Insurance question

[Richgj3]

For you experts. I sold my C170B to a father and son. The airplane is registered to the father only. The son is a professional pilot but not a CFI and does not have a TW endorsement. He is named on the policy as a “named pilot”. The father is a student pilot and the insurance is in his name but he is not a “named pilot”. I am working with the son to get him his his TW endorsement. I am a CFI with about 4000 hrs of TW time.

Question 1. When I am instructing the son who is “named” on the policy I assume we are covered. Am I correct?

Question 2. If I am instructing the student pilot father who is not “named” but owns the airplane and the policy, are we covered?

Before you suggest I should be “named” to protect myself, you’re correct but the insurance company won’t add me because I’m too old. (78) We are trying to address that. For the 4 years I owned the airplane I wasn’t too old to have insurance but that was a different company than he has. This is a separate issue that will obviously color my decision to train the father for his PPL. I do not carry CFI insurance since I don’t instruct anymore but I agreed to do this for the new owners assuming I could be named on his policy.


Thanks for any input.
Rich

 

[bob turner]

No.
Best course of action is SAFE.

If the insurance is AIG, the broker ought to be able to get you an endorsement stating “additional insured with waiver of subrogation.” Make sure the “flight instruction” box is checked. It takes about three weeks to do that, because most brokers are unaware of the process. So far it has been without additional charge (I am only 83).

Again for AIG, check note 17. You can be “named” on the policy, and still not covered at all when instructing.

Avemco is different. You can be “named” as above, and not covered when acting as CFI - you have to really dig in the policy to discover that. They will issue you a 105601 “Insured Person Endorsement.” It is not cheap! My last one was for the 450 Stearman, and it cost the owner $1200.

Something to keep in mind with the SAFE policy - it only goes to $200 grand. Stay out of Cirrusi unless the owner gets youa written waiver that says “flight instruction” on it.

This is stuff not widely known in the CFI community. If something happens it can really bite you if you have assets.

 

[Richgj3]

Thanks Bob! Extremely helpful.

 

[hotrod180]

I'd suggest giving the actual policy a good read, esp the open pilot clause.
The one for my C180 insurance requires anyone who's not a named pilot to have valid license and current medical & BFR,
and at least 500 hours total time, 100 tailwheel, and 25 make & model.
With regards to getting a checkout:
"The dual flight instruction required below must be given by a CFI that meets these requirements, or a named pilot".

 

[Richgj3]

Thanks. I will read the whole policy this weekend. My issue is Subrogation. As Bob points out we are not totally safe unless named with a waiver of subrogation or we have our own insurance. I think I understand this now. The operative word is “think”.

 

[bob turner]

Or have your lawyer read it. Open pilot warranties often state that CFIs are included. What they don’t tell you is that in the fine print in most policies flight instructors are specifically and expressly excluded from coverage.

How does that work? When my student calls his broker for a waiver for me, his broker always says “you do not need that.” That is true; the owner doesn’t need additional coverage - he is fully covered with a CFI on board.

The next step is the waiver. It will come through without any CFI wording.

Then the broker will say “if we issue you a CFI waiver you will not be covered unless you are instructing. Why would you want that?”

Finally, on week 3, they issue an endorsement with the required waiver, and it will state “while instructing the pilots named in —“

Avemco will issue a waiver practically within hours, but they charge big bucks for it.

Best way: SAFE insurance. Only caveat is it does not cover you in your own aircraft. It is the only option with a liability “tail,” which is incredibly important if you do flight reviews.

 

[bob turner]

Here is what my Avemco 105601 endorsement says:

". . . We waive our recovery rights from the person or organization named below for loss to your insured aircraft. This endorsement only applies while the person . . . named below is giving dual flight instruction to a pilot shown in item 6A . . ."

Let me see if I can get the AIG words in without too much typing:

[ Non-operational-Coverage only applies with respect to the vicarious responsibility of the person or organization below for the operation of the aircraft by the Named Insured.] This one is the one they check at the first attempt. Doesn't help.

Flight Instruction-Coverage only applies while instructing, supervising, evaluating or examining the following pilots, who must also meet the requirements of the Pilots Endorsement: This is the one you need checked. Note that the pesky word "vicarious" is left out - according to my experts, that word is a "gotcha."

 

[slowmover]

This is the #1 thing that keeps me from using my CFI certificates. I would love to teach tailwheel checkouts, grass strip/backcountry familiarization, and real-world IFR. But I have an airline job, a military pension, and a family. There's no way I'm taking that chance so the family of the high-earner down the hangar row can come after me in a few years.

It would be nice if there could be some statutory limit on liability for CFIs. I imagine that would take Congressional action.

 

[larrym]

This is the #1 thing that keeps me from using my CFI certificates. I would love to teach tailwheel checkouts, grass strip/backcountry familiarization, and real-world IFR. But I have an airline job, a military pension, and a family. There's no way I'm taking that chance so the family of the high-earner down the hangar row can come after me in a few years.

It would be nice if there could be some statutory limit on liability for CFIs. I imagine that would take Congressional action.

Ya, you would think that the DPE would absorb all of the liability from that day on...and the FAA, but definitely not the CFI. Interestingly, they are both exempt of liability..

 

[bob turner]

That’s the liability part. Roughly $490/year gets you the standard million/100,000 limits, and as long as you stay paid up, your”tail” is covered. No flight instructor should ever move without it. Does not work if you own the aircraft.

I have a special policy for the instructional Cub, which I own. No “tail” so if a student gets in trouble on landing three years after his checkout, I could be in trouble. Willing to risk that, but not flight reviews. I would rather operate under SAFE, but we lost the underwriter for that about six years ago.