Looking at a PA-18. What’s it worth? Educated opinions welcome

[Short Bus]

I’m looking at purchasing a 1954 SC. I need some informed, unbiased (cause I really want this thing), educated input.

The good:
New fabric. Ceconite 102/Poly Fiber process
800 hrs on 0-320. New plugs. New lightweight starter
Hartzell Constant speed propeller (0 hrs since overhaul)
Cleveland brakes, new tires (and some very cool wheel pants. Scott tw
Cub Crafters STOL Kit (ailerons come down with second notch of flaps)
Very good plexi
Impeccable logs/records
Owned by same man since 1974. Always kept in enclosed hanger.
Annual complete 9/2024

The not so good:
1500 gross wt (Will be one of first things on the list if purchased)
Hasn’t flown in 3 years (cylinders looked great. I know you can’t see everything but they looked great). All cyl compressions are good). Located central NC (fairly humid here)
No radios. ADSB out comes with, but not installed yet
Needs bungees
Fuel leak stain on left side (noticeable but doesn’t bother me) Leak was fixed
No X brace
No Shoulder harness (yet)
Plane was flown regularly up until about 3 years ago. Not flown since due to health issues.

Non-tangibles:
Plane will remain where it’s lived since 1974 with VERY reasonable hanger fee. Not climate controlled but enclosed.


That’s the Cliff Notes. I understand there’s potentially a lot more variables but hoping for some educated input; it will be much appreciated. Thanks

 

[KevinJ]

320 constant speed, 1500 gross, cubcrafters droop kit, wheel pants. Might be a unicorn! Odd but cool. I bet there’s not another in the world….for a reason. Better be cheap but if you like it, I like it. Wonder how fast it is?

 

[KevinJ]

What’s it weigh?

 

[Short Bus]

What’s it weigh?

1150

 

[RedOwlAirfield]

I can't answer your actual question, but something jumped out at me and I thought I'd mention it - just in case it's been overlooked.

800 on the motor - but 0 on the prop? My ( admittedly way too suspicious - with apologies to Elvis) mind jumps immediately to a prop strike. Especially given it sat for three years - and now it's getting sold. It's happened before that a pilot let it sit while getting healthy - only to ground loop on the first flight back and decide to sell. Now I'm not saying that's what happened here. I'll bet I'm just being cynical. But I've been around enough airplane purchases to know that aircraft owners are not necessarily any more ethical anyone else when trying to get your money. Certainly there are others that make the Pope look like a sleazebag. But unless you know which one you're dealing with it's always wise to plan on the worst and let people surprise you. At least that way if you're wrong you get to be happy about it.

Apologies for creeping the thread in a different direction. My mind just went there - and if I hadn't said anything and the above turned out to be the case I'd feel terrible. I wish you all the best in the deal.

 

[Short Bus]

I can't answer your actual question, but something jumped out at me and I thought I'd mention it - just in case it's been overlooked.

800 on the motor - but 0 on the prop? My ( admittedly way too suspicious - with apologies to Elvis) mind jumps immediately to a prop strike. Especially given it sat for three years - and now it's getting sold. It's happened before that a pilot let it sit while getting healthy - only to ground loop on the first flight back and decide to sell. Now I'm not saying that's what happened here. I'll bet I'm just being cynical. But I've been around enough airplane purchases to know that aircraft owners are not necessarily any more ethical anyone else when trying to get your money. Certainly there are others that make the Pope look like a sleazebag. But unless you know which one you're dealing with it's always wise to plan on the worst and let people surprise you. At least that way if you're wrong you get to be happy about it.

Apologies for creeping the thread in a different direction. My mind just went there - and if I hadn't said anything and the above turned out to be the case I'd feel terrible. I wish you all the best in the deal.

RedOwl,

All is well and thanks for the concern.

The prop was just overhauled because it was time. That’s it. Nothing nefarious going on here. I’ve known this plane (and its owner) my entire life

 

[RaisedByWolves]

The last 1500 lb cub I converted, the seller said it only needs the cabane vee fittings on the gear reamed out except the top of the vee hit the fittings. Engine, boot cowl, floors came off, and welded new fittings on after cutting fabric, new gear, wheels, brakes… expensive annual

 

[DENNY]

What do you want to do with it? Looks 0K for a weekend local fly around plane. look like a money pit if you want a heavy hauler working or STOL cub. Lycoming engines don't like to set , so when was last rebuild? How new was fabric?
DENNY

 

[Short Bus]

The last 1500 lb cub I converted, the seller said it only needs the cabane vee fittings on the gear reamed out except the top of the vee hit the fittings. Engine, boot cowl, floors came off, and welded new fittings on after cutting fabric, new gear, wheels, brakes… expensive annual

Ouch! That scares me but it’s what I need to hear. I need the new vee and the 4 tubes welded for the 1750 gw stc.
Is that a common problem when reaming the attach points? Thanks

 

[Short Bus]

What do you want to do with it? Looks 0K for a weekend local fly around plane. look like a money pit if you want a heavy hauler working or STOL cub. Lycoming engines don't like to set , so when was last rebuild? How new was fabric?
DENNY

Not working with it. Just boring holes, fly ins and weekend camping trips. New 0 time engine was installed late 1970s. Recovered just a few years ago. Always in enclosed hanger

 

[Bill Rusk]

This sounds all wrong. ............ very low useful load. Why a CS prop on a 1500 cub? Are you sure about the Cub Crafters drop aileron system? Do you have the STC and are you sure it is signed off and legal? I am probably wrong as you say impeccable logs, but this just does not feel right to me. Just my opinion.

Bill

 

[Short Bus]

This sounds all wrong. ............ very low useful load. Why a CS prop on a 1500 cub? Are you sure about the Cub Crafters drop aileron system? Do you have the STC and are you sure it is signed off and legal? I am probably wrong as you say impeccable logs, but this just does not feel right to me. Just my opinion.

Bill

First of all, big fan of yours Bill !! Thanks for all your posts!
As far as why…I’m not sure. But, the owner operated it for years back and forth to his mountain house with a very small grass strip. It suited his needs.
All stcs and paperwork are in order. I know it’s a bit of an odd duck but it’s definitely legal. Thanks for the concern and voice of caution. CJ

 

[cubdrvr]

Interesting prop. Why the tow hook? Banners? Gliders?

 

[Short Bus]

That’s a good question. No idea. I’ll try and find out

 

[DENNY]

Without pulling a jug to inspect I would consider a 50 year lycoming 0320 in need of rebuild before much more flying. So figure 20-30 grand for the engine. If that is original 70 year old gear add another 2-3 grand, 7 if you want fancy shocks that are not needed for easy flying. Radio 2-3 grand, ELT 600 bucks, X brace 2 grand, Engine monitor for that new engine 5 grand. Tubes and new V I am not sure but lets say 3 grand on a good day. Now you will have a 600 legal load cub. Pilot 200 lbs, Passenger 200lbs, full fuel 216 lbs, wait!!! no tent, emergency gear, food, wine??? Ya while you are cutting and painting fabric for other stuff do the 2,000 lb wing STC, 6 grand or a bit more. So lets say 50-60 grand by the time you are done. Might get by a lot cheaper if the cam/engine is good but Hope is never a good plan. Overall it is a good plane for a low time taildragger pilot because you chances of bending it are high. Put a beater prop on it get the X brace and learn to fly, chance of getting it on its nose, ground loop, flipping is high in the first 500 hours (I was advanced and got my first prop below 500 hours) so that would be the time to fix everything. Cub prices are coming down, with that engine and lack of basic safety upgrades I would say 60 grand is a fair price. Pretty fabric does not make a plane fly!!!! Hopefully you have a IA that will be doing all the upgrades if not go find one and do not look at another aircraft until she/he approves and gives you a good price on all the upgrades needed. So 55-60 grand is what I would consider a good price in todays market.
DENNY

 

[RaisedByWolves]

Ouch! That scares me but it’s what I need to hear. I need the new vee and the 4 tubes welded for the 1750 gw stc.
Is that a common problem when reaming the attach points? Thanks

The one I did already had the tubes in the back, I think you need to find a good tig welder, you’re going to have to cut fabric, and have an ugly patch there. It aggravates me these people don’t do these mods when they have the fabric off.

 

[Steve Pierce]

How was the O-320 installed without the higher gross weight increase. If it was done via an STC I would read that STC because all O-320 STCs that I have read require the gross weight increase.

What is the galvanized box under the instrument panel, behind the firewall?

Don't use flaps in gusty or cross winds with that flap/aileron modification. You lose aileron control that is needed. There is a reason the mod is no longer sold.

 

[skywagon8a]

What is the galvanized box under the instrument panel, behind the firewall?

That is the altered firewall to make room for the prop governor.

 

[Steve Pierce]

That is the altered firewall to make room for the prop governor.

Ah, wonder what that paperwork looks like. All the constant speed props I have seen on Cubs were STC'd and had the front mounted governor.

 

[skywagon8a]

Ah, wonder what that paperwork looks like. All the constant speed props I have seen on Cubs were STC'd and had the front mounted governor.

I haven't seen the paperwork, but I do know the original STC for the constant speed props were with rear mounted governors. A front mounted governor would also require an STC for an engine model change. Same on the 7GCBC. Don't remember whether that needed the box though.

 

[Short Bus]

Without pulling a jug to inspect I would consider a 50 year lycoming 0320 in need of rebuild before much more flying. So figure 20-30 grand for the engine. If that is original 70 year old gear add another 2-3 grand, 7 if you want fancy shocks that are not needed for easy flying. Radio 2-3 grand, ELT 600 bucks, X brace 2 grand, Engine monitor for that new engine 5 grand. Tubes and new V I am not sure but lets say 3 grand on a good day. Now you will have a 600 legal load cub. Pilot 200 lbs, Passenger 200lbs, full fuel 216 lbs, wait!!! no tent, emergency gear, food, wine??? Ya while you are cutting and painting fabric for other stuff do the 2,000 lb wing STC, 6 grand or a bit more. So lets say 50-60 grand by the time you are done. Might get by a lot cheaper if the cam/engine is good but Hope is never a good plan. Overall it is a good plane for a low time taildragger pilot because you chances of bending it are high. Put a beater prop on it get the X brace and learn to fly, chance of getting it on its nose, ground loop, flipping is high in the first 500 hours (I was advanced and got my first prop below 500 hours) so that would be the time to fix everything. Cub prices are coming down, with that engine and lack of basic safety upgrades I would say 60 grand is a fair price. Pretty fabric does not make a plane fly!!!! Hopefully you have a IA that will be doing all the upgrades if not go find one and do not look at another aircraft until she/he approves and gives you a good price on all the upgrades needed. So 55-60 grand is what I would consider a good price in todays market.
DENNY

Thanks Denny. That’s the kind of info I’m looking for to help me make an informed decision.

 

[porcuypine]

Unicorn indeed!

That prop is the 81X
There is a 100 hour AD that mandates a full hub disassembly for inspection. Parts are not available as it is no longer supported by Hartzell. But it does explain the zero time

Installation requires a governor of course and to make that happen required a dynafocal mount and suitably suffixed engine.

I don’t know about the 18 but the 81X is on the TCDS of the 22 and was popular with the 22S, can’t imagine why as that prop is a proper boat anchor and a tripacer is nose heavy enough on floats with a 82 incher

Rocket

 

[skywagon8a]

Installation requires a governor of course and to make that happen required a dynafocal mount and suitably suffixed engine.

Not on all the STCs. An -18 here was converted without changing the mount.

 

[Short Bus]

Unicorn indeed!

That prop is the 81X
There is a 100 hour AD that mandates a full hub disassembly for inspection. Parts are not available as it is no longer supported by Hartzell. But it does explain the zero time

Installation requires a governor of course and to make that happen required a dynafocal mount and suitably suffixed engine.

I don’t know about the 18 but the 81X is on the TCDS of the 22 and was popular with the 22S, can’t imagine why as that prop is a proper boat anchor and a tripacer is nose heavy enough on floats with a 82 incher

Rocket

I’m not sure about an 81x but I do know that’s not the prop on this plane. This prop has a 500hr/5yr ad. Thanks for the info nonetheless. CJ

 

[KevinJ]

Man, it’s been hinted here but I can’t think it would fly very good with all that weight on the nose unless there’s 30lbs of lead in the tail. Beg, steal or borrow a ride in the front seat of a -18 set up more conventional. Nose heavy cubs fly like lawn darts. Miserable. You’ll fight them trying to make them do cub things.

 

[behindpropellers]

New fabric without even installing the X brace above the pilot. Seems cheap. What else did they cheap out on?

 

[Short Bus]

New fabric without even installing the X brace above the pilot. Seems cheap. What else did they cheap out on?

Owned by the same man since ‘74. Not cheap; heck he probably doesn’t even know about the x brace. He just recovered his plane bc it needed it. He’s 95 now and it’s time to let her go. I’m just looking for helpful info to see if I’m a good fit.

 

[Steve Pierce]

Did you review the paperwork for all these mods?

 

[aktango58]

No matter what plane, it is worth having someone with experience review ALL paperwork before you get very far. One word difference on an entry can mean the difference of tens of thousands when a mod or overhaul was done, (My mechanic caught it in the logs before I bought). That review can answer most all the questions folks are tossing out here; find someone NOT FAMILIAR with the plane, as they will tend to be more thorough.

If you still like things after a log review, have the same person look at the plane to ensure the logs, airframe and modifications, (serial and model numbers) match. Funny how expensive it is to try and reconstruct paper work or installed modifications when it was done 30 years ago and they left something out!

The above is about the plane being legal to fly. This does not always make it unsafe, but makes it possible for competent mechanics to sign it off for inspections, which allows your insurance to be valid, and you to not have the FAA come down on you as an owner. Remember, some guys just say the heck with it, I am flying myself, I am not insured so I will just do what I want for the modification.

Now, if all the above has not scared you off, ask yourself if you can do 90% of your flying with a 350 pound useful load. You need 25 or so pounds of reserve fuel, then about 45 pounds per hour; a two hour flight gives you just over 200 pounds for you, and a small survival kit.

If this plane has sentimental attachment for you, maybe you ignore some of the costs. That is ok, but be warned that brushing off things because the guy that owned it did it himself and knows his stuff will bite you later on.

Some very pertinent questions asked or hinted at above:

Why was recent fabric done without the X brace installed? This is a well known safety issue
Why no shoulder harness when fabric was done recently? Another well known safety question
Are the seatbelts attached to the floor or the seat?
Why was the fabric work done without the simple weight increase tubes installed while uncovered?
If someone went to the work of new fabric without the above, (lack of research, lack of desire?), did they skip anything else to affect longevity?
How were tubes prepped? What kind of paint used?

The lower gross weight was common for the 125 and 135 hp as I recall, (easily could be wrong), but something in my pea brain agrees with the above that the 150 hp was supposed to have the increased gross weight tubes put in just aft of the cabin. If this was not done, referral's back to Tom's post as it would be an ugly and expensive patch.

 

[Short Bus]

No matter what plane, it is worth having someone with experience review ALL paperwork before you get very far. One word difference on an entry can mean the difference of tens of thousands when a mod or overhaul was done, (My mechanic caught it in the logs before I bought). That review can answer most all the questions folks are tossing out here; find someone NOT FAMILIAR with the plane, as they will tend to be more thorough.

If you still like things after a log review, have the same person look at the plane to ensure the logs, airframe and modifications, (serial and model numbers) match. Funny how expensive it is to try and reconstruct paper work or installed modifications when it was done 30 years ago and they left something out!

The above is about the plane being legal to fly. This does not always make it unsafe, but makes it possible for competent mechanics to sign it off for inspections, which allows your insurance to be valid, and you to not have the FAA come down on you as an owner. Remember, some guys just say the heck with it, I am flying myself, I am not insured so I will just do what I want for the modification.

Now, if all the above has not scared you off, ask yourself if you can do 90% of your flying with a 350 pound useful load. You need 25 or so pounds of reserve fuel, then about 45 pounds per hour; a two hour flight gives you just over 200 pounds for you, and a small survival kit.

If this plane has sentimental attachment for you, maybe you ignore some of the costs. That is ok, but be warned that brushing off things because the guy that owned it did it himself and knows his stuff will bite you later on.

Some very pertinent questions asked or hinted at above:

Why was recent fabric done without the X brace installed? This is a well known safety issue
Why no shoulder harness when fabric was done recently? Another well known safety question
Are the seatbelts attached to the floor or the seat?
Why was the fabric work done without the simple weight increase tubes installed while uncovered?
If someone went to the work of new fabric without the above, (lack of research, lack of desire?), did they skip anything else to affect longevity?
How were tubes prepped? What kind of paint used?

The lower gross weight was common for the 125 and 135 hp as I recall, (easily could be wrong), but something in my pea brain agrees with the above that the 150 hp was supposed to have the increased gross weight tubes put in just aft of the cabin. If this was not done, referral's back to Tom's post as it would be an ugly and expensive patch.

Aktango,
Well said and much appreciated. Lots to think about from what you said. Because of all the helpful advice/insight/knowledge from this post, I’ve decided to pass on this purchase. At least at the current time and for the current asking price.

Thanks everyone. Sincerely,
CJ