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Muffler removal and service; swinging the engine

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Registered User
WA
I managed to remove the exhaust manifolds from my O-320 PA-18, but I've been forced to conclude that it will be necessary to swing the engine in order to remove the muffler, because the exhaust pipe pretty much sticks right down through the mount.

So, two general topics that I'm interested in are #1), swinging the engine, and B), having the muffler rebuilt. Anyone want to write up any hints for either?

I've got the muffler completely loose at this point, I just can't get it out. Tomorrow I'll tow the plane over to the shop, and pay an A&P to swing the engine (not something I want to try myself the first time) so we can remove it. I'm expecting we'll use an engine hoist to make an accident less likely.

How much should I expect to spend on a rebuild? Recommended shops? How much do new stock mufflers cost? I can find out myself if anyone has the part number appropriate for a 1979 PA-18... Yes I know about the LEES setup, but I'm hoping to spend a lot less than the $3500 I'd end paying to get one of those to me.
 
Swinging the engine is a piece of cake!

Remove all the cowling, leave the nose bowl, and the 2 upper and 2 lower cowling supports. Hopefully all of your wiring and control cables come out of the left side of the fire wall. If so you should probally only have to disconnect the primer line and possibly the cabin heat cable at the box. Hook the engine with a hoist and just give it a small amount of tension. Take out the 2 mount bolts on the right side and swing that puppy out.

Nothing to it, save the money.

As for as a muffler rebuild, could not tell you, have not had to do that YET.
 
Don't forget the tach cable and the scat tube between the muffler shroud and the heat box...

Also, I had my exhaust system "repaired" and inspected by Dawley Aircraft Exhaust (800-338-5420) last year. The muffler was good but the stacks were in worse shape than I thought. They "repaired" (replaced) all of the stacks with the exception of one or two flanges for about around $350. It all came back clean, new looking, yellow tagged and included a bag of peanuts. They did a fine job.

BTW
This may be a dumb question but does everyone use a hoist while swinging the engine?
 
Yellow tag or no

Dawley (http://www.dawley.net) seems to be well regarded, but I ended up deciding to go with Custom Aircraft (http://www.customaircraft.com) because of a recommendation from my A&P. They don't yellow tag, but I expect the work to be of the highest quality, and I don't expect to need a yellow tag to reinstall the repaired part.

We did disconnect the tach cable from the tach, the B&C oil adapter made removing it from the engine more difficult. With the cable free, it was possible to swing the engine enough to get the muffler out. We did have it on an engine hoist.

I've heard of a limiting arm that can be installed. It allows the engine to swing, but only so far. I'm not sure, but I think it's intended to allow swinging without a hoist; it limits the engine from moving far enough to unbalance the plane on it's gear (I think). I sure wish I had one of those. Anyone got one that cares to comment?

Anyhow, I don't have such a limiting arm, and using a hoist seems like a really good idea.
 
The limiting arm was standard equipement, the tabs for it should still be on the upper right firewall mount. if your has been removed, you could use a rope to tie off the engine and keep it from swinging to far.
 
I just put a new muffler on my 18. It was $400.00 from Atlee Dodge.pak
 
muffler

:eek: I'd put on a new one to get away from the reoccuring AD for 1000 hrson muffler testing. :eek:
 
You still have to test the muffler. If it has under 1000 hrs its every 100 hrs and over 1000 hrs its every 50 hrs. Get a carbon dioxide detectot for $50 or $60 and test it that way. There is a provision in the AD for this test.

Steve
 
Your exactly right about the AD Steve, lots of people do not seem to know this, even some muffler manufacturers. BTW, has anyone even gotten a approval to run a muffler on a Cub with the flame tube removed to eliminate the AD, and make it much safer, (but a little louder), like on the Commanches? I would just have to guess :wink: that a Cub would have a little more power and never have to worry about a flame tube falling apart and clogging the tailpipe.
 
Doh!

My rebuilt muffler is due back tomorrow. Pak, that muffler you got for $400, is it subject to the 100 hour inspection AD? What is it, a PMA'ed stock replacement? Did it come with a new shroud for that price?

My rebuild was $275, and a new shroud was $175, for $450 total. The flame tube was rebuilt with a heavier guage of stainless, and a wire bale was installed to prevent blockage of the exit pipe. I don't have it yet, but when I get it, I'm sure it will be very nice.

If I missed the boat here, and should have bought a different muffler (but not one that runs nearly $3000, even it if does come with optimal stacks), maybe someone could be specific. Other than then LEES setup, how can you avoid the 100 hour inspections from the AD? Is there another STC'ed or PMA replacement that doesn't have the 100 hour inspection?

And assuming you do have to do the inspections, you can accomplish it without removing the muffler, right? Just take off the stacks and have a look, no need to swing the engine, right? Inspection with a CO detector? Where can I read that AD?

Interestingly enough, although my plane was in compliance wrt. this AD and the 100 hour inspections of the muffler, I still experienced the failure mode predicted (imagine that).

So anyhow, for the benefit of future owners experiencing a need to replace a muffler, what exactly are the options?
 
AD 68-05-01 PIPER: Amdt. 39-726. Applies to Piper J3, J4, J5,
PA- 11, PA-12, PA-14, PA-15, PA-16, PA-17, PA-18, PA-19, PA-20,
PA-22, and PA-24 type airplanes, except PA-24-400 and PA-24-260
aircraft serial numbers 24-4783, 24-4804 and subsequent.
Compliance required as indicated.
(a) For all airplanes except Models J3, J4, J5, PA-11
and those referenced in paragraphs (i) and (j), which have
exhaust mufflers with 950 or more hours time in service on the
effective date of this AD, comply with paragraph (e) within the
next 50 hours time in service and thereafter at intervals not to
exceed 50 hours time in service from the last inspection.
(b) For all airplanes except Models J3, J4, J5, PA-11
and those referenced in paragraphs (i) and (j), which have
exhaust mufflers with less than 950 hours time in service on the
effective date of this AD, comply with paragraph (e) within the
next 50 hours time in service, and thereafter at intervals not
to exceed 100 hours time in service from the last inspection.
After the exhaust muffler has accumulated 950 hours time in
service, comply with the inspection requirements of paragraph
(a).
(c) For all Models J3, J4, J5, and PA-11 airplanes
which have exhaust mufflers with 950 or more hours' time in
service on the effective date of this AD, comply with paragraph
(e) within the next 50 hours' time in service and thereafter at
intervals not to exceed 50 hours time in service from the last
inspection.
(d) For all Models J3, J4, J5, and PA-11 airplanes
which have exhaust mufflers with less than 950 hours' time in
service on the effective date of this AD, comply with paragraph
(e) prior to the accumulation of 1000 hours' time in service
and thereafter at intervals not to exceed 50 hours' time in
service.
(e) Inspect in accordance with paragraph (f), and
paragraph (g) if applicable, the engine exhaust muffler and
shroud assembly (including the internal baffle tube and tail
pipe), carburetor heat shroud and air duct, support braces,
clamps and brackets, exhaust stacks and manifolds. Do not alter
those mufflers incorporating an internal baffle tube to remove
the tube without prior FAA approval. (Piper Service Letter No.
324B describes the critical areas.)
(f) Remove muffler assembly, disconnect air ducts,
stacks, and shrouds as necessary, and visually inspect
exterior and interior surfaces with a probe light and mirror
for signs of cracks, corrosion, burn-throughs, heat damage,
collapsed stack, or weld separations. For carburetor type
engines, special attention should be given to the exhaust
stack under the carburetor heat shroud. Except during the
initial inspection, the muffler need not be removed from the
airplane, provided visual inspection with probe light and mirror
is made through the muffler tail pipe outlet and one end of the
muffler at the stack connection.

(g) If the inspection specified in paragraph (f) shows
that the exhaust stacks and internal baffle tube are in good
condition, but there are areas inside the muffler which cannot
be adequately inspected with a probe light and mirror,
accomplish one of the following:
(1) Accomplish a submerged pressure check of the muffler
and exhaust stack at 10 psi air pressure.
(2) Conduct a ground test using a carbon monoxide
indicator by heading the airplane into the wind, warming the
engine on the ground, advancing the throttle to full static
r.p.m. with cabin heat valves open, and taking readings of
the heated airstream inside the cabin at each outlet
(including rear seat heat outlet, if installed). Appropriate
sampling procedures applicable to the particular indicator
must be followed. If carbon monoxide concentration exceeds
.005 percent or if a dangerous reading is obtained on an
indicator not calibrated in percentages, inspect in accordance
with (f), and perform a submerged pressure check of the muffler
and exhaust stack at 10 psi air pressure before further
flight.
(3) Close and secure cabin heat valves at the firewall
until a complete muffler inspection in accordance with
paragraph (f) is accomplished.
(h) Replace or repair parts found to have the defects
listed in paragraph (f) before further flight, and thereafter
comply with the inspection requirements of paragraph (b) or
(d), whichever is applicable. Make welding repairs in
accordance with Advisory Circular AC 43.13-1 or an
FAA-approved equivalent. Pressure-check mufflers and stacks
that are repair-welded before reinstallation. (Care should be
exercised when reinstalling the exhaust system components to
prevent distortion or preloading of parts.)
(i) The repetitive inspection of paragraph (a) and (b)
may be discontinued when hollow muffler P/N 24506 or P/N
26385 is installed on Model PA-24 aircraft; and on Model
PA-24-250 aircraft when installed in combination with muffler
support Kit. No. 756775 (Service Letter No. 412A) or Kit No.
757058 (Service Letter No. 481) as applicable, or an equivalent
modification approved by the Chief, Engineering and Manufacturing
Branch, FAA, Eastern Region.
(j) For applicable PA-24-260 airplanes, the
repetitive inspections of paragraph (b) must be accomplished
at 50 hour intervals in lieu of 100 hour intervals until a
barrier device is installed in each muffler in accordance with
Piper Service Letter No. 518 or an equivalent modification
approved by the Chief, Engineering and Manufacturing Branch,
FAA, Eastern Region. Upon installation of the barrier devices,
the repetitive inspections of paragraph (a) and (b) may be
discontinued. (Piper Service Letters Nos. 324B, 324C, 412A, 481
and 518 cover this same subject.)
Effective March 31, 1968.
Revised March 5, 1969.


Here is the AD. Note the provision for using a carbon monoxide detector. I usually shine a flashlight up the tailpipe to check the flame tube and then pry the shroud open as far as possible, squirt a mixture of kids bubble soap/water all over it while someone blows shop air up the tail pipe.

Steve
 
exhaust AD

The confusion probably comes from the J3,4,5,PA11, they do not need inspection till 1000 hrs, but 18's and everything else does. Note that the AD talks about time in service, not time since OH or repair. So if you do not buy a new 0 time PMAed muffler and just get a yellow tagged one, or have yours repaired, you are still under the 50 hr inspection. The new muffler soarces I can think of are Atlee, Airframes Inc., and Univair. I think they are all about the same price (400 bucks). If you read down at the bottom you will find the provision to eliminate the AD on a Commanche if the muffler has no flame tube, and the tail pipe brace is installed. I would be very interested if anyone has ever gotten this extended to a Cub. This AD has always been a big pain in the ass. Also, when doing the inspection, poke the flame tube through the tail pipe with a long screw driver or something to see if it is loose.
 
Confusing PMA

Since my 1979 PA-18 is about 400 SNEW, I have a while before I'll have to go to 50 hour inspections. The bit about the hollow mufflers is interesting, but what's even more interesting is that you can get around the AD if you have a Commanche, and barriers (wire bales?) have been installed. It seems like there should be a simple way to comply in such a fashion for other Pipers, but I guess that would make too much sense.

So, no one knows of a muffler, other than the $3000 LEES setup, that will get around the need for removal of the stacks? When you spend $400 for a new PMA'ed muffler, do you get a new shroud?

Assuming you do get a shroud for that price, I guess I spent more than I had to. I'll console myself with the notion that the heavier guage metal used for my rebuild is worth some piece of mind.
 
The $400.00 was for the muffler only. I'll assume the shroud is OK or it would not have left the shop. I think MD covered the AD business very well and I expect that I'll still have to comply with this AD. I had a muffler go bad one time in a pretty critical situtation so I really do not consider this AD bogus....now the oil pump, crank shaft(320 B2B and 360) and strut ADs are another story.pak
 
It's a good AD

I didn't mean to imply that the AD is bogus; just that compliance with it by no means assures you that you won't experience a failure, as did I (and pak too). Giving your exhaust system a good examination any time is a good idea.

I'm really surprised that LEES is the first company to address this. How do they alleviate the need for the inspection? Is there an approval basis there that could be applied to a less exotic system? Hey, maybe I should invest some money in an aviation business! (That's a joke.)

The LEES setup does look pretty good, and if I had just a little more money laying around, I'd be really tempted. Good thing I'm too poor.
 
Re: It's a good AD

I didn't mean to imply that the AD is bogus; just that compliance with it by no means assures you that you won't experience a failure, as did I (and pak too). Giving your exhaust system a good examination any time is a good idea.

I'm really surprised that LEES is the first company to address this. How do they alleviate the need for the inspection? Is there an approval basis there that could be applied to a system involving only the muffler, and keeping the stock stacks? Hey, maybe I should invest some money in an aviation business! (That's a joke.)

The LEES setup does look pretty good, and if I had just a little more money laying around, I'd be really tempted. Good thing I'm too poor.
 
You can't get a new muffler with shrouds for 400 bucks. Interesting thing on a Univair muffler. They do sell a complete new muffler with shrouds installed for $$$, but if you buy the muffler and shrouds from them all seperately, and slide the shrouds on yourself, it is MUCH cheaper.
 
Except during the
initial inspection, the muffler need not be removed from the
airplane, provided visual inspection with probe light and mirror
is made through the muffler tail pipe outlet and one end of the
muffler at the stack connection.

I read this to say on the first inspection after the AD is issued. I don't remove the muffler. Do what you feel is safe. I have found many a small crack with the soap bubble method.

Steve
 
I use a small shop vac with hose in the blower side. Duct tape the hose to exhaust pipe, remove the shroud, and use the soap bubble test. You can be surprised how a small crack blows a big bubble.
 
I forgot to mention that the shop vac needs to be clean, so that you don't blow dirt into the system.
 
It is quite possible that most cylinder work on pipers is due to the many times AP's have removed the stacks to inspect the mufflers! You should be able to take loose the shroud is suspect look up the pipe, do the CO test and put a long Screw driver in the stack and check for looseness all without removing the stacks! I have seen more oversize/ helicoiled exhaust studs from removing them so many times that I am convinced that it is (not necessary to do this).

Atlee's Mufflers are stamped with the need to inspect every 100hrs. if my memory serves me correctly?

Personally I would love to see the flame cones removed to solve the problem. the Noise cancelling headsets will be more justified then.

Tim
 
I was just completing annual insp on my Cub. The muffler made by Atlee Dodge has been on for 1600 hrs and looks almost like new. No cracks or wrinkles in flametube. The one we had before had to be replaced due to cracks in flamepipe after just 460 hrs. (Univair). The end baffles look different, Atlee's probably takes better care of expansion of flame tube.

I made up a muffler shroud out of .020 stainless ( similar to a Citabria)after I had to replace the original aluminum ones due to cracking and rattling. It's a bit heavier but has been completely maintenance free for 1600 hrs

Pictures added
 
Back in service

We got my rebuilt muffler reinstalled today. By "we", I mean the A&P I pay to help me stay safe, and myself. Couple of things:
The new muffler was built (at least for the flame tube) of 0.040 stainless, rather than the stock 0.032.
The new muffler lacks a central barrier in the flame tube. In the un-rebuilt muffler, there was a sort of bulkhead, dividing the flame tube into two halfs. You can see it in the photo I put up in the gallery that shows a view looking down the flame tube of my damaged muffler. Post rebuild, this bulkhead is absent, and the flame tube is open from one end to the other, you can see straight through the muffler. I asked about this, and the explanation I got was that the removal of the bulkhead results in a longer more spread out "hot zone" in the flame tube, versus a more concentrated centralized "hot zone" that results when the bulkhead is present.

So, it's not a tuned system (I still really do wish I had the cash lying around to get one of those trick LEES setups), but I guess it is improved over "stock".

Mr. A&P says inspection up the pipe, and in one end from where the stacks connect, plus a pressurization and soap bubble test, is all that's needed for the AD.
 
Mufflers and shrouds

Univair and Airframes Inc. use .035 wall thickness on their mufflers. Atlee Dodge uses .049 wall thickness on his mufflers. Atlee's muffler is about 2 pounds heavier then the .035 ones. I went with Airframes stacks because they have better flanges then Univair's and used Atlee's muffler and shrouds. Atlee's shrouds are two piece and held together with two hose clamps. They are very easy to take apart for inspection. Univair shrouds have two drive on side stays and are harder to get on and off. Univair shrouds also seem to crack very easy. Still weighing the benifit of the LEE exhaust system. $3000.00 and 8 lbs more vs 75 to 100 rpm gain and no instections. I might have to try one on my next project. Crash
 
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