Gary's Super Cub Rebuild

[Gary Ward]

I am in the process of rebuilding a 1962 PA-18/O-320 and have a few questions.

Steve Pierce had rebuilt the fuselage and wings before I purchased the project. Ed Fisher, Gilbert, SC, is finishing it for me.

Here are the mods and work being done:

Engine is narrow deck. Lycon will either rebuild it to 160HP or exchange it for wide deck. I have read lots about this. Some say there is a weight difference, others say not.

23 Gal Dakota Cub Tanks
Flap extension to fuselage
Engine Thrustline Mod
Extended lower baggage with large door
Overhead Cross brace
GW STC to 2000#
Full sliding left window
Metal Headliner
Tail clean out pan
Belly clean out pan
Carbon Fiber Floorboards
HD Extended Gear
29" tires, most likely
AOSS Suspension System
Borer Prop
Avionics and instrumentation: EI CGR 30P/ Garmin GTR225 Comm/Possibly the new Garmin Aera 660

I'm probably leaving out a few things but those are the basics.

???

Landing Gear: I was planning to go with the HD 3" extended gear but there is a set of Cubcrafters 3X3 for sale on Barnstormers at a reasonable price. I understand the difference between the 3" and the 3x3 but just wondering if anyone has operating experience with both and can say yea or new as to which way to go.

This 3x3 was pulled off a new Carbon Cub. Would I need to purchase a STC from CC?

Engine: Stay with the narrow deck or swap out for a wide deck before the rebuild?

Alternator: Accessory case mount or Belt drive?

Before the rebuild was started, this SC had a EW of 1036. My objective is to keep it as light as feasible. I see some that get too heavy. This is my main reason for not considering the 0-360.

Fuselage: Sandblast and prime? or Powdercoat? I can get it blasted and powder coated for under $1000 and the shop appears to know what they are doing and have done several fuselages. I understand there have been some issues with rust popping up from underneath the PC.

Thanks,

Gary

 

[nanook]

I would overhaul the ND and leave it a 150hp. That said & not knowing the condition of the components, if the WD 160hp was not too much more expensive....

The 3rd seat mod is an X brace in the lower fuselage, allows for a wt increase to 180lbs in that baggage area. I'd do the pilot seatbelt attach to the fuselage floor mod. Fuselage flexing and micro-cracking the powdercoat allows corrosion to get under and stay hidden. May not be a problem in the desert country...Redoing a fuselage with powdercoat on it would not be my idea of a good time.

I've never felt the need to move the cub gear (axle) 3" forward. Can you use the AOSS with the CC 3X3 gear?

 

[wireweinie]

Go with a Becker AR6201 radio instead of a tray mount. And connect it with a good intercom system (NAT or PS Engineering). Go with the direct drive alternator (B&C or Plane Power) as it moves some weight off the front of the engine and closer to the CG. Eliminates belt replacement. Dont bother with an alternator bigger than a 20 to 30 amp rating. Especially if you go with LED lights.

And size your wires according to the table in the AC43.13!

Web

 

[mvivion]

If you're really trying to stay light, why not use a fabric headliner?

I agree with Nanook that blast and paint would be my choice for the fuselage frame.

is the carbon cub gear tso'd? In other words, is it an approved part? If so, yes, you'll need the STC. If not, you'd have to get a field approval.....good luck.

i agree with Web on the Becker radio and good quality intercom.

plan on your plane to gain some weight in this process....like a lot.

MTV

 

[Gary Ward]

I would overhaul the ND and leave it a 150hp. That said & not knowing the condition of the components, if the WD 160hp was not too much more expensive....

The 3rd seat mod is an X brace in the lower fuselage, allows for a wt increase to 180lbs in that baggage area. I'd do the pilot seatbelt attach to the fuselage floor mod. Fuselage flexing and micro-cracking the powdercoat allows corrosion to get under and stay hidden. May not be a problem in the desert country...Redoing a fuselage with powdercoat on it would not be my idea of a good time.

I've never felt the need to move the cub gear (axle) 3" forward. Can you use the AOSS with the CC 3X3 gear?

Thanks for the input.

I failed to mention but I am going with the 3rd seat option and installed the attach points for the seat belt.

I believe the AOSS will work with the 3x3 gear but am absolutely sure.

Super Cub Guru, Steve Pierce, told me he has seen some issues with powder coated fuselages. But it sure looks good.

Gary

 

[Gary Ward]

Go with a Becker AR6201 radio instead of a tray mount. And connect it with a good intercom system (NAT or PS Engineering). Go with the direct drive alternator (B&C or Plane Power) as it moves some weight off the front of the engine and closer to the CG. Eliminates belt replacement. Dont bother with an alternator bigger than a 20 to 30 amp rating. Especially if you go with LED lights.

And size your wires according to the table in the AC43.13!

Web

For the last 18 years, in my Giles 202 and the MX2 I have been using an Apolo sl60. Anyway, it is a GPS/Com. The beauty part about it is that it is one of the only radios that allows monitoring the standby frequency. They have been great units but are very long in depth and no longer supported by Garmin. It is nice having the GPS backup. Just 4 spots of info with no moving map. The SL 30s and 40s also allow monitoring standby freq. It is like having 2 radios. The new Garmin 225 also allows that plus it has a huge data base with airport frequencies.

i like the idea of going with a accessory case mounted Alternator. I will be using Aeorled lighting.

Thanks,

Gary

 

[Gary Ward]

If you're really trying to stay light, why not use a fabric headliner?

I agree with Nanook that blast and paint would be my choice for the fuselage frame.

is the carbon cub gear tso'd? In other words, is it an approved part? If so, yes, you'll need the STC. If not, you'd have to get a field approval.....good luck.

i agree with Web on the Becker radio and good quality intercom.

plan on your plane to gain some weight in this process....like a lot.

MTV

I'm starting to think I should just go with the 3" ext. gear and not the 3x3.

And just prime the fuselage and not powder coat.

As for the weight increase..."a lot". Where does it come from? I realize I'm adding a few pounds with the Dakota Cub Tanks, the extended baggage, the cross braces, the aluminum headliner

But I'm losing a few pounds in: Avionics, starter and alternator, getting rid of the header tanks, carbon floor boards

I'm gonna gain a lot going from the 8.50 tires to 29"

Will I be able to keep it below 1100#?

Thanks for your input.

Gary

 

[wireweinie]

For the last 18 years, in my Giles 202 and the MX2 I have been using an Apolo sl60. Anyway, it is a GPS/Com. The beauty part about it is that it is one of the only radios that allows monitoring the standby frequency. They have been great units but are very long in depth and no longer supported by Garmin. It is nice having the GPS backup. Just 4 spots of info with no moving map. The SL 30s and 40s also allow monitoring standby freq. It is like having 2 radios. The new Garmin 225 also allows that plus it has a huge data base with airport frequencies.

i like the idea of going with a accessory case mounted Alternator. I will be using Aeorled lighting.

Thanks,

Gary

The AR6201 will monitor the standby freq and pre program 90 frequencies. Several radios now do that. And at less than two pounds and just under 8.5".

Web

 

[RaisedByWolves]

I went with trig radio and transponder. I really like them. They are light too. You'd be hard pressed to keep it under 1100 on bushwheels. The headliner is 5 lbs.

 

[Cub junkie]

What does Ed want to do on the fuselage coating? If he paints it(I know its just tubes) it will be right. When Ed gets to cover and paint, no matter which process it will be beautiful. Ed ain't guessing when it comes to finish work.

 

[Rice farmer]

I agree with accessory case alternator. Wish I had done that. Where will your battery be? Under seat or firewall? I did the Ly Con 160 which has been quirky. Hard starting, over heating, rough, and uses 10 gph. It does perform well but not sure it's been worth all the trouble. Mine is an a model with metal belly and weighs 1126 with 850's.

 

[DENNY]

If you really want to save weight 11/4 axles are 5lbs lighter than 11/2. I think you will end up around 1150.

DENNY

 

[stewartb]

I dodged a bullet this morning when I found out my new airframe will fit in the powder coater's 20' oven with 5" to spare. My airframe will get blasted, phosphatized, primed, and top coated by my local powder coater. Definitely.

 

[Gary Ward]

What does Ed want to do on the fuselage coating? If he paints it(I know its just tubes) it will be right. When Ed gets to cover and paint, no matter which process it will be beautiful. Ed ain't guessing when it comes to finish work.

Sounds like you know Ed. Maybe you are the person he built a Carbon Cub for....I don't know. Yes, he does great work. I believe he told me he had built 22 planes, most were plans built. Lots were Cassut type racers and Mong Sports. And a couple were his own design. This is his first Super Cub rebuild and the mods are giving him fits. Not the mechanical part, just trying to figure out what you can and can't do without getting too far out of bounds with legality on a Certified Airplane.

I had my engine mount for the MX2 powder coated and it looks great but Steve Pierce and others are leery of powder coating the frame so I'm now leaning toward prime and paint.

Gary

 

[Gary Ward]

I dodged a bullet this morning when I found out my new airframe will fit in the powder coater's 20' oven with 5" to spare. My airframe will get blasted, phosphatized, primed, and top coated by my local powder coater. Definitely.

So, when you say top coat, do you mean paint or powder Coat? My guy has a large enough booth and has done numerous airframes, some painted and some powder coated. I saw one he powder coated and he could not understand why oil had come out of some of the pinholes. This was a factory frame but not sure what it was. He was not aware that most everyone coats the inside with linseed oil.

Gary

 

[stewartb]

I referred to powder coating and the primary reason I prefer it is because the powder coat shop can do better prep than I can do and everyone knows the key to a good paint job is good prep. Phosphatizing is icing on the cake.

Not many guys use tube oil on new airframes. New 4130 already has an oil coating inside the tubes. At any rate any pinholes should have been sealed.

 

[Eddie Foy]

Beware! There are different grades of powdercoat. Just like paint.

 

[cubdriver2]

Every trailer hitch on every truck around here came powder coated when new. Try to find one 2 years old or older that is not a rusty looking mess.

Glenn

 

[Gary Ward]

I referred to powder coating and the primary reason I prefer it is because the powder coat shop can do better prep than I can do and everyone knows the key to a good paint job is good prep. Phosphatizing is icing on the cake.

Not many guys use tube oil on new airframes. New 4130 already has an oil coating inside the tubes. At any rate any pinholes should have been sealed.

What is phosphatizing? If I don't go with powder coating, I will at least have the shop sand blast or whatever they do then prime and perhaps paint. I'm not sure but they may put it in the oven to cure the paint.

Gary

 

[mvivion]

Having build several planes similar to what you are doing if it's 1160-80 you did a good job. That 1034lbs must be pipers special scales that they weigh with at the factory because they never seem to be close after rebuild.

Which was my point as well. I'd bet that if you weighed the plane prior to teardown you'd find it a bit heavier already.

But, all you can do is try to keep it light. Good luck.

MTV

 

[stewartb]

What is phosphatizing? If I don't go with powder coating, I will at least have the shop sand blast or whatever they do then prime and perhaps paint. I'm not sure but they may put it in the oven to cure the paint.

Gary

People usually call it Parkerizing if that helps. It's a chemical conversion coating for corrosion prevention on steel. I'm not schooled on it. Everything I know is from comments from the powder coater and what I've read on the internet.

 

[RaisedByWolves]

Which was my point as well. I'd bet that if you weighed the plane prior to teardown you'd find it a bit heavier already.

But, all you can do is try to keep it light. Good luck.

MTV

1149 when I started 1076 when I finished. New radios, light weight battery ditched the generator for an alternator, added a cgr and new radio and transponder. 31 inch bushwheels +3 gear and bbw tailwheel. If you're careful you can do it but little things add up. I'm hoping I'm under 1100 after the recover. I'm mindful to keeping it light.

 

[stewartb]

Gary, your project is intriguing. Do your sponsor relationships influence your Cub decisions? I'll be interested to hear how Ly-Con steers you. I'd guess your certificated 320 will pump out more than 160hp. Cub projects are fun. Enjoy yours.

 

[wireweinie]

People usually call it Parkerizing if that helps. It's a chemical conversion coating for corrosion prevention on steel. I'm not schooled on it. Everything I know is from comments from the powder coater and what I've read on the internet.

Parkerizing is the finish you see on steel parts on rifles from the WWII and Korean war era. It gives a fair amount of corrosion resistance but is a rough surface finish. On small arms this is used to hold a coating of oil from the cleaning process. It will give a good surface for a top coat to adhere to.

Web

 

[flylowslow]

Stewart, what did they want to powder coat your fuselage? got an estimate today for mine for $1,500.00

 

[behindpropellers]

What is phosphatizing? If I don't go with powder coating, I will at least have the shop sand blast or whatever they do then prime and perhaps paint. I'm not sure but they may put it in the oven to cure the paint.

Gary

Gary,

You can read here: http://www.pfonline.com/articles/pretreatment-for-painting

As far as powder coating goes - you can buy primer powder coatings with corrosion proofing qualities (been 2 years since I dealt with this) but they must be top coated. Typically you phosphate wash and then do a primer powder coat at a lower bake temp and then follow up with a topcoat and higher temp bake.

Powder coating sure does look nice. Would be interested to see some testing to see if rust will run under a properly prepped substrate as the one listed above.

Tim

 

[Gary Ward]

1149 when I started 1076 when I finished. New radios, light weight battery ditched the generator for an alternator, added a cgr and new radio and transponder. 31 inch bushwheels +3 gear and bbw tailwheel. If you're careful you can do it but little things add up. I'm hoping I'm under 1100 after the recover. I'm mindful to keeping it light.

That's awesome! You gotta be happy to knock 75# off the EW.

I realize that it is easy to add weight with all the mods we do but there is also a lot of weight to take out of the older planes considering the weight of their starters, generators, batterie and radios and even the cotton covering was heavier.

Gary

 

[RaisedByWolves]

That's awesome! You gotta be happy to knock 75# off the EW.

I realize that it is easy to add weight with all the mods we do but there is also a lot of weight to take out of the older planes considering the weight of their starters, generators, batterie and radios and even the cotton covering was heavier.

Gary

Exactly. Just have weight savings on the top of your head and don't go crazy with adding stuff.

 

[ATCT]

I may have missed it (I miss everything according to my wife, but thats another ball game) but the mod I love the most is the battery under the seat from Atlee Dodge. Knocked a few pounds off my cub when I did that last year. I also like adding a chart tray (which was done to mine prior to me buying it) by your right knee.

Enjoy the cub project! What airport are you working out of?

Clint
Big T Airpark - Senoia, GA

 

[Southern Aero]

Hi Gary

Don't know if you remember me but I met you a few times at the fly ins down in Newnan. Last time I saw you you had the Giles here. Just happened to recognize your name and looked at the chat........... FWIW ....... I am not fond of powder coating fuselages for most reasons others have expressed. .......... blast, prime and paint where necessary. PC is usually too thick and doesn't get into inside corners well.......... but it is pretty. As for oiling the longerons, I wouldn't consider not oiling them, 2 or 3 ounces of tubeseal will show you ANY pinhole in a newly blasted fuselage and you can address it. If you don't address it, the longeron will "breathe" with pressure and temp changes and trap moisture inside the tube. Time will do the rest. I recently cut open a longeron on a damaged 1929 Stinson and the longeron was absolutely perfect internally.......... it was sealed and oiled. Pinholes in the fuselage will show up when heated in the PC oven, bad time. Next time you are near Newnan stop by the shop, over on Tailwheel Alley next to Tom's hangar where all the food was! Lots of Cub/Piper stuff here. There is suppose to be another fly in here this year. Hard to plan anything with this friggin flight school here now.

Wayne