info wanted on 185 metal fenders
- Thread starter floater
- Start date
Alaska_Rallyer
Registered User
Why was that thread removed? :roll:
Floater the fenders i found the picture on were for sale on barn stormers web site. They sound like the same ones you were looking at.
I think they are wheel fenders for a Cessna 188. I dont think there is an STC for the 185.
Floater the fenders i found the picture on were for sale on barn stormers web site. They sound like the same ones you were looking at.
I think they are wheel fenders for a Cessna 188. I dont think there is an STC for the 185.
tripleoption
Registered User
KOSH
There's a 185 that drops in here every so often sportin' fenders over the mains. Just another thing you don't see every day.
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
There is an STC for something that looks like mud flaps, that bolts onto the main gear leg. They really help keep the plane from throwing rocks at the tail, which can be a problem with the 180/185. These are great devices, and I highly recommend them. They don't cover the tires, however, they just scrape the back of the tire.
I believe Aero Twin in Anchorage holds the STC.
MTV
I believe Aero Twin in Anchorage holds the STC.
MTV
tripleoption
Registered User
KOSH
Type "bush fenders" into barnstormers and you'll find a set for sale in Alberta, with picture, for a 180/185. No info posted regarding the STC, but they are not a myth.
lowlevelops
SPONSOR
Montana
I have fenders off a '76 C188 and they don't look like the ones listed on Barnstormers. The fenders advertised maybe an earlier version I guess but the shape looks like fenders I have seen on Pawnees.
The fenders I have keep debris out of the prop mostly and do little to protect the tail.
I will see if I can find them to post some pics, tho my entire hangar is in A LOT of boxes because I am moving next month.
The fenders I have keep debris out of the prop mostly and do little to protect the tail.
I will see if I can find them to post some pics, tho my entire hangar is in A LOT of boxes because I am moving next month.
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
Stewart,
Don't underestimate the damage done by rocks thrown from the tires at Cessna stabilizers. I've seen a NUMBER of bent ribs, and lots of skin damage. If a rib gets bent, many in the FAA will consider that a major structural issue.
I agree with you that WHEEL PANTS have little place in the off airport world, but that's not what these guys are talking about.
The "mud flap" type fenders that Aero Twin sells will definitely save your Cessna tail, AND, they don't go over the top of the tire, so you can still stand on it.
Look at many of the air taxi operators around the state operating Cessnas. Many of them have started using those Aero Twin flaps, for good reason. In my experience at least, air taxi operators don't spend that kind of money on airplanes without a good reason.
MTV
Don't underestimate the damage done by rocks thrown from the tires at Cessna stabilizers. I've seen a NUMBER of bent ribs, and lots of skin damage. If a rib gets bent, many in the FAA will consider that a major structural issue.
I agree with you that WHEEL PANTS have little place in the off airport world, but that's not what these guys are talking about.
The "mud flap" type fenders that Aero Twin sells will definitely save your Cessna tail, AND, they don't go over the top of the tire, so you can still stand on it.
Look at many of the air taxi operators around the state operating Cessnas. Many of them have started using those Aero Twin flaps, for good reason. In my experience at least, air taxi operators don't spend that kind of money on airplanes without a good reason.
MTV
S
StewartB
I deleted the post because I don't really care what gadgets other guys like to bolt on. As for damage, I've flown my 180 exclusively on unpaved surfaces for 15 years and have made a pretty good assessment of what happens to my tail. No mud flaps needed.
Stewart
Stewart
Matt 7GCBC
Registered User
Northwest
Since floater repeatedly mentioned using them with SKIS, I figured he was concerned with slushy snow being thrown up on the lower wing and flap area to freeze solid. Seems somebody last year was saying this was a problem with the new Landis 4000s because the plate doesn't close off the wheel well completely? Do tell.
S
StewartB
Floater, for what it's worth, wheel skis themselves are pretty effective gravel fenders for the main gear. The little wheels on the tail can be annoying, though, depending on what kind of skis you're using.
I've never seen any gravel dings under my wings or on my flaps and have never observed gravel being thrown up or forward from main gear. The enemies of my props are the abrupt use of throttle and/or brakes and stationary run-ups.
Stewart
I've never seen any gravel dings under my wings or on my flaps and have never observed gravel being thrown up or forward from main gear. The enemies of my props are the abrupt use of throttle and/or brakes and stationary run-ups.
Stewart
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
Stewart,
Get out there on a gravel strip on a frosty morning in spring or fall. I pretty much used up a 185 prop at Allakaket one fine fall day in those kinds of conditions, just taxiing back for takeoff, and not fast either. I actually SAW the rock come off the tire, and go winging forward, only to be sucked back through the prop, with an audible "DING". Ouch....
I shut down, looked at the ding, called maintenance, and they said bring it home. The mechanics filed a huge gouge out of that blade leading edge to "fix" the ding. Wasn't pretty, and the prop was overhauled shortly anyway, with a new blade, as I recall.
Right after that, we started using Aero Twin's mud flaps.
Goose is right.
And, by the way, that 185 was wearing C-3600 retractable wheel skis at the time.
Don't underestimate the damage that gravel can do, both to your tail and to the prop.
MTV
Get out there on a gravel strip on a frosty morning in spring or fall. I pretty much used up a 185 prop at Allakaket one fine fall day in those kinds of conditions, just taxiing back for takeoff, and not fast either. I actually SAW the rock come off the tire, and go winging forward, only to be sucked back through the prop, with an audible "DING". Ouch....
I shut down, looked at the ding, called maintenance, and they said bring it home. The mechanics filed a huge gouge out of that blade leading edge to "fix" the ding. Wasn't pretty, and the prop was overhauled shortly anyway, with a new blade, as I recall.
Right after that, we started using Aero Twin's mud flaps.
Goose is right.
And, by the way, that 185 was wearing C-3600 retractable wheel skis at the time.
Don't underestimate the damage that gravel can do, both to your tail and to the prop.
MTV
S
StewartB
Mike,
I also use Fluidyne 3600s with 850s. Again, no damage that you imply is typical. No offense, but 15 years of doing it has a greater impact on me than 12 seconds of reading on the internet. You see, I'm not estimating or underestimating anything. I'm reporting experience-based results. If that offsets yours? Then at least a reader can have both sides of the story. What they do after that is of no concern to me.
I assume you must use mud flaps on your own 170? I notice many of your anecdotes include what you used on government-owned airplanes with incredibly high maintenance budgets. What do you use on airplanes that you pay for?
Stewart
I also use Fluidyne 3600s with 850s. Again, no damage that you imply is typical. No offense, but 15 years of doing it has a greater impact on me than 12 seconds of reading on the internet. You see, I'm not estimating or underestimating anything. I'm reporting experience-based results. If that offsets yours? Then at least a reader can have both sides of the story. What they do after that is of no concern to me.
I assume you must use mud flaps on your own 170? I notice many of your anecdotes include what you used on government-owned airplanes with incredibly high maintenance budgets. What do you use on airplanes that you pay for?
Stewart
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
Stewart,
Nope, I don't have the Aero Twin mud flaps on my airplane. For many years, I operated on floats in summer, and wheel skis in winter, but my utilization of that airplane just didn't come close to those of the government airplanes I flew. Also, there's not quite as much risk of damage on a 170 with 180 gear. There is a quantum difference in thrust between that and a 185, in case you hadn't noticed.
Since I left Alaska, I haven't landed on a single gravel runway.
So, in my case, at least, I'm not up for the quite expensive mud flaps. But, really does my experience of a few thousand hours in a 185 become irrelevant because YOU paid for the mud flaps.... :lol: ??
MTV
Nope, I don't have the Aero Twin mud flaps on my airplane. For many years, I operated on floats in summer, and wheel skis in winter, but my utilization of that airplane just didn't come close to those of the government airplanes I flew. Also, there's not quite as much risk of damage on a 170 with 180 gear. There is a quantum difference in thrust between that and a 185, in case you hadn't noticed.
Since I left Alaska, I haven't landed on a single gravel runway.
So, in my case, at least, I'm not up for the quite expensive mud flaps. But, really does my experience of a few thousand hours in a 185 become irrelevant because YOU paid for the mud flaps.... :lol: ??
MTV
S
StewartB
floater, it sounds like you're addressing a specific problem. There's no argument for that. Out of curiosity what size mains do you run with the Fluidynes?
Mike, fair enough. I respect your pireps. I also respect my own experience. The thing that has made the biggest reduction in gravel dings for me has been the XP 14" tailwheel. When I'm on wheel skis I use 850s and go back to the 8" tailwheel with a Magnum ski. So far I've had no trouble.
Why aren't Cubs getting these rocks in the props?
SB
Mike, fair enough. I respect your pireps. I also respect my own experience. The thing that has made the biggest reduction in gravel dings for me has been the XP 14" tailwheel. When I'm on wheel skis I use 850s and go back to the 8" tailwheel with a Magnum ski. So far I've had no trouble.
Why aren't Cubs getting these rocks in the props?
SB
lowlevelops
SPONSOR
Montana
My cub had quite a few dings in the prop, I think it was from running 8.50s with the normal grooves, since switching to ABWs I have not had a single rock fly up into the prop....
Might just be coincidence or not, I dunno...
Sorry, I have not had a chance to take a pic of the fenders, I will try to get that done sometime soon.
Might just be coincidence or not, I dunno...
Sorry, I have not had a chance to take a pic of the fenders, I will try to get that done sometime soon.
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
Stewart,
I think there are several variables....Trace noted one--grooved tires tend to throw more rocks.
Size and shape of the gravel makes a big difference.
The single worst condition I've seen is when there is a really hard frost on the gravel, like in fall or very late spring, and the gravel is covered with sticky frost. I ran into that pretty regularly in the fall in northern AK. Maybe its' exclusive to that part of the world. My theory is that with temps just right, and stones covered with frost, the pressure of the tire combined with temp causes an unusual number and size of stones to stick to the tires.
Finally, I suspect the reason the 185 seems to suffer this worse than Cubs, etc, is due to weight and thrust. There is a lot of weight on those 8.50s, and a LOT of thrust to stir things around.
We ran 8.50's on most of our 185s, even with wheel skis.
Maybe it's just me, but it sure seems like the 185's take a beatin from stone damage.
Technique obviously plays a huge role, so runups need to be done on the go, no locked wheel turns if you can avoid them...but when you are just taxiing for takeoff, and you see a rock the size of a walnut get tossed off the tire forward through the prop...it is impressive.
MTV
I think there are several variables....Trace noted one--grooved tires tend to throw more rocks.
Size and shape of the gravel makes a big difference.
The single worst condition I've seen is when there is a really hard frost on the gravel, like in fall or very late spring, and the gravel is covered with sticky frost. I ran into that pretty regularly in the fall in northern AK. Maybe its' exclusive to that part of the world. My theory is that with temps just right, and stones covered with frost, the pressure of the tire combined with temp causes an unusual number and size of stones to stick to the tires.
Finally, I suspect the reason the 185 seems to suffer this worse than Cubs, etc, is due to weight and thrust. There is a lot of weight on those 8.50s, and a LOT of thrust to stir things around.
We ran 8.50's on most of our 185s, even with wheel skis.
Maybe it's just me, but it sure seems like the 185's take a beatin from stone damage.
Technique obviously plays a huge role, so runups need to be done on the go, no locked wheel turns if you can avoid them...but when you are just taxiing for takeoff, and you see a rock the size of a walnut get tossed off the tire forward through the prop...it is impressive.
MTV
S
StewartB
The topic has been interesting. I have several 180/185 friends and know none who uses any type of fenders on tires or wheel skis. Until this thread I've never heard any mention of tire-induced prop damage. I'll pay more attention and ask more questions. FWIW, Friday I took the long way around Lake Hood for other business and observed exactly one set of mud flaps. Those were on a lodge 206 that's put away for winter.
Hey floater, I hope you accomplish your goal. I hate prop damage, too!
SB
Hey floater, I hope you accomplish your goal. I hate prop damage, too!
SB
Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
Stewart, particularly on 180/185's with wheel-skis incorporating a tailwheel (Airglas 3600, LH4000, and FliLite 4000)(Airglas LW2500,FliLite, Aero R2800 for the Cubs and Husky's), rocks are an issue stemming from the main ski-tailwheel 'spraying' rocks. I would not be surprised if a rock got 'sprayed' and ricocheted forward as well.
Several sheet metal shops do a good business rebuilding 180/185 horizontal stabs, and there is even an STC for a 'replaceble' screw-on stab leading edge. Also, the field approvals for thicker and one-piece leading edge skins.
One notable Talkeetna 135 operation will fly their Fluidyne-equipped aircraft anywhere, but their FliLite-equipped aircraft only do snow or pavement.
You have been exceptionally lucky, cautious, and stayed away from the 'perfect' shape of gravel, or are running a Fluidyne, NOT a FliLite.
Bushwheels on your mains and a Wide Tailfork will save you in the summer, too. It's amazing how Bushwheels and a wide tailfork throw less than, say, 8.50's and a narrow tailwheel. I suppose a tall tailwheel helps, if you can get it tuned to turn good and still not shimmy.
.Stewart..not arguing your experience, just adding a voice to the ".....it will happen..." camp.
Several sheet metal shops do a good business rebuilding 180/185 horizontal stabs, and there is even an STC for a 'replaceble' screw-on stab leading edge. Also, the field approvals for thicker and one-piece leading edge skins.
One notable Talkeetna 135 operation will fly their Fluidyne-equipped aircraft anywhere, but their FliLite-equipped aircraft only do snow or pavement.
You have been exceptionally lucky, cautious, and stayed away from the 'perfect' shape of gravel, or are running a Fluidyne, NOT a FliLite.
Bushwheels on your mains and a Wide Tailfork will save you in the summer, too. It's amazing how Bushwheels and a wide tailfork throw less than, say, 8.50's and a narrow tailwheel. I suppose a tall tailwheel helps, if you can get it tuned to turn good and still not shimmy.
.Stewart..not arguing your experience, just adding a voice to the ".....it will happen..." camp.
S
StewartB
Hey, I never stop learning. I use FliLites on the 12 and will watch the little tail tire damage on the tail. It is bigger and softer than what's on Airglas skis so I have that going for me. And it retracts for ski ops. I have a friend that uses penetration skis on his Cub. When he lands on gravel it sounds like a train wreck. I imagine my skis sound similar. For no tire and ground clearance? Advantage AirGlide. But then there's the CG issue. Advantage FliLite. So far I really like the FliLites. I just heard of a mod to remove the FliLite lifting cable and add hydraulic cylinders at the little aft tires. Any experience with that? Worth pursuing?
My Cessna's horizontal tips are beat up but it isn't plainly visible so I live with it. I've replaced them before. I stopped chasing rock chips in those long ago. The rubber on my leading edges has done a good job on them. The only real damage to my tail was pilot induced when the tail fell off a jack. I learned something from that episode.
My 180's empty tail weight in 3-point is 200#. OUCH!
SB
My Cessna's horizontal tips are beat up but it isn't plainly visible so I live with it. I've replaced them before. I stopped chasing rock chips in those long ago. The rubber on my leading edges has done a good job on them. The only real damage to my tail was pilot induced when the tail fell off a jack. I learned something from that episode.
My 180's empty tail weight in 3-point is 200#. OUCH!SB
Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
Stewart, thanks for the reply.
I put a SuperCub on FliLites a few years ago. I've noticed a bunch of new patches on his fuselage and tail. The a/c has a Dan's Imron top coat for paint, so I'm not surprised that it gets dinged very easily.
I put a Husky on Aero R-2800 retracable skis a few years ago. The first takeoff at Lake Hood dinged up the tail. Those R2800's are running 6.00x6 tires (
), and those skinny little main ski-tailwheels (SnowGo bogie-wheels) must be throwing the gravel too.
These are two that were informed before they flew that this would be an issue.
Chris Donnelly at Airglas had designed a 'mud flap' for the tailwheels on the LH4000 ski, but it has never been incorporated in production models. These guys know about the issue.
I put a SuperCub on FliLites a few years ago. I've noticed a bunch of new patches on his fuselage and tail. The a/c has a Dan's Imron top coat for paint, so I'm not surprised that it gets dinged very easily.
I put a Husky on Aero R-2800 retracable skis a few years ago. The first takeoff at Lake Hood dinged up the tail. Those R2800's are running 6.00x6 tires (
), and those skinny little main ski-tailwheels (SnowGo bogie-wheels) must be throwing the gravel too.These are two that were informed before they flew that this would be an issue.
Chris Donnelly at Airglas had designed a 'mud flap' for the tailwheels on the LH4000 ski, but it has never been incorporated in production models. These guys know about the issue.
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
Dave,
That is one advantage of the Rosti Fernandez wheel skis--no tailwheel on the skis, they run on 8.50 tires, and provide about three to four inches of ground clearance back aft, even without the tailwheels.
They aren't cheap, and I don't know if they're still working on a Cub STC or not.
Great skis in any case.
MTV
That is one advantage of the Rosti Fernandez wheel skis--no tailwheel on the skis, they run on 8.50 tires, and provide about three to four inches of ground clearance back aft, even without the tailwheels.
They aren't cheap, and I don't know if they're still working on a Cub STC or not.
Great skis in any case.
MTV
aktango58
FRIEND
9aa9
I ate a 180 tail in two weeks. fist size rocks on the camp strip, Gar-Aero tires and lots of breaks to get slowed down when heavy. Not pretty- could have paid for flaps that time.
Last week on the deer hunt I had to taxi through some wet tidal mud. Got to watch the mud and muck fly off the bushwheels forward...
Mud on prop, cowl, windshield, wings fuselage, and tail...
Many conditions it does not matter, you can not get stuff to throw, but in the wrong conditions
As far as skis, the Aero 2800 do have a tail wheel issue, but better than begin stuck without skis!
Last week on the deer hunt I had to taxi through some wet tidal mud. Got to watch the mud and muck fly off the bushwheels forward...
Mud on prop, cowl, windshield, wings fuselage, and tail...
Many conditions it does not matter, you can not get stuff to throw, but in the wrong conditions
As far as skis, the Aero 2800 do have a tail wheel issue, but better than begin stuck without skis!
S
StewartB
Before I bought my FliLites I asked FSDO about getting an approval and was told I'd have no problem. My inspector said the same applied to Fernandez skis. If I could find some he'd approve the installation. I already had a purchase commitment for the FliLites so I went that direction. My wheel use for these will primarily be at Hood, so dust is a much bigger threat than rocks.
Limited ground clearance when retracted is something a guy needs to seriously consider when choosing wheel skis. Springtime's soft ground can be a real problem with FliLites. Add ruts and it makes some strips unusable. The little 800s on the mains are bad enough with their small stature and decreased prop clearance but add soft ground and the only way to taxi is with lots of power. Prop dings are a real problem.
SB
Limited ground clearance when retracted is something a guy needs to seriously consider when choosing wheel skis. Springtime's soft ground can be a real problem with FliLites. Add ruts and it makes some strips unusable. The little 800s on the mains are bad enough with their small stature and decreased prop clearance but add soft ground and the only way to taxi is with lots of power. Prop dings are a real problem.
SB
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