Good Training Idea

[OVEREASYGUY]

Those who take cross country trips now and then inevitably end up dealing with weather. I attended an AOPA safety seminar recently which was excellent. One of the video clips showed a non instrument rated pilot getting into IMC – he survived – it was just a short time in IMC however, the AOPA guys point was now this pilot realizes nothing bad happened – so next time he pushes things a little more.

The more I fly my super cub the more comfortable I feel in it. I decided last night to test my skills. I was on a mission to really impress the instructor. Here’s what I did.

I rented a C-150 – I wanted something different – unfamiliar – I have not flown one in 2 years. – we flew out of Portland, Maine – a Class C airport and flew up to Lewiston/Auburn (KLEW). I did a few landings and then put on my hood and the mission became to get on the ground using instruments and my GPS only. WOW what a trip that was – it was like playing a video game. I took my hood off at 500 feet – thinking I’d be way up there – geez it looked like we were scrapping the tree tops! I forgot that KLEW’s elevation is 288 feet – so that means I was only 212 feet AGL.

A few times I had to say – ok – forget the GPS – fly the airplane – get back in control as I was falling off the table. It’s pretty easy to get focused on the GPS and think that is the key to saving your butt – after all that’s what usually gets most of the credit for being the neat little gadget which got you there - not the airplane.

I believe flying under the hood during the daytime is not the same as being in real IMC. – You can frequently see out of the corners of the hood and that helps some. At night – you see nothing.

Anyway after this training exercise I decided I don’t know it all yet! It was fantastic training and I highly recommend a trip like this to test your skills.

Cliff in Maine.

 

[behindpropellers]

I think you are going to kill yourself.

If you are going to push the limits go get the instrument rating.

There is a lot more to it than just flying.

Half assing the instrument skills will just put you six feet under.

Sorry to be so blunt.


Tim

 

[jon s. blocker]

Good training idea?

I'm sorry, but I would really question an instructor who would let his student , not instrument rated, fly under the hood, at night, at 212ft. Where is there any safety in that. It doesn't leave any room for any error IMHO. Sorry but I don't have any desire to loose anymore pilots due to miscalculations, however slight they might be. Like Tim said, get the rating, you'll be glad you did. Jon

 

[750XL]

when I am at work flying an E-110 Bandit at night, I always make sure that I am following the 1 in 3 rule NO MATTER WHAT. never lower that 1000ft AGL 3 miles back, never ower than 2000ft AGL 6 miles back etc etc.

If you think you're some kind of hotshot because you can fly with a hood on at night, I just hope that you don't take your family flying because they don't deserve to die because of your lack of knowledge.

By the way, doing what you were doing and "forgetting" about the airport elevation is just stupid. I won't apologize for being rude because you should know better- having a licence and all.

That's why there are approach plates with minimum descent altitudes.

If you felt like you were playing a video game, you obviously had no idea of what you were getting yourself into.

 

[mvivion]

Not one, but two people looking to die in an airplane .

Someone in the FAA should have a LOOONNNNNGGGGG heart to heart talk with that flight instructor.

I wonder if HE learned anything.

(Note: I'd have said HE or SHE, cept I happen to know that most women are way smarter than this.)

MTV

 

[750XL]

Is that why most books in aviation use He, Him etc???

 

[Christina Young]

I highly recommend a trip like this to test your skills.

I highly recommend that your luck not run out!

 

[750XL]

Thinking to himself that what he did was cool and thinks we'll all respect and look up to him!

ha! that made my day!

Makes me feel alot smarter anyway...

 

[behindpropellers]

Thinking to himself that what he did was cool and thinks we'll all respect and look up to him!

ha! that made my day!

Makes me feel alot smarter anyway...

I would rather see some constructive critizim rather than bashing. Cliff is an excited low time pilot, please take that into consideration. Pushing him away from some great advice will only hurt all of us.

Cliff-

Find a great instructor and get your instrument ticket asap.

Tim

 

[duckhunter]

good training

cliff, If you have time and money by all means get an instrument rating, you will learn a lot and be a safer pilot, if not spend as much time becoming the best vfr pilot you can, take a good pilot with you on marginal days, with a cub if you aren't in the mountains you have a lot of options other airplanes don't, some of the best pilots i know don't fly ifr by choice

 

[Cubdude]

Don't fly at night unless you have to do it for a living.

 

[750XL]

hey,

I do it every other day only because it's IFR, 2 PT6's and I get paid. It's alot of fun but there's nothing to see!

 

[mvivion]

Tim makes an excellent point. My comments were intended to be directed at the imitation flight instructor.

Cliff,

Good for you for attending a safety seminar. Keep that up, they can help.

Find a GOOD, competent flight instructor, a good airplane, and start some basic instrument training. If you don't want to get instrument rated, then at least do enough instrument training to understand some of the pitfalls of the IMC environment.

Also understand that marginal VFR is an evil place to be, and can quickly turn into IMC.

The key to all this is a competent instructor.

I'm really sorry you didn't luck out on this one, but fire him, and find a good one. They're out there.

Practice during daylight first. IF then you want to geek around at night, bear in mind that night can turn into IMC in a heartbeat. I was there last night as a matter of fact.

Keep engaged, keep improving, but do some evaluation prior to doing any flying.

If it looks dumb, sounds dumb, or seems just plain dangerous, politely opt out and find someone else to fly with.

MTV

 

[Tim]

Cliff old friend, it looks like you're getting slapped around a little here. Did you have you're instructor with you when you were doing this excersise, or we're you alone and told him about it? It makes a big difference. A good GPS and some VFR instruments can get you out of trouble if you practice, but if under the hood you should have a check pilot with you, and do it during the day not at night.

Tim

 

[CubLite]

I believe that it was Cling Eastwood that said in one of his "Dirty Harry" movies that "A man must know his limitations". If you get your IFR ticket practice and use your IFR ticket, if you don't and are not comfortable in the soup and at night don't do it. People that do, usually get dead and take innocent people with them.

Pat

 

[sj]

I believe the instrument rating is a valuable rating even for someone who is never going to use it to its full use. As I have stated previously, it is another chance to learn more about the weather, and it teaches you some things that could save your bacon.

sj

 

[Gordon Misch]

I think Overeasyguy is getting unfairly bashed. Here's my interpretation of his post:

He AND instructor (he said "we") flew out and did this stuff. It's perfectly reasonable to assume the instructor deliberately let him muddle his way through, while always being in a position to "save the day". 200' agl can be plenty of room to change an approach in approprate VFR conditions if the airplane is under control. I interpreted the story as relating a valued learning experience, with the lesson being "it ain't as easy as it looks, and it's downright dangerous without a competent safety pilot, and in VFR conditions."

Certainly in the earlier stages of earning my IFR certificate, my instructor had to save the day a time or two, including at MDA. And I doubt if many IFR rated folks were exempt from needing significant help at first.

Maybe I misinterpreted, but it sounds to me like the lesson was likely an informal one designed to bestow some humility. It's obvious that goal was accomplished, and certainly it's a worthy one. One of the best lessons worth teaching is why it's good to do things the "accepted" way! And there's nothing quite as good as a scare to accomplish that - - -

Although algebra is hardly dangerous, (well, some would disagree!) my students who think they know it all and don't want to accept my methods, are routinely offered a problem they can't solve their way. Then, with a little taste of humility, they usually choose to listen to the old man.

I'm surely not advocating driving around in IMC without following the rules, including certification and currency, cuz that would obvioulsy be nuts. But learing first-hand why it's nuts, in VFR conditions and with an instructor, seems perfectly reasonable.

 

[bob turner]

You know, he did say he had his instructor on board. I don't fly at night much any more, but I have several times flown an actual approach to RVR 1600 at night, and survived. I routinely use a handheld GPS with real instruments as backup, and shoot approaches to 100' AGL with a check pilot in the back. Sure it is harder at night, but as I recall, about half of my instrument instruction was at night, and every single jet checkout was at like 3 AM. Take it easy on this guy. Opinion.

 

[polarpete]

VFR at Night

Everyones point is well intentioned I'm sure, a few made hastily I think. I think if you read the text again you might view things from a different prospective. My first impression of the circumstances was the same as 12 Geezer, it was a learning experience where Overeasyguy learned that he has a lot to learn (nothing wrong with that). I think he realized after the flight it is not as easy to fly on instruments if caught when you are a VFR pilot. Hopefully the safety pilot (instructor) is an experienced pilot able to handle anything that may have come up during the flight. Like Mike said VFR at night can quickly change into IMC. If the flight instructor was doing his/her part correctly as the safety pilot then I see no harm. The fact that Cliff didn't realize he would be at only 212 AGL when he looked up means he is inexperienced and didn't consider the field elevation. After all he is not used to thinking like an IFR pilot or scanning like one, he was busy just getting there and keeping control of the airplane. Thats why he had an instructor with him. As far as the 212 feet AGL at night it's no different than if the instructor was making an approach to that airport VFR at night, he would have to pass through that altitude some time to land. Cliff some great points have been made by others about your flight. Don't be discouraged, all of us continue to learn each day (hopefully).

 

[PA-18]

Becarefull...These gps's will let you do cool stuff. I personally have a respect,no fear,of night flying in a single. Those that dont lack somthing...






However it can be done, just like skiing across a lake or bay on your tires,you had just better weight the risk. And lots of folks never fully understand what risk is until that thing up front quits at night,IMC,or 100 yds. short of a shore line. Just my two cent's.

Use good judgement, which comes from experience, and the price of experience is not cheap. Somtimes it cost the life of a friend or two,at best a broke plane. I think most of these guy's here just want you to be carefull. They can be a rough bunch but dont let that bother you, I bet your post wasnt anything that half of them hadnt thought about themselves. :lol:

 

[JP]

I think this post begs a question. What could we do if we had to?

A lot of us fly aircraft that are very minimally equipped from an instrument standpoint. My -11 has the very VFR basics plus an inclinometer (ball). I also have Garmin GPS 196, mounted "remotely" front and center at the bottom of the panel.

I've often wondered how I would do if I inadvertantly got into IMC in the Cub. Granted, getting there inadvertantly means I've made a serious series of errors in judgment that have gotten me there, but the question becomes whether or not I could keep her upright while getting out the soup?

It begs the question, or questions:

1. Using the basic VFR instruments, can I keep the airplane upright and navigate out of the IMC conditions?

2. Using the basic VFR instruments plus the "pseudo panel" on the Garmin 196, can I keep the airplane upright and navigate out of the IMC conditions? ( for those of you unfamiliar with the "pseudo panel", go to http://www.garmin.com/products/gpsmap196/# and click on the "enlarge image" link)

Basic parameters for the experment would include, at minimum, the following:

1. A VFR day
2. An experienced Cub instructor pilot (who is a CFII) as the safety pilot
3. Gobs of altitude (at least 2500')
4. Uncongested airspace
5. Clear rules of engagement between the pilot and safety pilot

Given that, I'm inclined to think it might be a worthwhile bit of training to try. That however, must be severly tempered with the mindset of "just because I know I can do it does not mean I should push my luck in poor weather". Anyway, something to mull over.

 

[StewartB]

If you ever fly into IFR conditions you'll find the hardest thing to do is to apply the hood training. When you lose sight of everything including your wingtips your perception of motion disappears. You hear noise, you see your instruments, and none of it makes any sense. The struggle is to overcome that strange surreal sense and start flying the plane. I have no doubt that most VFR into IFR fatalities result from that strange unfamiliarity that you feel in the first moments after entering a cloud. The battle to gain control of your own thoughts is more difficult than I can describe, and its not something that hood training can prepare you for.

Sensory deprivation and flying don't mix well. Avoidance is the best policy.

Cliff, you want some good training? Get some good foggles, have your instructor take you VFR on top, put your head between your knees while he makes some hard maneuvers to disorient you, then have him hand you the plane while its in an unusual attitude and you're dizzy. Now you'll have a small idea of what its like to fly into a cloud. The cheater part of the exercise is that you always know you have another pilot there. Its much different when you're alone.

Stewart

 

[JP]

That's a very good point. It is totally different in real conditions. Oddly enough, I've always flown the airplane better in actual IFR as opposed to being under the hood. My instructor said that was fairly commonplace.

 

[behindpropellers]

My instructor showed up around my second lesson with a bunch of news papers. After we took off he started covering up the side windows as soon as we were on with ATC. That was a great lesson, no peaking out the side of the foggles.

 

[JP]

When I first started learning to fly (VFR) my instructor used to cover the panel with newspapers. Worked.

 

[Broknbone]

I've often wondered how I would do if I inadvertantly got into IMC in the Cub. Granted, getting there inadvertantly means I've made a serious series of errors in judgment that have gotten me there, but the question becomes whether or not I could keep her upright while getting out the soup?

It begs the question, or questions:

1. Using the basic VFR instruments, can I keep the airplane upright and navigate out of the IMC conditions?

New or seasoned we are all capbable of making errors with serious consequence. A VMC into IMC fatal accident recently happened to a friend of mine who I respected as an experienced pilot.

Nothing beats the real thing and formal IFR training, but a nice safe and cheap way to humble yourself flying IFR on minimum VFR panels and a GPS and practice escape maneuvers out of the weather is with a flight simulator. Microsoft flight simulator, for example, is very realisitic and is thought good enough to be a part of the Medallion Safety Foundation program. Its convenient and you can practice with it often. Using a simulator at home won't officially count for any type of training but I think it can add to your awareness of your limitations and maybe add to your skill level. Worse thing you can crash in a simulator is your computer.

 

[JP]

Agreed, never underestimate the effectiveness of a properly used simulation. That's where I solidified my scan and information flow control prior to going to the real thing. When I transitioned the instructor noticed the difference right from the start.

My Cub, however, is about as far from an instrument platform as one can get. That's why I'm leaning towards actual experience in the present hypothecation of "I've messed up--how do I get out of this alive...?"

As pointed out, we're all capable of getting into trouble. And I think we all, unfortunately, know of someone who did and didn't make it.

 

[StewartB]

Jeff,

It's no mistake that I have a turn & bank instrument in my 12. My unintentional flight into IMC would have ended differently if I didn't have an artificial horizon in the Cessna to indicate that I'd entered a left turn every time I took my eyes off that instrument. No kidding, I had to fight that left turn the entire time, and I had no sensation of a turn. All the stories we hear about the death spiral are true. My Cessna doesn't enter a LH turn when I let go of the controls. I was doing it.

Stewart

 

[mvivion]

Behindpropellers said: "My instructor showed up around my second lesson with a bunch of news papers. After we took off he started covering up the side windows as soon as we were on with ATC. That was a great lesson, no peaking out the side of the foggles"


PLLLEEEEEEAAAAASSSEEEE don't do that, unless you are in actual IMC.

Take a look at the regs and ATC procedures: If you are in VMC, including on an IFR clearance, YOU are required to see and avoid other aircraft.

And you have to have a safety pilot. The expectation is that that person will be able to see out--all around.

MTV

 

[aalexander]

I think Overeasyguy is getting unfairly bashed. Here's my interpretation of his post:

He AND instructor (he said "we") flew out and did this stuff. It's perfectly reasonable to assume the instructor deliberately let him muddle his way through, while always being in a position to "save the day". 200' agl can be plenty of room to change an approach in approprate VFR conditions if the airplane is under control.

Perhaps you missed the fact that this was at night. Night VFR really is a whole different ballgame.

Let's talk about what we do know. His instructor allowed him to descend to 500 ft MSL, somewhere out in the general area of the final approach path, at night.

That's 212 feet above the airport.

You think that sounds like a good idea?

Lets dig a little deeper. There are 2 instrument approach runways at Lewiston, RWY 4 and RWY22. RWY4 has an ILS. The Decision altitude on the ILS is 642 feet. that's 372 feet above the touchdown zone. Normally a Cat I ILS with full approach lighting like Lewiston has a 200 ft DA, if it's 372 feet, there's a reason. Normally that reason is obstacles. The obstacle clearence margins get very slim on short final on an ILS. Being below the DA, somewhere out on final with a handheld GPS at night is not a really smart place to be. Of course the ILS DA is based on following a very precise glidepath which slopes down to the runway. I think it's safe to assume that they were not on the GP. THe LOC only MDA for that runway is 860. the Obstacle clearence for the LOC only procediure may be only 250 feet, so there could be a 610' MSL obstacle right on the final approach course. Not a really good place to be at 500 MSL, at night.


But, we don't know if it was runway 4. On Runway 22 the MDA is 780 ft MSL....now we're almost 300 ft below the MDA, at night. Again not a really smart place to be. Was the instructor aware that 2.4 miles from the RWY 22 threshold, on the final approach path, there's a 643' MSL obstacle?


We may be able to excuse OVEREASYGUY as just not knowing any better and trusting his instructor. No such excuse exists for his instructor.