Frankenstein Metal Cub

[glassywoder]

Good day folks, new member here hoping to borrow some of your expertise on a truly puzzling airplane. I currently have first dibs on a very unique experimental aircraft which closely resembles, or at one time might have been a cub. Here is what the owner knows:

- Purchased from Dale Parnell's estate, the builder, and supposedly a prolific homebuilder and experimental aircraft guy after he passed from Cancer (family knows nothing). Aircraft was assembled and needed inspection from Canada's MOT
- New owner (current) had it inspected (early 2000s) and flew the gross weight test (2200lbs) with no issues, and received airworthiness documentation
- Appears to be a 'cub' fuselage of some sort (PA-18 or PA-12, maybe PA-11?) with sheet metal riveted on
- Entire bottom of the fuselage has PK screws holding the sheet metal on for removal and inspection at annual
- Owner says he was told the wing is "Zenair inspired", has squared tips with no bows
- Comes with what looks like standard cub gear with bungees, hydraulic brakes and looks like Cessna pedals
- Cabin doors off a Cessna 150
- Engine (IO-346) off a Beechcraft Musketeer, 165hp (2/3rds of a IO-520, supposedly developed into it)
- Looks to me like a custom cowling and Stinson diffusers at the front
-Electric flaps with window motors out of a car as actuators, work pretty good
-No rear controls
-Throttle controls on the left AND right in the front seat, handle can be swapped
-Apparently fantastic performance but we are currently waiting for all the ice to go out so we can fly it. Flies regularly.

Now most people I've spoken to have told me to run far away from this airplane, mainly due to the unknown hodgepodge of parts, and the orphaned engine on the front. While they may be right, I see an opportunity for good performance at a decent price. I am hoping the Supercub.org brain trust can help me deduce the parts which make the whole so I can figure out just how much longevity is in this airplane, and if repairs will be economical/easy when something breaks. I've attached photos for review, and can take more as I coincidentally moved to the town where this airplane is located for a new flying job. Thanks in advance!

 

[Fishsticks]

Looks cool! How heavy is it?

A key detail is missing. Is this thing 10k? Hell yeah! Buy it and fly it. 50k? Mehhh.

Being first in line on a super weird experimental may not be that great if the owner thinks it's made of gold and the rest of us think its made out of something else.... Might be better off letting the owner list it and let the market define how much its worth.

 

[glassywoder]

Looks cool! How heavy is it?

A key detail is missing. Is this thing 10k? Hell yeah! Buy it and fly it. 50k? Mehhh.

Being first in line on a super weird experimental may not be that great if the owner thinks it's made of gold and the rest of us think its made out of something else.... Might be better off letting the owner list it and let the market define how much its worth.

If I remember correctly it was around 1100lbs on the Edo 2000 floats, which to me sounds pretty light for a metalized cub-ish airplane.

Yeah agreed, this is totally a value question. It was up for sale all of last year and didn't move, so I think I can get it for a decent price. The owner is a nice guy and I am planning an offer that would account for it basically needing an IO-360 thrown on the front within the first few years. But that begs the question, will a regular PA-18 motor mount bolt right on, or did the original builder come up with a one-off design. Nothing world-ending there but anything that requires fabrication will mean more money and downtime which I'd like to avoid. I flew 20 hours and drove 11 hours to go see the airplane on my days off, but now that I am based in his town, I am welcome to pop in and poke and prod the thing until I can figure out just what it is. I think he's a bit curious to know too.

 

[DENNY]

Full metal belly was a option on PA 18s and squared off wings are common with different ways to do them. Toe brakes came with some trainers also. The Cessna doors and firewall forward seem to be the big changes from a standard 18. Hard to tell how wide it is if you could measure the cabin width at the rear of the doors and dash that would help identify it. A picture of the extended baggage with that back seat removed also. Over the years several different cub like fuselages could be found so hard to say if this is a factory one or knock off. I have a ideal it might have been a wreck that was rebuilt with handy parts, nothing wrong with that If everything works well, add in the price of firewall forward metal it it should be an easy swap another motor.
DENNY

 

[glassywoder]

Full metal belly was a option on PA 18s and squared off wings are common with different ways to do them. Toe brakes came with some trainers also. The Cessna doors and firewall forward seem to be the big changes from a standard 18. Hard to tell how wide it is if you could measure the cabin width at the rear of the doors and dash that would help identify it. A picture of the extended baggage with that back seat removed also. Over the years several different cub like fuselages could be found so hard to say if this is a factory one or knock off. I have a ideal it might have been a wreck that was rebuilt with handy parts, nothing wrong with that If everything works well, add in the price of firewall forward metal it it should be an easy swap another motor.
DENNY

Thanks for the info Denny. I'll measure the width of the cabin next time I'm there, and see if I can remove some of the belly panels and inspect the tubing for some clues. I haven't heard of any fully
metalized PA-18s or long wing pipers, but I have seen photos of metalized Pacers. I keep seeing the phrase 'top deck' on this forum, and I wonder what the best way would be to figure out what style this cub has. Being able to bolt on standard PA-18 wings would be a huge plus for repairability

 

[skywagon8a]

Back in the 50s and 60s there was a company named Met-Co-Aire which covered wings and fuselages of different airplanes with sheet aluminum. Stinson 108s, Cessna 170 and 140, Pa-22 and as I recall also PA-12s. This could be one of those -12 fuselages. I flew one of the -22s, it rattled like a tin can, probably because the skins weren't stressed.

 

[DENNY]

I think the wings you have are PA 18 wings. So if you carry over you flap controls another set should work fine. While you have the tape measure out see what size flaps and ailerons. The Ailerons are pushed out to the end of the wing which is a excellent mod.
DENNY

 

[skywagon8a]

At the left side of this drawing are the dimensions for the engine mount attachment location on a PA-18. You can use these to compare to see if you could just bolt on a -18 mount.

https://www.supercubproject.com/drawings/pdfs/A3250005.pdf

 

[glassywoder]

I think the wings you have are PA 18 wings. So if you carry over you flap controls another set should work fine. While you have the tape measure out see what size flaps and ailerons. The Ailerons are pushed out to the end of the wing which is a excellent mod.
DENNY

Sounds good, thanks for the insight! I'll be over there in the next few days to size everything up and report back with more photos. The IO-346 is a unique beast that I've been searching for info for over on the BeechAeroClub forum. I guess they were only built for a couple of years to be put in Beech Musketeers and Sierras. Another rabbit hole to explore.

 

[glassywoder]

At the left side of this drawing are the dimensions for the engine mount attachment location on a PA-18. You can use these to compare to see if you could just bolt on a -18 mount.
View attachment 111331

https://www.supercubproject.com/drawings/pdfs/A3250005.pdf

Thanks for the link! The site looks like a great resource. Quite the community here.

 

[aktango58]

One Musketeer around here had that engine, which eventually went bad. As I recall the overhaul price was such it would have been cheaper to buy a different engine, but no STC to allow it. You can put another (different) engine when needed.

While the aluminum does not bother me, it does raise questions- if done well it is durable, but how is it screwed on? tabs welded I hope, but are the welds good, or did they make weak spots on the tubes?

The engine is a big minus for me. The 'hodgepodge' of parts is what experimental is all about. The Stinson line has some of the best flying planes out there, Cessna built many planes so parts can be found, and we know Pipers are great birds. It has been flying, so you know it works!

I would be looking more at the quality of work putting it together, and being sure that attach points of the wings and tail were not drilled out or otherwise made unsafe in the build. Then I would discount for the future engine parts costs. If you can come to an agreement- buy gas and fly the big smile at having a unique aircraft.

I will remind you that Lindbergh flew a 'one off' plane across the Atlantic, and the Wrights did not have certified parts to build their plane.

 

[labrador_cub]

wow I finally know something about this plane now! Ive seen it for sale for what seems like forever and me and my buddy who's plane shopping have talked about it a few times wondering what the story was and the specs, now we know! it looks PA12 ish to me, but all the tell tale clues on this bird are missing or changed so its hard to tell from pictures and no measurements.

 

[glassywoder]

One Musketeer around here had that engine, which eventually went bad. As I recall the overhaul price was such it would have been cheaper to buy a different engine, but no STC to allow it. You can put another (different) engine when needed.

While the aluminum does not bother me, it does raise questions- if done well it is durable, but how is it screwed on? tabs welded I hope, but are the welds good, or did they make weak spots on the tubes?

The engine is a big minus for me. The 'hodgepodge' of parts is what experimental is all about. The Stinson line has some of the best flying planes out there, Cessna built many planes so parts can be found, and we know Pipers are great birds. It has been flying, so you know it works!

I would be looking more at the quality of work putting it together, and being sure that attach points of the wings and tail were not drilled out or otherwise made unsafe in the build. Then I would discount for the future engine parts costs. If you can come to an agreement- buy gas and fly the big smile at having a unique aircraft.

I will remind you that Lindbergh flew a 'one off' plane across the Atlantic, and the Wrights did not have certified parts to build their plane.

All great points, thanks for the info! I'll dig into the structure soon to see if it's on standoffs like the Met-co-aire jobs or if something sketchier is going on. The bottom belly pan seemed to be the only thing held on by PKs when I visited the first time, the rest of the aluminum was secured with pop rivets (to my eye).

Here's a video of it taking off. Hopefully it attaches correctly.

 

[Olibuilt]

Here's a video of it taking off. Hopefully it attaches correctly.

Can't see the video.

 

[glassywoder]

Can't see the video.

Reuploaded, should work now