J-3+ vs PA-11 vs PA-19-90 on FLOATS

[CarlM]

I'm shopping for one of the lighter cubs as listed in subject line. My "mission" is as follows:

Based in the Adirondacks for the summer on floats, then either storage, or back to Buffalo on wheels/skis, or partnering with someone in the south for the winter. It should have the space and carrying capability (floats can be had with storage lockers) for weekend camping for self and wife (320 lb) combined, range for solo trips to Ontario lakes and Oshkosh, and maybe back here if I can find some water to keep it. It should be a whole lot of fun doing splash and dashes.

I just flew a J-3 with 85 converted to 100 with crank and pistons on Aqua 1500's. Very impressive, they say it has flown with 540 lb and 80 degrees w/o problem.

My opinion so far:
J-3. I'd consider pulling the fuse tank and putting two 12's in the wings, more comfortable seats, larger baggage with external access and of course, float fittings. 90-100HP
The PA-11 is part way there but might consider 10 gal in the right, baggage, fittings. It's a little faster but speed isn't something one dwells on when talking floats.
I think the PA-18-90 is similar to the 11 but with a beefier frame and a more open upgrade path. I still have a lot to learn about the little 18, might be much heavier.

What are the tradeoffs with the listed models for my intended purpose. What's an average price for each as a decent flying project on wheels?

I'll ask about engine upgrade paths in the Modification section.

Thanks,

Carl

 

[SuperCub MD]

If you are going to modify the J3, PA11 to larger fuel tanks, baggage, and engine, you will definitely be better off getting a PA18 instead. You will then get a higher gross weight, and infinite modification possibilities if you would ever desire them.

Don't discount the PA18 with a Lycoming, they are not all bad if you keep them light . Which plane you get will probably come down to your budget, how much do you have to spend?

 

[CarlM]

For a flying project (high time engine, older fabric) I'm assuming 20-25 for the J-3, 30-35 for the PA-11, 40-45 for the 90hp PA-18. Is that about right??

The 18 gets nearly 1500 gross on floats, the J-3/PA-11 about 1300. How much heavier is the empty weight of the 18? There seems to be a large performance margin with the J-3/PA-11 with the 90-100hp. How about with "little" 18?

Carl

 

[SuperCub MD]

Consider that the stock PA11 and PA18 airframes are basically identical except that the PA18 front wing spars are shorter and attach to the outside of the fuselage instead of the middle, and the 18 has a larger baggage area. There are other subtle differences, but those are the big ones. If the planes are equipped with the same engine, electrics, and any other add ons, the weight and performance should be about the same. If you take a J3/PA11 and modify it to be like a PA18, the J3/PA11 will weigh the same as the PA18.

 

[bob turner]

Yep, the PA-18-108 is just a shade over 850#; a stock J-3 is 725. Battery, Starter, generator, and a few switches, plus a metal prop. The real difference is the spars, which allow the pilot to sit higher, and thus more front legroom. Removing the J-3 fuel tank does nothing to increase room in the front. J-3 is more comfortably flown from the back; the back seat in the supercub is where we start out for Stearman checkouts. Can't see anything from back there!

 

[behindpropellers]

J-5 is a great option too. I saw one at Jack Browns with floats.

Heres why:

Fly it from the front seat.
Plenty of room inside.
1450 gross weight.
Wing tank(s) are standard.
Acquistion cost is lower than a J-3 or PA-11.
You can put up to 135hp on them.

The only downfalls are:

They are all old.
They are not commonly put on floats.
Some of the parts are hard to find.

 

[Alex Clark]

A non-electric PA-11-90 weighs less than a PA-18-95. About 100 pounds.
The legal gross on the PA-18-95 is 200 pounds more 1500 vs 1300. They were thinking ahead and knew that they were moving to larger engines.

I currently fly a PA-11-90 on floats. (EDO 1400s) no electric, and one 18 gallon fuel tank, (800 pounds empty on floats) it works great.

I have also flown a J-3C converted to a 100 horse 0-200, two 18 gallon tanks, solar battery and a starter, with EDO 1320s. It was a dog compared to the PA-11-90.

I have also owned a J-5 that was converted to a 125 and 135 horse. It had supercub landing gear, trim and 36 gallon SC fuel systems. It also had PA-12 metal sparred wings. It only weighed 1008 pounds with droop tips, a battery,generator, starter and lights. I used it on wheels and skis. It was a GREAT plane. It would have worked well on floats.

85 and 90 horse J-3s work well on floats. The J-3C-65 requires some flirting to get her off the water when it is glassy.

150-180 horse Supercubs and Huskeys can be flown off the water by a trained monkey since they have the power/lift to pull themselves out.

Little T-craft are a fun little float planes, the legal gross get scarey if you have an oversized engine and they are far from roomy.

 

[CarlM]

I just looked at a j-5 on Barnstormers with 85hp (upgradable to 100hp) at a reasonable price, I've asked for details.

The TC for the J-5 lists Edo 2000 which seems like a lot for a pregnant
J-3. Are you aware of any other float STC's for the J-5?

It seems the general opinion is that with the same engine (90-100), equipment, and load the little 18 is the way to go with the PA-11 in second place. Are they flown w/o the electrics, I want to keep it light?

How much more is the aquisiton cost relative to the J-3/PA-11? With a light rebuild, which are you more likely to break even or ahead with after five years? Will the Sport Pilot thing have more influence on the light ones?

I see that Aqua has an STC for 1500's on the small SC, not sure about Baumann yet.

Thanks for the input,

Carl

 

[superchamp]

I wouldn't limit yourself to just Piper products, although all of the ones in this thread will do the job. I personally own a 7AC champ with a 118 hp lycoming on PK1500's. Legal useful loan on floats is about 335 pounds, however, it is very capable of pulling twice that off the water on even hot humid days. The key is in keeping them light. I have a solar battery, running the starter, and no other electrical. Empty on wheels it is a tad over 800 pounds. I know you can get a strong champ on floats for the mid 30's, including skis etc. A lot of the champs already have wing tanks in addition to the 12 gallon nose. Mine holds 12 in each wing and 12 in the nose, and it will fly all 36 gallons off the water along with 2 adults and fishing gear. A supercub is the ultimate but they are big bucks.

 

[floats]

My J3 has the C85 converted to 100 hp, and is on Aqua 1500's. I had the baggage compartment extended with a Cub Crafter side access door installed, along with fishing rod tube, inertia reel harnesses and a Super Cub sliding window on the left side. I have the nose tank still in and an 18 gallon tank in the left wing.

It performs and flys great, and I mean great. But if you want to try to fly legal and stay within your gross, you better go with the Super Cub. Gross at 1300lbs doesn't leave a lot of room. Bigger baggage, float lockers, rod tubes are all for one thing, carrying things that weigh something.

But if you're OK with being careful with your loads and you will be doing some of the flying solo, this combination makes a very fun, very good floatplane. I fly from the rear solo and from the front with passengers. It's definately more comfortable in the rear.

Get the 100hp conversion, it makes a difference on any kind of day!

Gregg