Landing in snow on wheels
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cubdriver2
FRIEND
upstate NY
An excavator or crane work great.
Glenn
Glenn
Nope, what bends the frame is when the get over the top and let the tail drop to the ground!! Push it up from the back then run around and catch it as it comes over and gently lower it to the ground.
DENNY
Farmboy
SPONSOR
Fort Edward, NY - Fairview, OK
They’re probably some photos around somewhere of two Champs that got reset onto their wheels by a good group of guys. If it was Alaska they both would have been flown home. As there were other options both had the wings yanked off and rolled on a trailer in a few short hours.
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TVATIVAK71
SPONSOR
ANC
If your alone and the ground or beach type permits. Take the prop off, cover carb intake best you can (still gonna have to flush crap out anyway). Dig a big hole under cowl. Push it over till plane is almost vertical and then attach rope to tail spring and slowly muscle it over, might have to dig a bit where mains touch to ease it over. Rumor has it this worked on a Cessna 140 and a PA-11(two people).
Farmboy
SPONSOR
Fort Edward, NY - Fairview, OK
That’s where the ladder or piece of equipment is handy.
Usually all the way over is 8-12’ up. … so I’ve heard. But it’s amazing what a couple guys can do with what can be found in a couple airplanes.
Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers… [emoji849]
TVATIVAK71
SPONSOR
ANC
I wrote it wrong. You attach the rope before pushing it vertical. In this case plane was on back, not nosed over. No ladder needed.
I watched my dad lasso the tailwheel on his 170 once when I was really little. Nosed over in soft sand and stopped around vertical. I don't remember much about it but I thought the fact that he could lasso something was about the coolest thing I had ever seen. I'm sure he has different memories about it than me! Luckily we had friends with us to pull it back down.
TVATIVAK71
SPONSOR
ANC
Many years ago…….in a far away place called Dillingham, AK at a period time when the the usual off airport tire was the 8.50x6 and racing slicks were common to see on planes and if you had the balloon 24” or 26” tire you were considered unstoppable. I really had no problem landing in snow of various depths and consistencies as long as I used some techniques to make it safer. There was an old local pilot named Dick Armstrong (second generation area pilot at that) that always seemed to have words of wisdom that fell on my young selectivity deaf ears. One day we were discussing wheels on snow and soft landing areas and methods. He was very adamant that unless you have a VERY good reason to do the wheels on snow off airport type ops with out knowing with certainty what lies beneath the white stuff. It’s just asking for trouble even if you do run or drag the tires to check it (i.e. beaches, mudflats and bars). I told him with all the advice him and some other seasoned pilots conveyed to me that I pretty much have that type of operation “dialed in”.
Funny how you think you keep a clean plane by vacuuming and such. But once you turn them upside down there is sh&t everywhere. As well as learning about how tight a seatbelt should be just in case you have to hang from it. Man, I wouldn’t have hit that glare shield if I woulda had my harness tight as well as a cargo net to keep everything from getting dumped on the back of my head. That day had a very steep learning curve. It wasn’t a snow landing but a soft surface nonetheless. Real ELT ops and a ride in a cool helicopter. Yup, guess I had it all “dialed in”. LOL
Funny how you think you keep a clean plane by vacuuming and such. But once you turn them upside down there is sh&t everywhere. As well as learning about how tight a seatbelt should be just in case you have to hang from it. Man, I wouldn’t have hit that glare shield if I woulda had my harness tight as well as a cargo net to keep everything from getting dumped on the back of my head. That day had a very steep learning curve. It wasn’t a snow landing but a soft surface nonetheless. Real ELT ops and a ride in a cool helicopter. Yup, guess I had it all “dialed in”. LOL
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55-PA18A
SPONSOR
Dillingham, Alaska
I felt kind of stupid after asking this question in the original post, but there has been a lot of good discussion and comments. Thank you all.
Tvativak71,..."Dickie Armstrong"'...that name brings up good memories. What a good guy. Lots of stories. And he would often tell them himself.
Jim
Tvativak71,..."Dickie Armstrong"'...that name brings up good memories. What a good guy. Lots of stories. And he would often tell them himself.
Jim
As if you did not do any damage putting it on it's back in the first place.
I had 6X6s with me on two rightings, place them out a foot or so under the blades. Then work the plane back over.
I had to right a Waco cabin that went over, at first it looked good when I got started, soon I realized the engine mount was in pretty bad shape so I chose to remove the engine first. Then was able to roll the plane over pretty easy.
RaisedByWolves
FRIEND
Tx
Saw them break a 195 in half like that. They didn’t want to take the cowl off and dig under the engine or put a rope going both ways. They grabbed the tail with an excavator and flipped it back over. Fortunately they listened and took the metal wheel pants and spinner off. Both were undamaged
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RaisedByWolves
FRIEND
Tx
They picked it up by the tailwheel vertical and tried to swing the engine forward and back onto its gear. The fuselage buckled in the middle. They got it flipped over but did way more damage
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courierguy
MEMBER
Inkom, Idaho
I like how this thread has progressed from the OP's question "how much snow can I land with tires", to various methods to upright the plane, after the question has been answered!
cubdriver2
FRIEND
upstate NY
So I guess what everyone is trying to say is that 'landing in snow with wheels is fine, until it's not....'
5” of snow.
I knew I was in deep sh*t immediately on touchdown,
full power and aft stick kept the tail down, managed to nurse it to a stop.
Tried to pack a runway to depart but bush wheels have a mind of their own in snow and kept following previous grooves.
I was able to lengthen the strip with each successive pass then did a full power luge run hoping I’d be air born before I hit the end of my tracks - which ended at a creek bank.
I grew up in Northern Mn, think I’d know better..
my first attempt to depart, following in my landing tracks, too much drag, aborted just shy of the ditch
parked and assessed things for a minute
I knew I was in deep sh*t immediately on touchdown,
full power and aft stick kept the tail down, managed to nurse it to a stop.
Tried to pack a runway to depart but bush wheels have a mind of their own in snow and kept following previous grooves.
I was able to lengthen the strip with each successive pass then did a full power luge run hoping I’d be air born before I hit the end of my tracks - which ended at a creek bank.
I grew up in Northern Mn, think I’d know better..
my first attempt to depart, following in my landing tracks, too much drag, aborted just shy of the ditch
parked and assessed things for a minute
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A quick follow up on last post:
I did do a quick “drag” pass to test snow conditions, tire marks just visible in yellow circle.
the proposed landing strip was a short one way due to a tall windrow of cottonwoods.
I dragged at an angle to allow a go around. Snow felt powdery and lite.
Couple lessons learned:
Fresh snow on deep grass is a lot deeper than it appears due to the grass supporting snow pack.
Surface was still powdery but heavy underneath due to relatively warm ground beneath.
last takeaway, don’t land in snow on wheels.
I did do a quick “drag” pass to test snow conditions, tire marks just visible in yellow circle.
the proposed landing strip was a short one way due to a tall windrow of cottonwoods.
I dragged at an angle to allow a go around. Snow felt powdery and lite.
Couple lessons learned:
Fresh snow on deep grass is a lot deeper than it appears due to the grass supporting snow pack.
Surface was still powdery but heavy underneath due to relatively warm ground beneath.
last takeaway, don’t land in snow on wheels.
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BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Gotta' pack those snow shoes for times like these
Gary
Gary
TVATIVAK71
SPONSOR
ANC
I don’t see a real definable answer to the question in past posts……4”,8-12” or 2 feet. Think it’s far from answered depending on experience and equipment. Not to mention changing snow conditions and underlaying terrain. But the common denominator to landing on snow contaminated (talking “how much can one get away with”) surfaces is sometimes stuff doesn’t go right. So how you gonna fix the problem you created. So I think it’s relevant.
One thing I heard fellow pilots in the past say is that they are always spring loaded to full power and back stick to keep from nosing over in snow, sand, mud whatever. It might keep you from going over or might get you airborne if you have lots of power. I think it’s a good technique and something to think about. Has it worked for me. Yup, In various models of planes………till I joined the “Didn’t work that time club”. Nothing like being spring loaded in a low powered 8.50x6 aired down over sized tire equipped plane holding wheel in lap with full throttle and tail wheel barely kissing the sand as you feel the plane lurching hard trying to go over all while not accelerating.
Other than my pride and the barrage of vocal Monday morning quarterbacking by my fellow air taxi pilots of my day off escapade it was a valuable experience in decision making.
So what is the answer? Maybe we can all make a RCAM (Runway Condition Assessment Matrix) chart like we use on the Boeing to define can and can’t do. Get input from insured companies as well just to round it out.(Just kidding)
My answer is do what ever you want based on ones own and others experience. Then except the outcome if it goes wrong. Then have a plan to recover.
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Troy Hamon
Registered User
King Salmon, AK
I keep almost replying, but then not taking the time. I will just add a couple things. First, if you can see the color of ice showing through the snow, then the snow is less than an inch deep. That can be managed with pretty much any tires. After scaring myself in my tripacer a long time ago, I figured that out and don't mess around unless I can at least see the dark ice through the snow.
Second, don't land on sloped beaches with ice or snow on them. Have done that a few times, figured out that it is better to find a frozen lake and sort out the snow cover situation. Rollout when the plane is slipping sideways and there are chunks of ice that can take out a gear leg or tailwheel that you are sliding sideways toward is not an experience anybody needs. I got that experience without anything expensive happening, offering it here for free so you can learn from my free mistake and not repeat it yourself.
Third, if you are evaluating snow surfaces, understand that the primary problem is the stopping. If you roll the tires at flying speed and don't let the plane slow down, it gives you a chance to feel the snow without committing to landing. If it feels like hordes of zombies are grabbing at the plane, fly away and don't go back. If it feels okay, go back and look at your tracks, then if it doesn't strike you as deep, run your tires in the same tracks again. If you do that a few times and reach the point where you are sure you have the tires down onto the hard surface, then maybe landing is an option so long as the snow is less than 4 inches. That is my personal limit for 31 inch bushwheels on a cub at work. I am sure it can handle more, but I don't feel any need to find out how much more.
And the important thing is you should be asking yourself if you really want to be doing this. Snow and ice are infinitely complex surfaces. I learned a lot of this stuff by trial and error. I wouldn't recommend doing it that way.
FWIW.
Second, don't land on sloped beaches with ice or snow on them. Have done that a few times, figured out that it is better to find a frozen lake and sort out the snow cover situation. Rollout when the plane is slipping sideways and there are chunks of ice that can take out a gear leg or tailwheel that you are sliding sideways toward is not an experience anybody needs. I got that experience without anything expensive happening, offering it here for free so you can learn from my free mistake and not repeat it yourself.
Third, if you are evaluating snow surfaces, understand that the primary problem is the stopping. If you roll the tires at flying speed and don't let the plane slow down, it gives you a chance to feel the snow without committing to landing. If it feels like hordes of zombies are grabbing at the plane, fly away and don't go back. If it feels okay, go back and look at your tracks, then if it doesn't strike you as deep, run your tires in the same tracks again. If you do that a few times and reach the point where you are sure you have the tires down onto the hard surface, then maybe landing is an option so long as the snow is less than 4 inches. That is my personal limit for 31 inch bushwheels on a cub at work. I am sure it can handle more, but I don't feel any need to find out how much more.
And the important thing is you should be asking yourself if you really want to be doing this. Snow and ice are infinitely complex surfaces. I learned a lot of this stuff by trial and error. I wouldn't recommend doing it that way.
FWIW.
cubdriver2
FRIEND
