Getting my TW endorsement...many questions.

[Bret]

This past weekend I started something that I have been looking forward to since I became a pilot, getting my tailwheel endorsement!

Since there are not many reasonably priced, running cubs for rent around here, I decided to train in a 1947 Aeronca 7AC.

So, we preflight the plane, get in, do our runup and taxi out to the runway for takeoff, no problem, up until this point, the experience is not much different than the good old C-150. I line up on the centerline and add full power. At this point, everything changes. I immediately noticed that you have to be WAY more attentive to the rudder than I ever did in the Cessna. I was literally all over the runway. And wow, maybe I was a little rusty but man, it seems that the rudder in the Champ was WAY more sensitive that the Cessna. I was constantly over correcting and going back and fourth like a newbie pilot who had no clue how to coordinate a turn or to hold a heading.

I was feeling really embarrassed. It was at that point that I noticed the feeling start to leave my right hand, which had a death grip on the stick. I had such a grip on the stick that there was an indention in my hand in the shape of the stick. I was also starting to sweat. I decided to take a few deep breaths, relax and just have fun and fly the plane. After that things got a little easier.

We did 2 touch and go's and a full stop. I held the controls while the instructor landed on the first 2 and was told that I would be doing the 3rd one by myself. Our 3rd landing was the best one! It was SO much fun!

Any tips or advice would be great.

Bret

 

[Richgj3]

You may already be doing this. Keep a constant pressure on the rudders. In other words, when you push on one you should be pushing against your other foot as the opposite pedal comes back. If you are too relaxed on the "dead foot" side, that could lead to over controlling.

When I checked out in a Stearman many moons ago, I was told "after you touch down, step on a rudder pedal ANY rudder pedal"

If you watch a J3 land with someone who knows what they are doing, the airplane goes straight and the rudder is "waggling" back and forth. Also you'll find you must stop the turn with opposite rudder almost as soon as the nose starts to move from your original input.

I'm sure your instructor will point out everything. Don't get discouraged. It's not hard, just different.

Another tip is, don't force the tail up with forward stick too soon. This only aggrivates the left turning tendency because of the gyroscopic effect of the prop. Not much on a champ, but it will bite you in a taildragger with a little more HP and a constant speed prop.

Good luck and have fun.

Rich

 

[behindpropellers]

The trick is to get ahead. Just takes some time to learn. Once your feet stop moving, you are behind.

Tim

 

[pzinck]

Get the rigimortis out of those legs.If she starts going right,dont cram left,and vice versa.I used to rock the rudder pedals on final just to make sure i had the feel.back in the day,did'nt need the rating and like a fool i taught myself.My old mans advice was to go easy and dont cram the opposite rudder if drifting the opposite way.He said i would find the plane going round and round.Good luck and don't let all the he men scare you into beleiving it's real difficult.Little girls fly those big tailwheel planes.Just a little patience and practice and you'll find it easy as those nose draggers.

 

[mvivion]

To amplify what these folks have suggested, when you apply rudder, STAB the rudder, smoothly, but stab it, then get off it. Come back to neutral with the rudder. See if that stopped the swerve. If it didn't, stab it again. If it did, now stab it again just to get it swinging back to the centerline. Once it's aligned with the centerline, stab the opposite rudder to stop THAT swerve.

Do things a bit at a time. If you stuff in a wad of rudder, and just stand on the rudder waiting for something to happen, it WILL. Get on the rudder to stop a swerve, then get out of it.

There are three things that are essential in a tailwheel airplane just prior to touchdown:

1) the airplane needs to be on the centerline of the runway
2) the longitudinal axis of the airplane needs to be aligned with the runway centerline.
3) the airplane must be moving in the direction it's pointed.

If any of these issues aren't addressed, the touchdown will be a little sporty.

MTV

 

[JimC]

I learned in a J-3 42 years ago, and am still flying one, but am an average pilot at best, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.

I don't use the rudder much (or any other control for that matter), unless I actually need to. I find that unless conditions are very gusty with a substantial crosswind component, you can go a few hundred feet at a time without adjusting the rudder. When I feel the plane starting to develop a turn, I generally take about as long to correct it as it took to develop the turn. Slow developing turns and I correct slowly, fast turns and I correct rapidly. I was taught not to fan the rudder, and just to use it when and as I needed it. I also don't put active pressure on the rudder pedals -- I just rest my feet on them. Consequently folks on the ground tell me they don't see my rudder move much. That probably means that I don't really know what I'm doing. However, I did use a J-3 for search and rescue flying for about 17 years on and off, and consequently I still have more landings off-airstrip than on. The method I describe above has worked fairly well for me so far on varied surfaces.
JimC

 

[Snert]

For the first couple hours just do full stop landings. Get it down. Get it stopped. Then go again. It gives you a few seconds to process what just happened before things start happening again.

 

[Richgj3]

Jim C

I'm sure you know what you are doing after all that time. The smoothness and minimal control input you describe comes from years of experience. Easy to say, hard to do. I fly with a guy like that. I swear we went on a 3 hour xc in his Bonanza and I don't think I ever saw him move.

I had about 800 hrs in a T-Craft when I went to rent a Stearman at Van Zant AP years ago. After 3 times around the patch, the instructor got out and said "You keep it going straight. That's all I care about" As a person gets more experience, the corrections become smaller because the variations get noticed sooner. I used to tell my instrument students that if they wouldn't let the altitude get off by 50 feet, then it would NEVER be off by 100 feet. Then when they could hold 50, I'd make them try 20. After a while, they get it. When I fly IFR with the guy I described above, I think the instruments are painted on the panel.

Rich

 

[ag-pilot]

tail draggers

Bret, If possible go to a grass or dirt runway. You will find taildraggers are much more forgiving on just about anything that is not pavement then after a few hours you will a much easier time on the pavement.
Dave

 

[Widebody]

Bret,

I think Rich is giving the best Instruction here so far. I think JimC is flying so far ahead of the plane that he don't realize he has pressure on the rudder pedals and is making such small corrections that no one even notices(The way it should be once proficient). Mike talks about STABBING the rudder, the best way to avoid this is never let it get that far, if you do you're headed for trouble. Small inputs and keep it straight. One more thing that no one has mentioned is, you're not in a dragster(advance the throttle slowly). It might seem like a big deal now but all of a sudden everything will click and your going to think boy that was easy. But never let your guard down. I agree with Dave also. Have fun and fly safe.

Brad

 

[zane]

That sounds exactly like my first experience with tailwheel flying. I called myself the Swerver. That was about tailwheel hours ago, and I still have issues with directional control on takeoff and landing, but it IS getting better. I realized that my reactions to getting off centerline needed to be waaaay quicker, and more severe the slower the airspeed. As scary as it is, it is so much more fun than Land-O-Matic.

 

[Bill Rusk]

It has been my experience when doing TW instruction that guys have as much trouble with the elevator as they do with the rudder and I think a lot of ground loops are the result of improper elevator control leading into the ground loop.

STICK BACK STICK BACK STICK BACK


Assuming a three point landing. It is imperative that the stick be all the way against the stop prior to any part of the airplane touching the ground.
Keep it glued to the aft stop. If it is not all the way aft then you are not stalled(possible exceptions) - you have excess energy - you are not as slow as the airplane can go - and you will probably bounce. When you do you will inevitably have removed or lost your XW controls and the airplane will start drifting sideways and no longer be aligned with the runway, so that when you touchdown after the bounce you are near the edge of the runway and all out of wack. Thus the start of the ground loop. Try to land tailwheel first. If you flare too high the airplane will drop in. Thats OK to a point. If it bounces a little and you keep that stick FULL aft it will be done flying and you will stick down.
This is a simplified description but I do think a lot of taildragger problems are from poor elevator control, both wheel and 3 point.

What often happens is the flare is incomplete and so the airplane touches down on the mains with a little downward momentum, this slaps the tail down, long moment arm you see, that increases AOA and thus lift so the airplane becomes airborne again (bounces or balloons) then the student pushes the stick forward which lowers the AOA so the airplane touches again on the mains just about the time the student jerks the stick back and so it bounces again. All this time there are no XW inputs in so the drift and alignment get out of hand. All this has nothing to do with the rudder.


So........ I am not nearly as experienced as some of the folks who are on this site but my input would be that learning a taildragger involves 2 parts. The rudder, which everyone focuses on, and also the elevator.

Best of luck. Get the book The Complete Taildragger Pilot by Plorde. Read it over and over.

Bill

 

[JP]

Some great advice here. No worries--most of us felt like complete doofusus during the first part of the transition. :-? I thought I'd never get it. But then, you just get it. Also, hang loose and don't get tensed up. Take a break if needed. Finally, keep at it. It will all become second nature and you'll do 95% of it without thinking.

 

[Bugs66]

I second what RichGJ3 said and Bill (stick back). That's how I learned and fly today.

 

[prifly]

on take off look at the other end of the runway, you will notice swerves sooner, and can make smaller correction's. raise the tail slowly with slight forward pressure.small correction's Early. small correction's Early

 

[redrooster]

Bret, some good tips here, can't argue with any of them. Regarding training on a grass strip-- good idea. I'm guessing that you're flying Harvey's Champ, or else the one at Arlington. Both airports have grass strips, although the grass at Harveys may not be officially open until later in the year. They tend to X it out unless the ground is good and dry, to prevent runway damage.
Keep at it, all of a sudden things will click-- and then you'll be a tailwheel pilot!

Rooster

 

[JimC]

I learned in a J-3, so never had to go through the tailwheel transition problem that seems to bug folks who are going in the other direction (looking back on it -- lucky me, those were great days back then). For fun flying, my two favorite airplanes are still the J-3 and the Stearman (never had a chance to fly a Stearman with a big engine -- would love to try that sometime).

I strongly agree that folks tend to focus on the rudder to the exclusion of the elevator, and elevator and energy control are just as important. I also like the idea of doing landings to a full stop during the familiarization period. I find that I tend to look out the side rather than down the runway for directional control, but any reference point is fine, long as it isn't too close to the plane. I repeat, my flying skills aren't all that hot -- I just fly a very forgiving cub.
JimC

 

[mvivion]

I'm in agreement with Rich and Brad here. As they say, preventing the swerves in the first place is job ONE. Small corrections, and adhering to the three requirements I listed prior to touchdown will get er done for you most days.

My point with STABS of the rudder, Brad, was that what I see with most beginning tailwheel types is that when a small swerve starts, and they finally notice it, they tend to STEP on a rudder, and hold it. Now, you've got a slingshot going the OTHER way. My point was that if it's going right, stab the left rudder to stop the swerve, don't try to stand on the rudder, and fix it all at once.

I agree fully--you are far better off NOT to swerve to start with, or at the very least to address the swerves so early that little tiny corrections will fix it. That is, however, a much more advanced state than most folks are in their first few hours of tailwheel flying. That IS, though, where one should be trying to go. I haven't seen many folks who just got in a tailwheel airplane and within a few landings they nailed every landing on the center stripe, no swerves, and no apparent control inputs

When you watch a pilot fly an airplane and it appears to be purely effortless, that you are probably watching someone who is good at it. Watch a really good seaplane pilot dock in a wind sometime. Then try it yourself.


MTV

 

[JP]

Bill Rusk, ever since I read your post all I can hear in my head is my TW instrtuctor yelling out:

PUT THAT STICK BACK IN YOUR GUT AND KEEP IT BACK THE ENTIRE TIME YOU ARE ON THE GROUND STICK BACK STICK BACK STICK BACK PULL THE STICK BACK

Of course, I enjoyed hearing that admonition more than "if we were in a Luscombe you would've taken the wheels off on that landing..."

Then, just before he let me loose to solo came this classic: "I don't know what was going on in the last lesson but you obviously figured something out in the interim....."

 

[Lowflybye]

Rudder, Elevator, Aileron, Relax!!! (REAR) Think of it in that order and do not forget to relax...tailwheels are fun and should not be nerve racking.

I do not have nearly the experience that many of these fellows have, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :lol:

Seriously...the tailwheel transition for me was easy, and I picked it up very quickly. I do not attribute my tailwheel transition to superior skills, knowledge, or luck. I attribute it to the fact that I was relaxed and comfortable with airplane so I was able to feel the aircraft instead of allowing my nerves to override my scences. A big contributing factor to being relaxed came from the help of a few good friends having the patience to fly with me and teach me what tailwheels should feel like. Once you settle down and get the feel for it, the rest will fall into place fairly quickly and you will be flying without having to think about it.

-Low

 

[375handh]

jrussell:

My instructor went one further with that Stick Back on landing and taxiing. He would whack the back of my head with the POH if the stick wasn't all the way back. The concept set in pretty quickly.

375HandH

 

[Widebody]

I knew what you meant by stabs of the rudder Mike. All I meant was, try not to let it get there to begin with. Yes you're right about not holding the rudder. I got my TW End. in my 150 pacer but had learned to fly in a C-150. First day I pushed and held the rudder a little to long and the tires were squealing, went off the runway, just missed a runway light and finally got her stopped(the instructor I'm sure) .
I remember sitting there sweaty, half scared and wondering why did I buy a plane like this. The next day it was like an instant replay. The guys were razzing me about having to buy new tires and wondered why I wanted to swerve around runway lights, is that how you drive your car and so on. That time it just made me mad and I've never left the centerline since. 8)

Brad

 

[Bill Ingerson]

Tail Wheel

I bought a 170B from Steve Johnson our beloved leader. We flew together from Kansas to Washington state. Steve's a great teacher on just about any plane.
First thing I did was hire a instructor who has his own 170. He had me land on pavement at 65 miles an hour on two wheels and we ground looped the plane on the first try. Didn't hurt the plane and was very lucky.
Later on he tore the wing off his own plane. That was the last time I used that instructor.
Our own Bill Rusk comes over from the east coast to the west coast (Seattle) and he gives me some instruction (hows that for service) and won't let me pay him. Some of the best advice yet came from Bill.
Stick all the way back on landing just before touching down.
Stay centered, and look all the way down the runway. Met Bill through SuperCub.org
One instructor I was having coffee with said, he tells his students to keep slight pressure on both rudder peddals and move them slightly back and forth on take landing keeping ahead of the plane. This helped me alot.
All of the help talked about on this thread is very good and has helped me alot.

At this point I have a nice 170B in my own hanger.
I have had my pilot licence since 1972
People want to go flying with me all the time, but not yet I don't feel Im ready to take people up yet.

I concider myself to be the most dangerous pilot in the U.S. This is my first airplane, I haven't flown anything since 1973 and it was a 150 cessna.
If the people wanting to go flying with me only knew !

So be careful who you get into a plane with. Stick Back, Stick Back

 

[musket]

I found it helpful to taxi back and forth on the runway (uncontrolled field) a little faster each time so I was developing the 'feel' of the 'plane, the amount of pedal movement / rudder needed to keep it straight, and gradually increasing speed until I could raise the tail. When you get to the end of the runway, come to a full stop, do 1 &1/2 circles to check for traffic and go the other way -- just be careful of the wind (of which you need to develop a greater awareness than most pilots do, anyway).

This is pretty much right out of the training syllabus the WW I pilots used when they were learning, at places like Issoudon (sp?) (French pilot training center).

 

[Bret]

Wow, so much good advice.

Thanks all for the usual buttload of good advice. That is what I like about this site.

Well, after reading all the posts, I definitely know what I did wrong and what I need to do next time. The most obvious thing would be that I was not nearly quick enough on the rudder. I guess I don't remember the rudder being all that important in the old spam can.

I have to admit though that flying that old beater Aeronca Champ 7AC was probably some of the most fun flying I have done. I can't wait to go again.

If any of you guys who live in Western WA near Everett want a flying buddy, let me know. Although I don't have my TW endorsement yet, I would love to learn more.

Bret

 

[gbflyer]

Lots of good tips here, I've learned from them.

I agree with Musket. Everyone is different, but the best thing for me was to practice "driving" on the runway, apron, runway edge, whatever is safe. A really big, open field is also great. Tail up, tail down, on one wheel then the other. No wind at first, then steady crosswind when more comfortable.
Watch out for the light quartering tailwind. That one even bites experienced hands.

After all, flying in a tailwheel A/C is the same as a nose - dragger. It's the ground handling part that's different. It can be a little hard on brake pads however, so keep an eye on them.

 

[Rob Murray]

TW

I hesitate to offer any advice, except to say that the stick (and in some cases the wheel) does some amazing things for a taildragger that many nosewheel pilots may not appreciate.
Full back is a good mantra for most landing situations, but not very helpful when taxiing downwind or with a quartering tailwind. Knowing where to point the stick for any and all situations is part of the game. Next to gusty X-wd landings a circling take off from a small lake tends to give all the controls a pretty good work out. I find I make my best landings when I take the time to analize the wind conditions as I enter the landing area and set up for the type of landing that seems most appropriate. A friend of mine, who did a lot of instructing, said he asked his students, when they were on downwind, what they would have to do to keep the aircraft in a straight line as they touched down. It made them think in advance about the conditions they would be dealing with a few minutes later.

 

[bob turner]

Here's my opinion. I am a successful taildragger instructor, for what it is worth.

Taildragging is a motor skill, developed through practice. If you try to intellectualize it before you start, you will be trying way too hard, and you will get frustrated. You certainly need to know what is going on, so some booklearning is good, but you cannot learn taildragging by listening to experts. Five hours in the pattern, hopefully with some good stiff crosswinds will do it. Whether or not you read all this.

That said, I agree about stick back - except if you bounce too high; you may want to go around instead of holding the stick back and waiting to crash. The other place that stick should be is into the wind. When both mains are on the deck, the stick is at its aileron stop into the crosswind. There are at least two reasons for that, but you only need to do it.

Another area where intellectualizing can get you in trouble is twin engine flying. Try and look at those engine gauges to decide which foot to shove in there. But do it in a simulator, or at an altitude high enough to recover from an incipient spin.

All of that is opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

 

[mvivion]

Of course, the "Stick Back" recommendation misses the best part of the whole deal---Wheel Landings .

MTV

 

[JP]

You're right. I could really use some advice/tips for better wheel landings. Mine are not consistent....