More info on Mountain Goat....

[CptKelly]

Notice the heater/defroster are not standard??? Cost for these two things are $1000. I didn't know any aircraft came without a heater, especially in Alaska...


Bill Montagne here.
Working with several investors to get FAA certification going.

To whom it may concern;

Due to requests by customers, we have been asked to arrange a deposit program in which customers can lock in a purchase position for a Mountain Goat aircraft. We are building complete experimental planes while seeking funding for certification and increasing production. With requests to purchase 1,565 planes, we are seeking funding to address this high demand. Kit planes are not available at this time, but will be in the future. Those interested in kit planes should check our web site occasionally.



DEPOSIT FOR MANUFACTURE POSITION

OF ONE MOUNTAIN GOAT EXPERIMENTAL PLANE



On this date _____________________________



Name of purchaser_____________________________________________ is depositing into Montagne Aircraft LLC. account the amount of $ 3,000.00 ( three thousand dollars ) for a position in order to have a Mountain Goat experimental aircraft built. The deposit will put this purchaser in front of future manufacture positions providing that purchaser conforms to all terms and details of the Purchase Agreement in the manner of time required by Montagne Aircraft LLC. Purchaser will be notified within thirty days of receipt of deposit, what manufacture position this deposit covers. This position is transferable to any other party. The deposit is fully refundable up until finalizing the Purchase Order. This deposit will be deducted from the down payment of the actual purchase order when that order is made. Purchaser of this position will be notified by mail or email when manufacture will commence. Within 30 days of that notice, all terms in the Purchase Agreement of the aircraft will be finalized, and all deposits will be made. It is anticipated that manufacture will commence in blocks of ten orders or more, but availability of certain parts, or the company may determine a different schedule or block of orders. All prices are subject to change before finalizing the purchase order for the aircraft.



Purchaser signature________________________________________________



Street or Post office box____________________________________________



City____________________ State_________________ Zip Code___________



Country___________________________



Montagne Aircraft LLC.

P.O. Box 2842

Palmer, Ak. 99645-2842





By Bill Montagne


PURCHASE AGREEMENT FOR ONE COMPLETE
MOUNTAIN GOAT EXPERIMENTAL PLANE


This agreement is being entered into between Montagne Aircraft LLC and the Buyer,



________________________________, on this___________day of _________________, 20____. Montagne Aircraft LLC is selling one Mountain Goat Kit Plane, fully assembled with 4130 Steel frame and ( other modifications ), as stated in Exhibit ? B ? for the sum of $150,000.00, plus the cost of any extra?s or additions. Buyer must deposit $85,500.00 plus the cost of extras and additions to start manufacture of this aircraft. All deposits must be made in the Montagne Aircraft LLC account. The Purchaser will be notified in writing when the wings are assembled, fuselage and tail are welded, and the machined parts are complete. Within 15 days of this notification, the Purchaser will be required to deposit 25 % of the total purchase price in our account. The final 18 % of the purchase price will be due within 15 days of completion or upon delivery, whichever comes first. Options may be added at a later time than this agreement, and those costs will be determined and added at that time. We will notify you what your serial numbers are for the fuselage and wings after your deposit is received. All purchased items are your property as soon as they are paid for. This deposit is transferable, but is not refundable.

All pieces for the Mountain Goat will be produced to the best of our ability with, in our opinion, the best materials available. This plane is not FAA certified. We are not liable for what you or anyone does with your Mountain Goat plane. It is your obligation to seek out proper flight training, and maintain your aircraft properly. Do not exceed limits for Normal Category FAA requirements. The pilot in command is solely responsible for operating the aircraft within those limits, or the pilot?s limits, whichever is the lesser. If the aircraft is not maintained properly, the pilot in command should make the necessary repairs and adjustments before flight.



Purchaser signature____________________________________________________



_______________________________________________________________________







Seller Montagne Aircraft LLC_________________________________________



P.O. Box 2842

Palmer, Alaska 99645-2842 907-745-7597

All items without price are standard equipment
EXHIBIT ? B ?


1. Flight instruction

2. Float Mounts, Lift Fittings and ski mounts $600.00

3. Doors, Both Sides, with Full Windows

4. Titanium fuselage frame, Wide Fuselage $ 15,000.00

5. 4130 Steel fuselage frame, Wide Fuselage Standard

6. Single lift struts, Titanium, with Aluminum Fairing $ 3,000.00

7. 26 X 10.5 Goodyear tires

8. Individual parking brakes

9. Removable rear seat $ 200.00

10. Tapered tubular spring landing gear

11. Counterbalanced crankshaft on IO 360 engine $2,600.00

12. McCauley fixed pitch prop

13. Light weight starter motor

14. K & N racing air filter, washable element

15. Ram Air Intake with Alternate Source

16. 4 into 1 tuned exhaust with merge collector

17. Oil Cooler

18. Electric fuel boost pump

19. 65 gallon fuel capacity

20. Cloth Seats standard

21. Leather Seats $600.00

22. Scott 3200 Tail Wheel Standard

23. Wide tail wheel $ 1,000.00

24. Heavy duty Titanium tail wheel spring $ 150.00

25. Vision Microsystems VM 1000 engine management display

26. Altimeter

27. Airspeed

28. Compass

29. Vertical Speed Indicator $300.00

30. B & C 40 amp Alternator Standard

31. B & C high output alternator $1,000.00

32. light weight battery

33. Portable ACK ELT

34. Transponder

35. ACK Mode C

36. Moving map GPS / Com

37. Nav lights and landing light

38. Electric Turn & Bank gyro. RC Allen $550.00

39. Artificial Horizon, Electric RC Allen $2,015.00

40. Defroster $300.00

41. Heater $700.00

42. Inboard fuel caps for floats $550.00

43. Gun / Antler rack $400.00 ea

44. Metal belly, Standard

45. Cargo Door $500.00

46. Grab Handle on Cowling per Pair $500.00

47. Intercom Call for price

48. Constant Speed Propeller Call for price

49. FADEC ( engine control ) $ 14,000.00

 

[flysurge]

requests for 1500+ airplanes. OK thats believable

 

[sj]

Actually, it may not be so unbelievable given the fact it was in a TV piece on bush flying a while back. Even my father-in-law told me about this airplane that could out perform any other. When I tried to explain that my 180hp supercub would kick it's rear, he said, "well, you need to see this program". When he dropped us off at the airport, I told him (those words no pilot should say) "watch this". I took the last intersection (about 250' left) at KJLN, into a 15kt headwind and was up up and away in about 50 feet. Only time he has ever called me on the phone was after seeing that... Mountain Goat my %$$

sj

 

[Steve Pierce]

The kids want to know why I am laughing out loud. :lol:

 

[cobblemaster]

I'll wait and buy a used one after they get the bugs rattled out.

Do you own a airplane now?

 

[CraigH]

The kids want to know why I am laughing out loud. :lol:

No kidding. Why go to Alaska when we can get ripped off right here in Texas?

 

[Steve Pierce]

Craig, Is that fuel running out of your avatar?

 

[cub_driver]

I am sure the folks at Mountian Goat aircraft are working hard to build airplanes. They have claims of titanium fuselages but I don't know of anyone who has seen one yet (would love to see someone build cub tail feathers and fuselages out of titanium). I did read the numbers they had posted but they of a partialy loaded aircraft and never showed the numbers of a fully loaded aircraft. I think they have a long why to go before they truly become a aircraft manufacter in the mean time I will keep flying my cub.

Cub_Driver

 

[jnorris]

We are building complete experimental planes while seeking funding for certification and increasing production.

Notice that they don't mention what experimental category the planes are certificated in. Seeing as they are building complete aircraft for sale, they cannot be licensed as experimental/amateur-built. This leaves experimental/exhibition as the best of several not-so-good options. Further, the only good fit within experimental/exhibition would be group 4 ("Other Aircraft"), unless the folks at Mountain Goat can convince the FAA that it's a "performance competition aircraft" and get them in group one.

This makes a MAJOR difference in the operation of the aircraft, because group four aircraft are restricted to landings and takeoffs only at their home base except when going to an exhibition that is listed on the aircraft's program letter. Group 1 aircraft can land at any airport within their proficiency flying area (typically 300 nm radius from home base) when not going to a registered exhibition.

Either way, the aircraft owner must file an annual program letter with the local FSDO, and must stay within the proficiency flying area except when going to/from an exhibition that's listed on the program letter. If the airplane is in group 4, being restricted to landing and taking off only at home base except for going to/from the exhibitions really limits the utility of a "bush" airplane.

I'd suggest anyone who's seriously considering buying one of these birds carefully check into the certification of the aircraft. You might not be getting what you think you're paying for.

Joe

 

[skukum12]

I've seen the titanium goat fuselages. Titanium is far to cost ineffective for Cubs. Maybe for a one off.

 

[dave]

A friend sent this link recently. It contains a new article on Bill Montagne's Mountain Goat.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/aplocal_story.asp?category=6420&slug=AK Super Bush Plane

 

[pzinck]

Reply

Those are fighting words,calling supercubs junk.Steve if montagne posts on your site,please move it to the rant section,so i dont get into trouble.I must be nuts to work extra to pay for flying these junks.Looks like another cub copy,like the husky.Ill keep my money on gordon taylor,jamoneau,and wm piper.P.s. If you watch his video,you will see most cubs will get off better than that.

 

[mvivion]

The article was in the Sunday Fairbanks paper as well. I'll give Montange credit: He's a great sales person.

Oh, wait, he's been going to have this certified any second now for what, fifteen years?

Anybody that puts money up on the claims that he makes without verifying his "data" a bit deserves to lose their behind.

I mean: pzink, even a Husky could whup this thing's arse at gross.

Har Mateys, couldn't resist,

MTV

 

[Big AK]

Until about a month ago, I was sure that this Montagne fellow was full of patuti.

I got a report from an individual that has spent alot of time in the goat and is quite impressed. I'm not sure of this individual's Cub experience level.

He said that next to a 160 horse Cub with one aboard, the Goat will get in the air shorter(with two souls, fuel, and who really knows how much load), and will climb away from the Cub both steeper and faster. The Cub in question is owned by a guy in the valley (Mat-Su Valley, Alaska) who is having a Goat built for him.

I've also heard from some 185 jockeys that the goat is able to stay with them in cruise. All of this with a fixed-pitch prop.

I will wait til I've been in the thing before I open my mouth against the guy again.

Anyone else out there with direct experience or who's made an attempt to contact Bill M. and get a checkout??

 

[cubunltd]

Hey anyone know of a repair facility that can weld their titanium fuselage if it gets damaged? Titanium has to be welded in an inert atmosphere otherwise it's junk. Are they welding them in an inert atmosphere to begin with? I used to weld for USAir and I can weld titanium, but I certainly don't want a tubing fuselage made out it.

 

[Christina Young]

Is there a place to go to see a MG? I will be in Palmer in May, and would like to check one out.

Are any of them currently made out of titanium, or is this something that is planned in the future? Titanium weighs about half as much as steel, and won't corrode. Very hard & strong, but also very brittle - I had some of my dive gear custom made out of it, had a couple of cracking problems in the past at stress points. Around here (NJ) it costs ~ $32 per lb for tubing.

 

[Cubus Maximus]

In the for-what-it's-worth department, I know at least one guy in ANC who is a long time Cub owner (Joe Lomonaco). He checked out in the Goat (3 years ago). Loved the Goat and planned to sell his 160hp Cub when (and if) it became available.

Brad

 

[pzinck]

Maybe

Maybe the goat is good,but in his article he calls cubs junk.I think that is a strong statement for a palne that has done as much work as a cub.

 

[T.J.]

delete

 

[pak]

As with many of you I first saw the MG at Gulkana in the very early '90s. Not much has changed since then. Same MG and same talk. I wonder if his numbers are at gross weight as are the cub's. The cub certainly has room for improvment, but on balance economics/performance it is working for many. I have to put the MG in the 'I'll believe it when I see it' catagory.pak

 

[mvivion]

TJ,

This is the issue I have with the propaganda. There are always a few little loose ends with this airplane it seems. Some years ago, I asked him about something on the plane, and questioned whether he could get it certified that way, and he said, "Oh, no, the FAA would never permit that, but we can just change it when we go into production". Okay, so why wouldn't you fix it before you demonstrated it, and what will this thing actually look like, weigh and perform like as a production airplane?

Gross weight is whatever he says it is--its experimental. Build your own airplane and you too can establish a gross weight. And the experimental TC issue is very real. The only way he could get one into a reasonable category would be to homebuild it himself, then offer it for sale as a homebuilt experimental. Maybe he didn't get far enough into the regs to figure that issue out yet.

Last I heard, he would not let other people fly the airplane, but he would take other people for a ride in it. Has this changed? I know at least one pilot who was seriously interested in flying it, and he told him he could ride in the back with no controls, but he couldn't fly it. The guy said thanks anyway, I'll stick with what I got.

If he's changed his mind on that, it would be interesting to hear from someone who HAS ACTUALLY FLOWN the airplane, as opposed to these, "I have a friend, who said it was really cool", etc.

He's looking for someone to put up a huge chunk of change to fund a factory, which is fine, but I think his production numbers and the numbers of people he purports to hire are pretty ridiculous. His performance numbers need to be examined in that context, or documented by some sort of certification process, as opposed to "it stalls at 23 mph". Based on the same data acquisition process, I've got a Cessna 170 that stalls at 0 mph. That's what the indicator says, anyway. With ten gallons of fuel, and just me in it.

Last I heard, he'd built two of them, but may be more now. It would be interesting to hear from someone who has actually flown one.

Anybody out there?

MTV

 

[cubunltd]

Titanium becomes very brittle if welded incorrectely.It also does not like chlorinated solvents, so you have to be careful what you use. titanium also has a relatively low modulus of elasticity, which means that, given equal dia. and wall thickness tubes, the titanium tube will bend more. this means that the titanium tube has to be either bigger in dia. or wall thickness to have the same rigidity as 4130 steel. Even though titanium is stronger than steel , the disadvantages of all of the above. far outweigh the light weight and strength.
I would like to know how they are welding the titanium. Do they have a fully enclosed inert atmosphere chamber or what.

 

[StewartB]

Montagne Aircraft TELEPHONE INQUIRIES: (907) 745 - 7597

Montagne Aircraft EMAIL INQUIRIES (CLICK FOLLOWING LINK): mtgoatacft@ak.net


There you go, boys. Now you can call him. Talk's cheap.

SB

 

[Cubus Maximus]

Hey Mike,

I have a friend who said the Goat was really cool! 8)

Why would you ever want anything more than that?

Brad

 

[CptKelly]

MG?

I'm pretty much with TJ and MV on this one. Considering the complexity and cost, I seriously doubt the MG will ever get certified. About the only way we will see any numbers of MG's would be if they were made into a 51% rule kit. As far as performance numbers, anyone can claim anything. When you see the actual performance reports of several MG's, then you could believe them. Until that time, I remain a skeptic.
If the MG designer was smart, he would get the 51% kits going quickly. Then he would have the money for the certification process, and generate widespread demand by the planes being flown and discussed in actual flying circles.

Just my 2 bits worth (inflation, you know?)

Mike

 

[Crash]

What I gather from talking with Bill at the Airmans Show and over an hour on the phone. Some of this stuff just doesn't ad up in my book.

1) He moved to Alaska 4 years ago and hasn't worked (a regular job) a day since he arrived.

2) Has taken quite a bit of deposit money on two planes. The customers have nothing to show for the money.

3) Says his Mt Goat will fly circles around a 180hp PA-18. Slow flys down to 25 mph. Cruises at 160 mph. Continual climb at over 3,000 foot per minute. All of this with a stock fuel injected O-360-180hp engine out of a low end Mooney. The prop by the way is a fixed pitch Sensenich 76/66 pitch. Yes that's right, 66 pitch!

4) Said he took the rate of climb indicator out because it scared him how high the climb numbers were. Said it was over 3,000' per minute.

5) Said a GPS won't work in a plane to tell how fast it is going or climbing. Said the satellites get confused. You must use an ultralight airspeed indicator mounted on the lift strut to get real numbers. He said this after I asked if I could bring my Garmin 196 along for a demo ride.

6) Said his wife left him and screwed him over. Knowing women, we can all believe this one.

7) Said he sent money to material suppliers but they went out of business and kept his money.

8) I asked him how many complete planes he had delivered and were flying, he sad "two". "One to a guy in Pennsylvania and one to a guy in New York". I searched the FAA data base and can only find one Mountain Goat, period. It belongs to Bill.

He's a nice guy to talk to, but I don't know as I'd give him $50K or so as a deposit. You might just be buying his groceries for the next year. Crash

 

[Luke_theDrifter]

I agree with CRASH, plus I had a similar experince.

Interestingly enough a Doctor friend of mine from here, Dillingham AK, has worked extensively with Montagne. Apparently the guy has some background in dealing w/ road-race cars before diving into the airplane business to build a machine "better than a Cub".

Heck....why does EVERYONE compare to a CUb then?

Anyway, my doctor freind put up a considerable amount of doug$ to have a MG built. One thing lead to another, my buddy was lifted for some more doug$ under the pretense that he'd have a titanium fuselage built.

Then one day last summer a new planed showed up right here in Dillingham and it was the buzz of the town. Realize Dlg. is 350 air-miles off the road system, a small bush town.
Of course I couldn't wait to see this new Goat, included the titanium frame. Well, after some quick-talk it became apparent that this was only the "proto-type", and my buddies new plane wouldn't be done for some time.
Still excited, I hovered around the machine and ask if I could take it for a ride around the patch. Heck...you would have thought I told him I wanted to make love to his wife! So I politey ask if I could go for a ride, and of course offered to pay all expence, incluing his time. No deal....he knew I flew Super Cubs and there was NO WAY I was going for a ride!

My buddy is out somewhere around 80k at this point, I'm sure there are others out there in the same boat. I smell class-action lawsuit coming, and view this is all talk, and LOTS of it, with little action!

Besides, like someone else......calling a CUB, a proven machine, a pile of Junk is flat wrong. TJ made a good point....maybe when I'm need of another Cub I'll call him to build be a new one, only 140k

Good Flying...>Byron

 

[mvivion]

As I recall, many years ago, Mr. M. showed up at the Gulkana Air show with his "original" Mt Goat, which was purported at least as superior as his current version, but no titanium fuselage.

He flew in the short t/o contest. I seem to recall he got beat by at least one box stock Cub, and several other modified Cubs. Or something like that. He didn't do well, at least.

MTV

 

[Ursa Major]

As I recall, many years ago, Mr. M. showed up at the Gulkana Air show with his "original" Mt Goat, which was purported at least as superior as his current version, but no titanium fuselage.

MTV

I was at the same Gulkana show and snapped a picture of the Mountain Goat (N101MG). He brought the same (N101MG) airplane to the AK trade show last spring. At least it sure looked like the same airplane. I suppose it could have been a different plane, but if it was , why the same N number? Something smells fishy.

 

[Crash]

I searched the FAA data base upside down and backward, from every angle to give this guy the benefit of the doubt. There is only one Mountain Goat listed by the FAA, and you guessed it, N101MG. Crash