Lessons Learned at the Talkeetna Fly In - A Bit Too Slow
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RaisedByWolves
FRIEND
Tx
35's. I heard it dinged both wings, bent the tail post and both axles. Not much damage considering.
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Eddie Foy
MEMBER
South Florida
Here is my analysis of the lesson learned.
When you fly an airlplane on the ragged edge of control that close to the ground you have no room to recover. When that wing stalled, God could not have saved him. Nothing he did or could have done with the controls would have altered the outcome.
IMHO
YMMV
When you fly an airlplane on the ragged edge of control that close to the ground you have no room to recover. When that wing stalled, God could not have saved him. Nothing he did or could have done with the controls would have altered the outcome.
IMHO
YMMV
Well I suppose he could have hit the ground wings level for style points, other than that, tough deal for a very talented stick! Maybe an altitude minimum for the future.
cubdriver2
FRIEND
upstate NY
Looks like he elevated himself out of ground effect? I used to hop around with an old WWII pilot who flew more planes then I have ever seen. We would take my 11 and go all over, we would switch seats every stop. When I was in the front and used aileron after coming over the fence he would wack the back of my head with the edge of the paint stick fuel gauge and scream "RUDDER ", "lift the wing with rudder when going this slow, the rudder is your first and last friend this plane will give you "
I notice in the video the rudder never moves.
Glenn
I notice in the video the rudder never moves.
Glenn
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Without sufficient lift at some point somethings got to correct for prop torque and airframe roll opposite its rotation. Might he have been holding a slight aileron against that?
So sad to see and worse yet to now to fix.
Gary
So sad to see and worse yet to now to fix.
Gary
spinner2
MEMBER
Montana
Sad to see. Hope the repairs go smooth. It looks like It could have been much worse.
Rudder is your friend. I recall hitting a wind shear at tree top level in the wintertime on skis in my Cub. My right wing suddenly dropped and the nose pitched down. I was staring at trees and snow coming at me - way too close. I thought I'd seen the end of me. I stomped in full opposite rudder and full throttle. That straightened things out and I was then aligned with the strip and just above the snow. As quickly as the situation turned ugly it now looked pretty good. I pulled the throttle back and landed. This was at Fish Lake Idaho in late winter. Not a good place or time to have trouble.
Last year after the trade show I drove to Talkeetna and took a Beaver flight up to McKinnely. We landed on the glacier and I was in the right front seat coming back. We entered a right downwind for a landing to the south. A yellow Pacer cut in front of us as we turned base leg. The pilot couldn't see it from her side and as we turned final the Pacer touched down and immediately ground looped doing a complete 360. It taxied back onto the runway pushed in full throttle and took off without checking for damage or saying a word on the radio. We offset from the runway centerline and did a go around! And all of this took place right in front of the FSS station.
Rudder is your friend. I recall hitting a wind shear at tree top level in the wintertime on skis in my Cub. My right wing suddenly dropped and the nose pitched down. I was staring at trees and snow coming at me - way too close. I thought I'd seen the end of me. I stomped in full opposite rudder and full throttle. That straightened things out and I was then aligned with the strip and just above the snow. As quickly as the situation turned ugly it now looked pretty good. I pulled the throttle back and landed. This was at Fish Lake Idaho in late winter. Not a good place or time to have trouble.
Last year after the trade show I drove to Talkeetna and took a Beaver flight up to McKinnely. We landed on the glacier and I was in the right front seat coming back. We entered a right downwind for a landing to the south. A yellow Pacer cut in front of us as we turned base leg. The pilot couldn't see it from her side and as we turned final the Pacer touched down and immediately ground looped doing a complete 360. It taxied back onto the runway pushed in full throttle and took off without checking for damage or saying a word on the radio. We offset from the runway centerline and did a go around! And all of this took place right in front of the FSS station.
Attachments
Charlie Longley
MEMBER
Anchorage, AK
Well at least he didn't get a prop strike.
PerryB
FRIEND
Chico, CA
About that commentary, "The headwind subsided". That couldn't POSSIBLY have anything to do with it, because that's the foundation of the downwind turn peril and we've all heard ad-nauseum that no such phenomena exists. Free moving airstream etc... Once again inertia is the wildcard that those who haven't experienced it cannot understand. If not for the properties of inertia, the aircraft could immediately accelerate to maintain a constant airspeed, but obviously it can't so it flopped out of the sky. Just like when a last minute gust lofts you back into the air and then drops you if you don't immediately push it over to reclaim your energy. But again, this must all be imagined since it certainly can't/doesn't exist in our free airstream...
Okay, back to the immediate subject. No I didn't see any significant rudder either, but I do agree it would be hard not to instinctively push the stick over.
--P.S. A GoFundMe page. Seriously??? He prangs his plane showing off and then passes the hat to fix it! Talented stick or not, that's pretty low rent.
Okay, back to the immediate subject. No I didn't see any significant rudder either, but I do agree it would be hard not to instinctively push the stick over.
--P.S. A GoFundMe page. Seriously??? He prangs his plane showing off and then passes the hat to fix it! Talented stick or not, that's pretty low rent.
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PerryB
FRIEND
Chico, CA
If that's the case then I apologize for the disparaging remark. Still, that page needs to come down. GoFundMe is for widows, orphans and cancer victims. Not well heeled sportsmen who break their toys.
JimParker256
Registered User
Farmersville, TX
Isn't that what insurance is for?
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SpainCub
Registered User
At 0:55 through 1:05, there is no rudder input that I could see. This goes back to the moose stall, aileron input on a drop wing, accelerates the drop of the wing, downward motion of the aileron generates drag on the down wing and upward motion of the upward wing release draw wile generating a low energy vortex at the tip, increasing lift at the wing tip...
Did flight training on an acrobatic airplane, and even knowing that I had to input rudder, it took me about 5 tries to remove the instinctive visual input of aileron... the gnomonic I use to remember this is, when near the ground, use your feet. On most days doing traffics, I still practice on approach to correct with rudder only.
Now, could he have saved it, it's hard to know at these speeds and altitudes; but it's always a loosing bet to introduce aileron control.
It's hard to see this happen... I'm very sorry for this event.
Did flight training on an acrobatic airplane, and even knowing that I had to input rudder, it took me about 5 tries to remove the instinctive visual input of aileron... the gnomonic I use to remember this is, when near the ground, use your feet. On most days doing traffics, I still practice on approach to correct with rudder only.
Now, could he have saved it, it's hard to know at these speeds and altitudes; but it's always a loosing bet to introduce aileron control.
It's hard to see this happen... I'm very sorry for this event.
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
His friends set up the GoFundMe page because they wanted to help him out with the repairs. If you don't agree with it don't contribute. I thought it was pretty nice gesture on his friends part. I've bent stuff and cost me lots of time and money, less bold because of it.
behindpropellers
Registered User
NE Ohio
Glad he wasn't another 25-50 feet higher. He probably would not be here with us today.
2 years ago I did the post cleanup after a friend of mine augured in. I coordinated moving the blood splattered airplane, dealt with the faa, helped out the family, and visited my friend in the hospital who narrowly escaped death. Kudos to cubcrafters for building the part 23 certified top cub, he would not be alive in a standard super cub.
Tim
2 years ago I did the post cleanup after a friend of mine augured in. I coordinated moving the blood splattered airplane, dealt with the faa, helped out the family, and visited my friend in the hospital who narrowly escaped death. Kudos to cubcrafters for building the part 23 certified top cub, he would not be alive in a standard super cub.
Tim
Mauleguy
MEMBER
X2,
These airplanes with slats and other devices that allow such high angles of attack and the owners who drag them in at these attitudes are asking for trouble eventually in my opinion. If they would fly these airplanes where you can see where you are going it is no doubt a safety mod that can save lives but when you start to fly an airplane like this one on the edge it is going to bit you when you are that close to the ground. There was video of one of the guys at the stol comp in Valdez this year that did the same thing landing and dang near got the right wing tip when it stopped flying. Lucky for him he was almost on the ground when it happened because the ground crew marking the distance might have been in his path.
I would never feel comfortable flying an airplane at that high of an attack angle, it is just not natural for me, everything I have taught myself about flying slow tells my brain this angle is not right.
This person has learned a good/hard lesson without dying, it is only money and time at this point.
As most know slats allow for much higher angles of attack but not a great tool for landing in marginal places because you can't see where you are going but here is something that does allow you to fly slower and see better over the nose. PSTOL's double slotted flaps. These combined with the slat are a good tool used to fly slower for the right reason and give a huge safety margin over non equipped.
Greg
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aktango58
FRIEND
18AA
Well said.
I don't know how to determine if one is 'well heeled', makes lifestyle choices, is broke but budgets...
Everyone needs a hand now and then. If others want to facilitate it, let them. Maybe it is not for the receiver, but the giver. There are widows and orphans, of which I am the latter, that do not need the assistance as much as some that seem well off. Even Sam Walton needed a hand once changing a tire, the guys that helped him did not know who he was, just that an older gentleman was on the side of the road with a flat.
We are all in this together. Thank you for the discussion, it is good to review how to keep out of trouble, many of us need that from time to time.
While the STOL contests are fun to watch, I get concerned about the message sent to us average pilots with average airplanes. Unless you are exceptionally skilled and proficient, you should leave yourself more safety margin.
Just my thoughts.
Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
Just my thoughts.
Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
GeorgeMandes
Registered User
Homer, Alaska
In all my training, it goes:
1) push
2) power
3) rudder
4) roll
5) climb
Lots of discussion of number three, not so much of one and two.
1) push
2) power
3) rudder
4) roll
5) climb
Lots of discussion of number three, not so much of one and two.
aktango58
FRIEND
18AA
No worries Perry, we all get cranky at times!
After watching a couple more times and thinking about it, there is no release of the elevators.
Without sound I can not tell what the power inputs are, but another factor to consider is when wings stall and we add power, the forces compound to the left. Did the wing stall, or was the roll initiated by power addition, then the aileron caused the stall?
Lots of things here to consider for training and learning.
Hope he is back in the air soon.
After watching a couple more times and thinking about it, there is no release of the elevators.
Without sound I can not tell what the power inputs are, but another factor to consider is when wings stall and we add power, the forces compound to the left. Did the wing stall, or was the roll initiated by power addition, then the aileron caused the stall?
Lots of things here to consider for training and learning.
Hope he is back in the air soon.
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
Once that roll began, all the rudder in the world wouldn't have stopped it. One of the potential problems of working that an AOA is that when and if a wing does stall, for whatever reason, the result is apt to be pretty dramatic. I'm glad he didn't get hurt, and that the airplane wasn't damaged any worse.
MTV
MTV
hotrod180
FRIEND
Port Townsend, WA
I have to agree. This strikes a chord with me--
I know a couple who recently put up a go-fund-me page to help pay for some extracurricular activity their daughter wants to do.
I could see it if they were poor folks, but they have the money to pay for it themselves--
they're just too cheap to do so.
Wingwrench
Registered User
Lakeland, Fl
A bit of advice if isn't obvious. If you are going to fly stol competition go out and practice real slow flight at altitude. Learn what the airplane does and feels like right before it breaks. Fly the airplane into the stall and try to recover without losing altitude, it can be done with some airplanes. The key is to learn what the airplane is telling you and react to it without having to think about it. Just watch the oil temp.
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