Is aileron rolling a super cub a great idea

[Waldo M]

KevinJ, I would be surprised if Kyle Franklin pulls much over 3Gs during his routine in the Beech 18.

TK, the only FAA requirement for spin training is for Flight Instructors, and that is just during their training before they take the practical test. It is not required to be demonstrated during the test.

In a related Issue, the FAA considers a spin to be an aerobatic maneuver. This is because the airplane can exceed a 60 degree bank and will exceed a 30 degree pitch attitude while performing one. They also require parachutes to be worn during aerobatic maneuvers. However, the FARs do not require parachutes to be worn during spins IF A PILOT IS TRAINING FOR THE INSTRUCTOR RATING. Parachutes are still required to be worn for any other spin training. Do you really need to do that when training with an experienced instructor in an airplane certified for spins? I don't think so, but the FAA does.

At one time, spins were required to be demonstrated during the Private Pilot practical test. That requirement was removed from the regulations in the fifties in an attempt to lessen a high number of spin related accident statistics. Those statistics did decrease after that was done, but i haven't done the research to find out how much. Obviously, stall/spin accidents still factor high in current loss of control accident statistics.

I have always felt that if a pilot is flying an airplane capable of entering a spin, he or she should have been trained to recognize and recover from one. However, I am not a flight instructor. My wife is and my Mother gave 11,000 hours of dual instruction. They did not agree with me. Their contention was that teaching stall recognition and recovery from a FULL stall would keep their students out of trouble. They would both be happy to teach a student spins if the student wanted that training but very few did except for their Instructor applicants. Neither one of them ever lost a student they had trained, so my opinion could be wrong.

 

[Waldo M]

I guess I will leave it to the experts

. The man knows whereof he speaks.

 

[Oliver]

A poorly executed roll

I fly an S1S, when I do multiple rolls with smoke on, camera facing aft, my smoke trail is in the form of a tight corkscrew, not a straight line. I assumed it was not possible to fly a roll perfectly thru the axis of the plane, due to wing angle of incidence and effects of gravity. Both of these forces require the nose to oscillate up and down (to the horizon) to maintain heading and altitude.
I can do it vertically but not horizontally.
Granted I’m relatively new to acro, but you’re saying it possible to roll horizontally thru the the axis of the plane? (Smoke in a straight line?)

 

[Tom Jones]

To be clear, FAR 91.303, defining the limitations of aerobatic flight, states: "For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight."

Notice there is no mention of pitch or bank limits, just abrupt changes in pitch, bank or acceleration and abnormal attitude.

FAR 91.307 states:
(a) No pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a parachute that is available for emergency use to be carried in that aircraft unless it is an approved type and has been packed by a certificated and appropriately rated parachute rigger—

(1) Within the preceding 180 days, if its canopy, shrouds, and harness are composed exclusively of nylon, rayon, or other similar synthetic fiber or materials that are substantially resistant to damage from mold, mildew, or other fungi and other rotting agents propagated in a moist environment; or

(2) Within the preceding 60 days, if any part of the parachute is composed of silk, pongee, or other natural fiber or materials not specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section.

(b) Except in an emergency, no pilot in command may allow, and no person may conduct, a parachute operation from an aircraft within the United States except in accordance with part 105 of this chapter. (Part 105 governs parachute operations)

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.

Notice here are the pitch and bank limitations, not under aerobatics. These are parachute requirements.

(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to—
(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by—
(i) A certificated flight instructor; or
(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with § 61.67 of this chapter.

 

[bob turner]

Yes. The smoke is affected by the prop wash.

I do two types of rolls in my Decathlon - one, where the x-axis remains parallel to its level flight direction regardless of attitude (I call it a slow roll unless it is a hesitation roll).

The other - I pitch up 30 degrees at about 130 indicated, put full aileron and almost full rudder in, and a slight forward pressure at the 180 point, and recover 20 degrees nose down. The X-axis describes a cone. I call that an aileron roll.

I do only six a week. More than that at one time and I get quisinart.

I would love to get my nomenclature corrected.

 

[Tom Jones]

For smoke to be in a straight line, the exhaust exit would need to be almost on the center of rotation. The center of the smoke trail would be exactly on the center. Presuming of course you could hold it.

 

[AKjurnees]

Yup, even in a Pitts you bring the nose up slightly, unload the elevator, push and hold the stick full left or right with a smudge of rudder. That’s an Aileron roll. Gravity dictates the requirement of a pitch up in any aircraft for an aileron roll.

For a slow roll or hesitation roll all bets are off, you will push the stick and rudder and become uncomfortable, the engine will pop and quit if unlesss it’s an aeio engine.

In the T-6 I used to snap it at the top of a loop, I believe the term is Avalanche, now I’m older and want to see my kids graduate.

 

[bob turner]

Nope. Open your left window on takeoff - if you are in a double door Legend, you will lose your headset. That corkscrew behind your prop is nothing to trifle with. Moving smoke is child’s play compared to what it can do to a poorly installed Super Cub left window frame.

 

[aktango58]

Thank you MTV!!

The heading asks if it is a "great" idea.

My thought was "BLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP" NO. I am not experienced or trained in aerobatics, but have spin training that may or may not have been wanting a chute on.

I wonder why one would consider adding improper stress to a perfectly good plane that states DON"T DO IT?

 

[Rob]

I can say with absolute certainty that it can be done, and if you have a clue about these things it can be done with the utmost of ease. Having said that, I can also say that doing it in your airplane (a big wheeled 18) merely for the purpose of knowing how to get it undone if you find yourself here is not a 'great idea'. A 'great idea' would be learning how not to end up here on accident.

And that can easily be learnt in an aircraft that makes being there childs play.

Incidentally, these things all have wings. Short of going to drastic extremes, doing and undoing of faux pas generally requires the same process, so learning how to un stall, un spin, un climb, or un turn your cub isn't going to be drastically different than learning how to do the same in say a Citabria.

Take care, Rob