• If You Are Having Trouble Logging In with Your Old Username and Password, Please use this Forgot Your Password link to get re-established.
  • There is no better time to show your support for SuperCub.Org than during our annual calendar campaign! All the details are HERE

Horton vs Sportsman

M

motoadve

Registered User
New poster here.
Has anyone flown both STOL kits and can compare them?
Is the Sportsman really that much better?

According to Stene aviation it is.
 
I have had both.

Right now I have a sportsman on my 205

I think performance wise they are pretty close to the same.

Sportsman advertised a speed gain for my 205.
I thought that was too good to be true...
Sure enough it was B.S.

If you will be using wing covers the horton uses stall fences that will get hung up on the covers.

The Sportsman uses foam blocks glued in place with silicone for support.
The Sportsman adds a little more wing area.

I do worry about corrosion on the Sportsman from the foam blocks in the long run.

They both take about the same time to install.

Either kit is worth doing.

Good Luck
 
The Sportsman is a much better kit, in my opinion. That is from experience with an airplane before and after. The Sportsman cuff is much more aggressive, and lowers the stall speed significantly. The Bush or Horton kits have a much smaller cuff, and less performance increase.

Go with the Sportsman. Stall speed is significantly reduced, and the stall becomes REALLY tame.

As Trent said, they both require about the same labor to install, so go for the bigger cuff. You'll like it.

MTV
 
I've looked at the Sportsman cuff for years. Friends I know who've added it aren't nearly as impressed with the cuff as they are with Wing-X extensions. Wing-X is the hot ticket for STOL mods on a Cessna from what I can ascertain. You can see a clear difference in the aircraft's speeds and distances after the extensions go on. I haven't added them myself but I may change my mind at any moment. I have several friends who wonder what's taking me so long.

SB
 
Sportsman's for sure...

x-wing is great if you can still fit in your hanger with them... that might be my first choice
 
A question for you is what wing leading edge are you starting with??

The Cessna "Camber-lift" leading edge (later model Cessna) is very similar to the Horton/Bush/Owl cuff. Sportsman is a slght improvement, but maybe Micro-Aerodynamice VG's (NOT BLR vg's) on the Camber-lift VS Sportsman on a Camber-lift is another choice.

Virgin early Cessna leading edge VS Horton..........Horton is nice.........Sportsman is 'nicer'.

I'd reccomend Sportsman over Horton if I was choosing between those two on an "early wing". I don't hate the early wing, but I believe the cuffs and VG's improve it for slow flight and turbulent air slow flight.

VG's are effective, in my opinion, for an early wing, but Horton with VG's is quite a bit better than the virgin early wing with or without VG's, for sure!!

Wing-X is great for carrying more load! I have not flown an early wing with the Wing-x, only the cuffed wings (camber-lift, Horton/Bush/Owl, and Sportsman) with Wing-X. Wing-X rocks. Takes about 40 hours to install, same as a Sportsman kit. Costs a bit over 5K for the Wing-X kit.

The 'stall fence' on the Horton is not an issue with wing covers at all, in my experience.

What wing are you starting with? DAVE
 
.....that is a bit jumbled to read. Maybe I could have said it this way.....

......What leading edge are you starting with? Camber lift or early semi-symetrical?

.......If you have decided to do one or the other, Sportsman is better than a Horton.

......If you have a "Camber-lift" leading edge, maybe try VG's before doing a new STOL cuff. And a Horton isn't much, if any, improvement over "Camber-lift", but MicroAerodynamics VG's on Horton/Camberlift are an improvement in turbulent air while flying slow.

AANNNNDDDDD..................Do you need an improvement? I know a guy who loves mods, even the RSTOL, but most of what he does with his C-180 is go the cabin strip, and desn't see any necessity to spend money on performance improvements such as this.
 
Mine is a 1973 P model.
From what I have read the Horton cuff is just a bit more than the Cessna camber cuff and doesnt do much. The Horton wing tips and stall fences might help there.
The Sportsman STOL increasing the wing area claims to do a lot more.

Mine has Horton and Vgs, I have the opportunity to sell the Horton, and install the Sportsman for a low labor fee. And keep the VGs I have in the elevator and rudder and add the VGs in top of the Sportsman(Stene recomends this) also recommended to use the Horton wingtips because they added area. And to remove the stall fences and flap gap seals.

According to Stene Avaition Stall speed of the 182 with the Sportsman is between 32 and 38kts full gross (depending on the CG).

Mine the way it is right now stalls at 50mph IAS full gross.

For short field landings I approach at 57 to 60mph, pull power off and sinks like a rock.

I do want the improvement, do lots of photo shoots, and there are some 1200ft strips.
I know I great pilot can take a stock early cessna in and out? of this no problem.
The Sportsman's claim it shortens the take off distance quite a bit.

Looked into wing X but there are lots of crosswinds where I fly and seems to be you loose some aileron control .

I know the only way to notice the difference is to fly it real slow or else it will feel the same basically.

So the setup Im looking for will be Sportsman with VGs.
 
I'm concidering adding Sportsman and Wing X next winter, (stock 180A). I've flown cuffs, but no Wing X. My concern is loosing any cruise speed, I didn't buy a 180 to go slow, but would like better float/ski performance. I know they claim it will actually be faster but......Anyone have any real before/after experience with cruise speed?
 
To me the best performance mod for a Cessna is horsepower. With stock wings and a stock motor I could easily land in places where I couldn't get back out safely. No STOL kit I know of will correct that problem as effectively as the addition of horsepower and subsequently a better prop. I can't think of any situation that I've ever been in with my own 180 where this isn't true. The heavier you fly, the truer it gets, too.

SB
 
I have an older 172 (1960) and have looked extensively into installing one of the leading edge kits.
I have to agree with StewartB in the aspect of being able to land much shorter than I can take-off. I sure wish I could afford to "up" the horse power in my mighty 172 but that is not going to happen anytime soon. I realize lowering the stall speed will allow me for a shorter take-off run so I may end up with a Sportsman Kit eventually also.
The vast majority of responses I have gotten over the years is to go with the Sportsman Kit. Not sure I would remove one kit just to install a competitors kit unless I had money burning a hole in my pocket or there was a big gain in performance. Sounds like the responders here may think there just may be enough of a gain to warrant it. If you do it, please post back here with your findings.
Thanks,
WW
 
Last edited:
Mark, On the Ag model Cessna's a horton didn't help or hurt speed on the GPS. It did make it land around 5 mph slower and was a bit better in the turn but this was on the later "camber lift" wing that your 180 doesn't have. I would think you will see a bigger advantage in slow handling and who knows on cruise. Best part is it is a easy way to clean up old bird strikes on a spray plane.

You must be a tough son-of-a-gun to be able to stand all the noise and heat of a old 180 after climbing out of a 802

Dave
 
the setup Im looking for will be Sportsman with VGs.

And you will be the test pilot. Check with CC and others - apparently the BL VGs work, but I cannot attest to that. The Micro VGs do not seem to fit well with the Sportsman. In either case, no engineering test flights have been done, and compatibility is up to the installer. You become the test pilot.

I am not a high time 180 pilot, but I have flown most variations, including Robinson, Horton, factory cuff, Sportsman, and Sportsman with Micros. For just all around fun in the pattern, trying for minimum landing rollout and accurate touchdown I would choose Robinson first, then just a stock or Horton cuff. Again, that is without measuring anything, just going by feel.
 
For sure will keep the VGs on the elevator and rudder.
Dont know yet if adding the VGs on top.
Want to investigate more.
The owner of Stene aviation, who sells the Sportsman has VGs on top of the wing of his 180. And recommends them.
 
My plane is also a 73 182P. I have the wing extensions, no cuffs. There is no speed penalty on floats, perhaps because the plane seems to fly flatter, and maybe because of this the floats drag less. There is a very noticeable difference lifting a load with the extensions. It flies slower, in the air, off the water, and onto the water. I have no numbers to back up my claims. Just flight experience. As for less aileron authority in crosswinds, I don't think you would notice. Granted on floats you are generally taking off/landing somewhat into the wind. But I've dealt with some pretty nasty gusts from 60 degrees off the nose, and rudder and aileron have always lifted the wing. I figured I'd try my ailerons before adding VG's, and glad I did. I don't need VG's. As far as STOL mods, you might be better with MT prop. 40 pounds off the nose and instant throttle response made an incredible difference on my plane. Russ
 
bob turner said:
the setup Im looking for will be Sportsman with VGs.

And you will be the test pilot. Check with CC and others - apparently the BL VGs work, but I cannot attest to that. The Micro VGs do not seem to fit well with the Sportsman. In either case, no engineering test flights have been done, and compatibility is up to the installer. You become the test pilot.

I am not a high time 180 pilot, but I have flown most variations, including Robinson, Horton, factory cuff, Sportsman, and Sportsman with Micros. For just all around fun in the pattern, trying for minimum landing rollout and accurate touchdown I would choose Robinson first, then just a stock or Horton cuff. Again, that is without measuring anything, just going by feel.
Click to expand...

That is hilarious Bob.

A Robinson will beat ANY combination of VG's or horsepower that any Cessna can come up with for Take off and Landing. But those little helo's will only do about 110 knots in cruise, and I've yet to see one haul the load my early 180 Cessna can.

Also, FYI, the issues with Sportsman cuffs and VG's that I've discussed with very high-time 180/185 drivers here in Alaska occurred with the BLR kit. Bad things. There is never an excuse for vortex generators that work "...at lower angles of attack...", as the BLR salesmen purport it to work.

Mark D., no cruise speed penalty with the Wing-X/Horton/MicroVG '55 C-180 I have much personal experience with. Others have proclaimed cruise speed increases with their Wing-X. My assumption is the affect of the increase in aspect ratio with the Wing-X.

DAVE
 
TrentF said:
.....
The Sportsman uses foam blocks glued in place with silicone for support.
.....
I do worry about corrosion on the Sportsman from the foam blocks in the long run.
....
Click to expand...

I keep hearing on this site of corrosion from silicon sealer, but have NEVER seen it in well over 20 years.... is this really an issue or a wives tale?????? (anyways the blocks are siliconed on top of your old paint anyway!)
 
I have installed over 10 Horton kits on cessnas, 180's 182's 172's 206's ect. I also have put on the VG's so there always has been a reduction in
cruise speed. I am in the process of finishing up an old strait wing 150/150 and I went with the sportsman on this one, I have not flown it yet but
I expect some great results. The cuff looks bigger and they claim it is, also no stall fence. I was told it does nothing. On the 206 I built I had fences and aileron fences
that I got from wipaire. That aircraft flew without losing altitute at around 18Kts indicated (flaps down power on) full aileron control and turn capabilities.
as for installation:
I HATE the rivits used with the Horton, too much grinding afterwards and you always hit the alclad off the cuff.
I didnt like the foam blocks on the Sportsman but who knows. I have found alot of kits with corosion issues around the rivets after awhile.
Make sure after drilling all those holes that you prime (both sides) and I dip the rivets in primer as well before pulling.
This seems to help. I seal the top edge with a 2 part epoxy that I get from autobody supplier to keep water out.
Leave the bottom to drain. I like the inspection panel doublers on the sportsman, kind of trick. I wish the sportsman would
form the landing light cover to the leading edge profile, I dont like a wrap around flimsy part, IMO.
The VG's will amout for many razor like cuts while fueling and will get bent from lineguys laying the hose on them.
Kits are worth the work just remember they work best under power coming in like a duck flapping its wings backward nose high.
I set the plane up for slow flight config, nose up, power to 5oo per min decent and add at touchdown. stops on a dime
I have installed some kits just to watch the owners have no clue how to use them. (power off diving to runway)
We use a 600x30 foot strip on a small island off from Martha's vineyard and have no problem in a heavy 206, 172 180 hp ect.
corosion is our biggest enemy as the plane is 15 feet from the water all day.
Stalls are about non existent power on or should I say a non event, no breaking to one side just mush.
FUN!!!
 
When we redid our 62 185 at Beegles, we pulled a Horton and replaced it with a Sportsman, although in fairness so many things changed it is hard to attribute what change in performance was due to the Sportsman. No Wing X or VG's on this installation.

When we put a 206 on floats, we did a Sportsman and wing extensions, and the change in performance was astounding.

Not sure that I would pull a Horton and replace it with a Sportsman, unless in the middle of a big project, but if I was picking a kit for a plane without mods, without question, it would be the Sportsman.
 
Dave - interesting comment. My experience with the Sportsman was on a 1972 bird, and I did not get to fly it enough to get a real feel before the owner put Micros on it. I insisted that the installer get a Sportsman-compatible template, and that is when I found out that you can legally combine these things without approved testing and without compensating for the increased chord. They glued them on using the stock wing template. And nobody tested the combination before signoff.

My impression was that the airplane with Micros and Sportsman was not as comfortable on approach as it was stock! So I made a few phone calls, and talked to the BLR folks, who by then had sold out to CC. They all agreed with me that the Micros were not a good addition to the Sportsman, but that the BLRs produced spectacular results. I have flown the BLRs on a Super Cub, and am not impressed beyond the Micros. I actually prefer the stock setup with flaps that go down to 50+ whatever legal tolerance is available, but do not mind the VGs. They do not seem to hurt anything.

For me, the real performance gains come from 160HP, Borer prop, and a very lightweight Cub. Those seem to perform the best, no matter what else is hung on them. The 180 Cub is a screamer, even at 1250 empty.

I do love the Cessna 180, and a cuff is nice. I would skip the VGs on a 180, personally.
 
I believe he was teasing you about your use of Robinson where you meant Robertson. Most of us knew what you meant.

But hell, I'm just a guy with a really nice 180 that likes to take the family to the cabin. What would I know?

SB
 
Last edited:
mike mcs repair said:
I keep hearing on this site of corrosion from silicon sealer, but have NEVER seen it in well over 20 years.... is this really an issue or a wives tale?????? (anyways the blocks are siliconed on top of your old paint anyway!)
Click to expand...


I've never seen it either, but the smell of rtv is the same as acetic acid.
Used to use it to process film.

I have used silicone on bare aluminum for a wear guard for engine baffle seals without ill effects.
 
I can't imagine corrosion being an issue on a Sportsman behind the foam blocks. I BELIEVE those are closed cell foam blocks, and they're attached with a coating of adhesive, over top of the original paint. If anything, the areas under the blocks should be BETTER protected from corrosion.

MTV
 
mike mcs repair said:
I keep hearing on this site of corrosion from silicon sealer, but have NEVER seen it in well over 20 years.... is this really an issue or a wives tale?????? (anyways the blocks are siliconed on top of your old paint anyway!)
Click to expand...

Good point Mike, as one that has brought it up in the past, I feel compelled to respond. Gotta say, most of the time I've seen troubles have been with painted steel. Might be coincidental that they would typically be areas trapping moisture. I've certainly seen many areas where it was used and no resulting corrosion as well.

This is from FAA AC 43-4A, chapter 4, paragraph 412(f)(3)(ii): "...In addition, many silicone sealing compounds produce acetic acid (vinegar smell) while curing, which can lead to severe corrosion problems. The use of silicone sealing compounds on aircraft should be limited to those non-corrosive products that conform to Specification (MIL-A-46146)."

The following link may be of interest as well:
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=65119

Mark J
 
I added the Sportsman last May, I did put VGs, and removed flap gap seals.
very happy and the difference is big.
now approaches for short field are 50 mph, and have no sink , and enough elevator for the flare.

I have put 200hrs since the installation and highly recommend it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Buschpilot
Removing Horton STOL for Sportsman?
Replies
10
Views
971
BC12D-4-85
BC12D-4-85
CubDriver218
Vgs vs sportsman
2
Replies
53
Views
26K
Barnstormer
B
Tom3holer
Sportsman Stol issue with w 185
Replies
1
Views
2K
mike mcs repair
mike mcs repair
Jon B.
Federal skis - A2000-A vs. A2000
Replies
2
Views
2K
Jon B.
Jon B.
H
new Husky flaps & ailerons...????
Replies
24
Views
5K
flagold
flagold
Back
Top