don't know that I will have the money or time to get everything on this list done. In the future I would like to completely rebuild the plane adding flaps, a bigger baggage compartment, gross weight increase and bigger fuel tanks.


Thank You -Shane

 

[mghallen]

$50 A good pak/bag to carry stuff, if it has good straps to secure with seatbelt all the better.
$300 InReach or communicator with subscription.
$300-500 Decent navigation with map like an ipad with foreflight
$300 good sleeping bag and fair/nothing fancy tent
$50 warm work gloves/hat

I am not including Customs fees and planning or hotels, camp food, lots of rope for tiedowns, sleeping pad/engine blanket.

$1000 right there no need to spend more, heck the 0-235 is just fine. Do not forget cell phone roaming and a decent cheapo camera.

 

[skywagon8a]

"My funds are limited and I don't know that I will have the money or time to get everything on this list done."

With this in mind I would go with:
Brake Booster from Air Frames Alaska http://www.airframesalaska.com/product-p/8400.htm less expensive, same performance. (I'm biased)

Seaworthy has a wood 80" Sensenich prop on his 26" Goodyear equip Kenmore -12 which gives him good performance. Perhaps he will chime in with the model numbers and approval basis?

Rear stick: Just take it out and cover it with a crush proof box screwed to the floor. No approval required. And presto, now you have a large enough baggage compartment.

"Are the stock bungee's ok or is there a PA-12 STC for hydrosorbs or the carbon cubs AOSS? If so whats the cost of STC and parts?"
This involves changing over to complete PA-18 gear. $$$$ Not necessary.

Automatic inertia real seat belts are more comfortable and convenient. You can make your own attachment. AC 43-13 for approval.

The step depends on your height. Are you tall enough to comfortably refuel without it?

The rest of the stuff which you mention is for those who constantly go "off roading". You don't really "NEED" if you are choosing landing areas carefully.

ps. Are there safety cables for a stock PA-12 landing gear? The ones which are usually seen are on PA-18 gear.

 

[mvivion]

$50 A good pak/bag to carry stuff, if it has good straps to secure with seatbelt all the better.
$300 InReach or communicator with subscription.
$300-500 Decent navigation with map like an ipad with foreflight
$300 good sleeping bag and fair/nothing fancy tent
$50 warm work gloves/hat

I am not including Customs fees and planning or hotels, camp food, lots of rope for tiedowns, sleeping pad/engine blanket.

$1000 right there no need to spend more, heck the 0-235 is just fine. Do not forget cell phone roaming and a decent cheapo camera.

Great recommendations, and:

Equip for IFR??? Don't even think about it. Couple reasons, not the least of which the 12 isn't approved for IFR on it's TC. Could be done, but will require a LOT more than just a Garmin 430W. AND, single engine IFR in a non de-iced airplane in Alaska can be a life limiting exercise, even in summer. If the weather's bad, take the time to explore the area where you're stuck--there's always things to see, no matter where you're at. IFR could be done, but not necessary and probably not a good idea in any case, at least in my opinion.

Fueling steps: Yes

Gear mods: Maybe. If you're going this route, convert to Cub gear. Big bucks, and again, depends on where you're going to land.

Better mod than all those $$$$ gear mods: Buy a set of Bushwheels. They'll do a lot for your Angle of attack on the ground, plus absorb a lot of abuse from landings/takeoffs. Others can address whether the stock 12 gear can take a lot of abuse....in my experience that gear (with new bungees) is pretty good. Maybe a clamp on brace between main gear leg and cabane, or a weld on one, if you can get approved.

Gear safety cables for sure.

Atlee Dodge sells a rear stick cover, or as Pete says, make one out of aluminum sheet.

Fuel tanks: In my experience with the 12 (not extensive) those terne plate fuel tanks often leak, and are really tough to repair. Are your tanks in REALLY good shape? If not, that's where I'd spend money as opposed to many of those other mods. Dakota tanks. If your tanks are in really good shape, maybe spend that money on other stuff.

But, mostly, I'd just buy gas, good camp gear, and go for it. A good prop to go with the 320 is an obvious choice, of course, assuming you're set on the 320.

MTV

 

[skukum12]

Do yourself a HUGE favor and forget the IFR. Save $ and go with cub gear and bushwheels. Get fuel capacity. Dakota has 23 gallon tanks and Atlee has 30s. 160 hp pistons give more power and fuel economy.

And of course x2 on MTVs statement.

 

[mike mcs repair]

also... as far as that IFR stuff....

http://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...Alaska-good-reading&highlight=bad+alaska+maps

Alaska, it turns out, has never been mapped to modern standards. While the U.S. Geological Survey is constantly refining its work in the lower 48 states, the terrain data in Alaska is more than 50 years old, much of it hand-sketched from black-and-white stereo photos shot from World War II reconnaissance craft and U-2 spy planes.Errors abound. Locals tell of mountains as much as a mile out of place. Streams flow uphill, and ridges are missing because a cloud happened by when the photo was taken.
“Mars is better mapped than the state of Alaska,”.

 

[don d]

You can have a great time with your stock 12..

 

[sflyboy]

Brake Booster from Air Frames Alaska http://www.airframesalaska.com/product-p/8400.htm less expensive, same performance. (I'm biased)

Great. On there web page they say that it requires “FAA approved high-pressure brake lines”. Does something like Aeroquip 303 hose work? If not what does?

Rear stick: Just take it out and cover it with a crush proof box screwed to the floor. No approval required. And presto, now you have a large enough baggage compartment.

I was hoping that it was this easy :lol:

Automatic inertia real seat belts are more comfortable and convenient. You can make your own attachment. AC 43-13 for approval.

Great! Are the ones from Univair a good choice? http://www.univair.com/piper/parts/4022-1-051-2396-amsafe-rear-shoulder-harness-kit/

The step depends on your height. Are you tall enough to comfortably refuel without it?

Well I can check the tank level and fill up at the the pump currently without a step but it is a little difficult at times. I don't see myself being able to use a gas can :???: One of my ideas was to bring a few 5 gal gas cans and leave them at base camp. That way I don't have to fly back to a real airport all the time. What does everyone think about flying with two to three 5 gal gas cans in the back seat? :???:

ps. Are there safety cables for a stock PA-12 landing gear? The ones which are usually seen are on PA-18 gear.

Good question. I have no idea. Next time I am at the airport I will look at the plane. Does anyone have safety cables on a stock PA-12 gear?

 

[mvivion]

No need to go to airport:

Atlee's web site shows 2089-12 gear safety cables for PA 12/14.

MTV

 

[jr.hammack]

get alaska airframes/bushwheels fuel bags instead of cans or jugs stores great empty or full better!!!

jr.

 

[cubdriver2]

Pod? You could put all your crap in there

Glenn

 

[sflyboy]

Equip for IFR??? Don't even think about it. Couple reasons, not the least of which the 12 isn't approved for IFR on it's TC. Could be done, but will require a LOT more than just a Garmin 430W. AND, single engine IFR in a non de-iced airplane in Alaska can be a life limiting exercise, even in summer. If the weather's bad, take the time to explore the area where you're stuck--there's always things to see, no matter where you're at. IFR could be done, but not necessary and probably not a good idea in any case, at least in my opinion.

So my desire to make the plane IFR is more for the fact that I typically fly around the California cost and get fogged in and out of airports frequently. I have no desire to fly in true IFR weather in a cub, especially around Alaska (I am not that good of an IFR pilot and I value my life). I have gone back and forth about putting a Garmin 430W in the plane. (Mainly because of the cost issue $8.5k :sad. I also have thought about just putting a VOR/ILS into the plane. I will have to look into the IFR and TC thing. I have never heard of it before. I talked to my local avionics shop about installing the 430W to make the plane IFR and he said it was on the Garmin STC and would be relatively easy. From my IFR training I thought the plane just had to have the required minimum equipment and you were good to go, but I guess that might not be correct.

Gear mods: Maybe. If you're going this route, convert to Cub gear. Big bucks, and again, depends on where you're going to land.

Better mod than all those $$$$ gear mods: Buy a set of Bushwheels. They'll do a lot for your Angle of attack on the ground, plus absorb a lot of abuse from landings/takeoffs. Others can address whether the stock 12 gear can take a lot of abuse....in my experience that gear (with new bungees) is pretty good. Maybe a clamp on brace between main gear leg and cabane, or a weld on one, if you can get approved.

Does switching to the cub gear require cutting/welding tubes on the fuselage?

What does a used set of 31" or 35" Bushwheels go for?

Do you or anyone have a picture of what the clamp on brace might look like?

Atlee Dodge sells a rear stick cover, or as Pete says, make one out of aluminum sheet.

Great! I dint know Atlee Dodge made one. I will look into it.

Fuel tanks: In my experience with the 12 (not extensive) those terne plate fuel tanks often leak, and are really tough to repair. Are your tanks in REALLY good shape? If not, that's where I'd spend money as opposed to many of those other mods. Dakota tanks. If your tanks are in really good shape, maybe spend that money on other stuff.

My right tank has been recently replaced but my left does leak and I was going to look into fixing it when I put the new O-320 on. Sounds like that might be harder than I thought. I will look into getting a replacement tank. I want to eventually put 30.5 gal Atlee Dodge tanks in but I am not at a point where I can do that.

But, mostly, I'd just buy gas, good camp gear, and go for it. A good prop to go with the 320 is an obvious choice, of course, assuming you're set on the 320.

The whole reason I started down the O-320 route is that the current O-235 that is on the plane is at the end of its life (I wanted to make this trip last year but my IA said don't go until you get a better engine on the plane). Any suggestions on a prop and were I can get the STC paperwork for it?

Thank You
Shane

 

[sflyboy]

Do yourself a HUGE favor and forget the IFR. Save $ and go with cub gear and bushwheels. Get fuel capacity. Dakota has 23 gallon tanks and Atlee has 30s. 160 hp pistons give more power and fuel economy.

And of course x2 on MTVs statement.

How hard are the Dakota 23 gallon or Atlee 30's to put in? Is this something that by the time I am done I have just about recovered/rebuilt the whole wing?

Is there any STC paperwork out there for the 160HP pistons?

 

[Speedo]

DEET and lots of it.

 

[BradleyG]

Here is a picture of my rear PA-18 Stick Cover made by my mechanic. You will notice that it attached to the floor with Velcro not screws. It was my mechanic's opinion that screws required FAA approval and Velcro was a temporary attachment and required no STC. Regardless the cover works well.

 

[skukum12]

Dodge or dakota tanks are normally installed at rebuild. It can be done otherwise but it is a fairly intensive task

 

[moneyburner]

1. Don't bother with IFR; you will be adding a lot of weight and gyros that will fail often from vibration, introducing unnecessary complexity and spending a large box of money to get it that way. This is a VFR airplane; if the weather is bad, just don't fly that day. If it's getting bad, land somewhere. If you're worried about getting caught, try out a Dynon D1 or D2 for emergencies. A transponder is handy when crossing the border or near busy airspace; in fact, if you don't have one you'll need a TSA waiver, which takes another week or so after applying.

2. I have a Firmin pod that was installed with a field approval, two five gallon fuel bags from Bushwheels. Works great. The Airglas pods are nice, STC'd and cost considerably more than the Alaska Bushpods (Firmin). I have Bob Piatt's phone number if you want to talk to him about the Firmin Pod. Mine was $2200 in 2013.

3. Fuel computer. I use an E.I. model FP-5L that takes a data input from my Aera 550. (the Aera has a power/data cable installed in the plane with the two data wires connected to the fuel computer). It gives me fuel to waypoint, amount of fuel remaining, current burn rate, etc. I certainly don't count on it, but it offers up some peace of mind and confirmation of what I have measured. It's been amazingly accurate. I still have 18 gallon tanks with a 160hp, so I'm pretty diligent about keeping track of it. There is no substitute for knowing your fuel burn at various power settings and being aware of your range. Bigger tanks require structual modifications inside the wing.

4. STC SA02170AK (Dan's Aircraft, Merrill Field, Anchorage) for installation of 1A170GM 82/41 through 82/44 Borer prop. It is suitable for the Kenmore 0-320 installation. Requires minimum 850-6.00 tires for ground clearance. A new prop is around $4400? The Catto prop is better, I've heard. (I can't afford one).

5. iPad mini with Foreflight or similar. I have a RAM mount and a powered antenna for it that goes on the skylight on the inside. The iPad has a GPS antenna, but it's not very good; the external GPS antenna is necessary. You have to load up the charts for whereever you're going before you leave cell tower coverage, but it works okay for me.

6. A USB power plug or two installed in the panel for above. This simplifies things and keeps all those damned cords at bay. Sort of.

7. Shoulder harness: You can install them easily. Atlee has brackets and fittings, and the FAA will give you very little grief about doing so. Inertial reels are great, but not necessary.

8. 31" Bushwheels. Better prop clearance, better stance when taking off and they'll absorb more bumps.

9. PA-18 gear, unless your old PA-12 gear is in very good shape. Remember, if that gear is original, it might be nearly 70 years old, so if you're keeping it, inspect it very carefully.

10. Atlee safety cables, absolutely.

And, some things you didn't ask about, may already know about, but here they are anyway . . . .

11. If you're flying through Canada, and you probably are, get a SIM card for your phone when you get there. I have a prepaid one from Rogers Canada, got a new phone number and didn't need a local address. It was about $30; this has saved me hundreds of dollars in roaming and data charges which I have subsequently squandered on beer. I didn't bother getting one for my iPad; I turn off data when in Canada and find wifi when I need to load a chart.

12. An eAPIS account with US Customs and Border Protection and an annual user fee window sticker. Setting it up isn't user-friendly, but once it's done, it works pretty well. Don't wait until the week before you leave, because it takes some time. AOPA has a tutorial: http://www.aopa.org/Flight-Planning/Canada.

13. Here's info you might want from Canada Border Services Agency: http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/pub/bsf5061-eng.html. I also went through the trouble of getting an FCC Restricted Radio Telephone Operator's and a station license for the airplane, which is required, but no one will ever ask you for it. I primarily did it so I would not have anything for my insurance company to nag about in the event of a problem. Others rightly feel that it probably is never going to be needed, but I prefer being thorough.

14.Which brings us to insurance; talk to your insurer before leaving and tell them what you have planned and see what they say. Ask them about off-airport operations, if you're planning that.

15. A shotgun or hunting rifle is okay in Canada, but leave your pistol at home; they have absolutely no sense of humor concerning that. I have a stainless Mariner 12 ga pump that doubles as an emergency survival/bird gun. Bears hate it, and it also shoots flare rounds so I don't have to bring that thing.

16. Flight plans in Canada use ICAO format, which is different. NavCanada (and others) have info, if you aren't familiar. Generally, I've found that when calling in a flight plan, they're pretty helpful and won't mock you if you don't know all the details.

 

[moneyburner]

How hard are the Dakota 23 gallon or Atlee 30's to put in? Is this something that by the time I am done I have just about recovered/rebuilt the whole wing?

Is there any STC paperwork out there for the 160HP pistons?

I have an 0-320-B2B 160. I can't use autogas because of the higher compression.

 

[moneyburner]

My right tank has been recently replaced but my left does leak and I was going to look into fixing it when I put the new O-320 on. Sounds like that might be harder than I thought. I will look into getting a replacement tank. I want to eventually put 30.5 gal Atlee Dodge tanks in but I am not at a point where I can do that.

Wag Aero has aluminum 18 gallon replacement tanks. Mine were destroyed in a windstorm, and Dakota didn't have theirs on the market yet. I got sight gauge fittings welded into the new tanks at Atlee's shop; both of the new ones leaked, so if you get one, have it tested and patched before installing it.

 

[moneyburner]

Wag PA-12 tank page:

http://store.wagaero.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=tank&search_in_description=1&page=3

 

[cruiser]

Atlee's cables are for airplanes that have been converted to PA-18 gear.
If you go with Wag tanks have them leak checked before you install them. Dakota Cub has 24 gallon tanks but some wing de-cover will be required to install them. When you are flying into a 40 mph headwind would you prefer to have gas or pretty wings? Cubtanks.com has J-5 tanks but I don't believe their PA-12 tanks are approved yet, may be worth a call if your serious about new tanks.
Have fun, Jim

 

[skywagon8a]

Great. On there web page they say that it requires “FAA approved high-pressure brake lines”. Does something like Aeroquip 303 hose work? If not what does?

The 303 lines are acceptable or any other reinforced lines. The original Piper lines swell up and can leak at the fitting, even when new.

 

[Ursa Major]

I have an 0-320-B2B 160. I can't use autogas because of the higher compression.

Petersen has the STC for the O-320-B2B and the PA-12. It requires 91 Octane mogas without ethanol. Cost for the STC is $2.00 per HP. I use it on my PA-18 - works great and saves lots of $$$ if you can find non ethanol premium mogas.

 

[moneyburner]

It requires 91 Octane mogas without ethanol.

. . . which I can not find anywhere. You are correct, though; I misspoke.

 

[N5126H]

My two cents, being you are limited on funds.

By a handheld GPS, like a 496 type. The Ipad and forflight is not nearlly as handy while in flight during tough conditions. (put foreflight on your cell phone) Buy a SAT phone. Your not flying in California, there are not cell towers everywhere. A five gallon can or bag is very handy, full or not. Buy a set of 31" Bushwheels and brake boosters.(for safety reasons) No need for Baby Bushwheel for your use. Get the Dodge rear stick cover. Buy a handheld 406ELT. Make a medical kit. Borer prop is great, but you will fly slower, and unless you really want the shortfield performance as opposed to the cruse speed forget it. Canada will make you jump through hoops for any type of gun, but no semi-auto and handguns for sure. Have season apporiate gear. Take your time, have fun.

Hi Everyone


I am new to SuperCub.org and am looking for some advice about what mods I should do to my PA-12 for an Alaska back country trip I am going on this coming July. Currently the plane is a stock PA-12 with a O-235, 26" Good Year tires and PA-18 Tail Feathers. I am in the process of installing a O-320 (using the Kenmore Air Harbor STC), JPI EDM900 engine monitor and Steve's Aircraft Gascolator. Below are the following mods I am thinking about doing and would appreciate any advice you guys can give.

View attachment 18345
​

1. The Kenmore Air Harbor STC calls for a Sensenich M74DM52 or McCauley 1A170GM7450 propeller but I have heard that the Borer prop is better to use. Is there a STC out there to put it on a 150 HP PA-12 with a Kenmore O-320 STC? Or is there a Catto prop I can use? If so whats the cost of the STC and a used prop for either?


2. Sutton Exhaust with cabin heater air-scoop and rear mounted oil cooler


3. Garmin 430W and everything to make the plane IFR


4. Seat belts with shoulder harnesses. What are good seat belts to get? Do I need the Automatic Inertia Reels? Do I need the attachment brackets from Atlee Dodge or can I just make my own? http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?option=com_djcatalog2&view=itemstable&cid=6:exhaustsystem&Itemid=53


5. Since I don't have a baggage compartment I plan on strapping gear to the rear seat. I worry about the gear shifting in flight or on landing and fouling the rear stick. Can I remove the rear stick by just unbolting it and than build an aluminum box to cover the remaining moving parts? Can this be done with a simple log book entry or do i need to get a STC/field approval?


6. Baby Bushwheel Tailwheel from Air Frames Alaska http://www.airframesalaska.com/Tailwheels-s/1814.htm


7. Steves Vented Booster Brake http://www.stevesaircraft.com/vbrake.php
or
Brake Booster from Air Frames Alaska http://www.airframesalaska.com/product-p/8400.htm

8. 3" Extend Gear like the Atlee Dodge http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?option=com_djcatalog2&view=itemstable&cid=9:landinggear&Itemid=53


9. Safety Cables like the Atlee Dodge http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?option=com_djcatalog2&view=itemstable&cid=9:landinggear&Itemid=53


10. Are the stock bungee's ok or is there a PA-12 STC for hydrosorbs or the carbon cubs AOSS? If so whats the cost of STC and parts?


11. Long Step like the Atlee Dodge http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?op...ew=item&id=62:longstep&cid=11:steps&Itemid=53


12. Refueling Step like the Atlee Dodge http://www.fadodge.com/index.php?op...em&id=63:refuelingstep&cid=11:steps&Itemid=53


13. Belly Pod. With the stock 18 gal tanks and really no baggage compartment I think a belly pod would be a good way to get a little more of both. Are they a good idea? I have looked at the Airglas web page. I cant afford a new one but if I can find a used one to buy/rent it might be possible for me to afford.


Is there anything I am missing that is a must have? Is there anything that's not worth doing? My funds are limited and I don't know that I will have the money or time to get everything on this list done. In the future I would like to completely rebuild the plane adding flaps, a bigger baggage compartment, gross weight increase and bigger fuel tanks.


Thank You -Shane

 

[N5126H]

BTW, can you put a 150HP in a 12 without adding flaps?

 

[skukum12]

I bought my 12 in '98. It had 150 and no flaps. Flew like a honey. Long mount, kenmore stc I believe.

 

[FdxLou]

Not really related, but something to consider.....if you have ever been convicted of a felony, or for that matter, a drunk driving conviction,
you will be turned around at the Canadian Border.

Lou

 

[algonquin]

The inertia reels don't have to be certified for airplanes that didn't have shoulder harness w/reels on the tcds, you can use the one for homebuilts. If you drill or weld the frame you need a field approval for the attachment. The lap belt needs to be certified, the shoulder belt also but may be a gray area. Ie. On a cessna that had a shoulder harness you can mount the inertia reel with the AN3 that goes into the factory mount point. There is a letter from the FAA on this, basically if it makes you safer and you don't mod the aircraft as original equipped your ok.

 

[mvivion]

If you are having to repair your original fuel tanks, I'd bite the bullet and replace them. There are a lot of stories out there of failed repairs on those soldered tanks......not good to have happen a long ways from home, or in the boonies.

i like Dakota's tanks...good size and quality made.

MTV