Flying the Super 18

[Warren Aircraft]

Flying the Super 18

I had the pleasure of flying the Super 18 last week. Mark, Cody and the whole Dakota gang could not have been more hospitable.

Mark insisted I take multiple flights in the Super 18 and feel all the different characteristics of the slotted wing.

I have to admit I was skeptical about the gain in slow flight handling and performance over a well rigged VG Cub. I have spent time on the phone and in person talking with Gunny, Mike Butterfield, Lee Budde, and Mark Erickson talking about the Super 18 and the slotted wing. Even though I respect each and every one of them, I still had a hard time believing their claims of the gain in slow flight performance of the Super 18 and the slotted wing.

I took a trip to South Dakota and Mark let me have the Super 18 for the better part of the day.

Everything they described is true and then some. WOW!!!

High angle of attack (approx 35 degrees) and steep bank (approx 60 degrees) turn with airspeed reading 0 (of course due to the angle of attack) not sure of ground speed, RPM 1700 and the wing is solid ( some tail buffet). You can hold that until your arms get tired or you get dizzy. You can roll the aircraft right back into a steep turn in the opposite direction and the wing and ailerons are solid and responsive. The ailerons are incredibly smooth and light.
If you ad power holding a steep turn with a slight cross control the aircraft will climb.

I pulled the aircraft 45 + degrees nose high and 60 + degrees bank turn, held a cross control and chopped the power. I noticed a little tail buffet, the nose slid down to just above the horizon, as the Super 18 smoothly transitioned into a slip. The wing and ailerons still felt solid and responsive throughout variations of high angle, bank, climb, and cross control maneuvers, even in simulated engine failures at these attitudes. Any slight relaxation or unloading of the controls results in the aircraft flying out of unusual attitudes even with full cross control.

A normal entry into a power on stall is a non event. You pull on the aircraft and you get tail buffet the airplane nose decreases towards the horizon the aircraft stops climbing and you can hold approximately 35 degrees nose high until your arm gets tired.

Normal entries into a power off stall are virtually the same as the power on stall. Once again any relaxing of the controls and the aircraft flies out. The wing and ailerons stay solid and responsive.

In every unusual attitude I put the Super 18 into, the wing and aileron felt extremely solid and responsive. The Super 18 has no adverse or unsafe characteristics that I could find.

I hope I will get to try some short field work with it soon. I spent most of the time experimenting with the flight characteristics.

Mark's master brake cylinder / boosters are smooth, and they are easier to meter the brake application.

The wide body is comfortable as has been discussed before.

This aircraft is extremely user friendly and safe.

Is the slotted wing worth the money? With out a doubt if it is within your budget or close to it (what is safety worth?).

If you are not in a big hurry to rebuild or buy a Super Cub. The Super 18 will definitely be worth the wait.


Scot Warren

 

[freestone]

What is the Super 18?

 

[bob turner]

Yes. Can we have that performance with a 160 SuperCub and the Slotted wing? We may be ready for that!

 

[Warren Aircraft]

Freestone,

THe Super 18 is a joint venture between Dakota Cub, and Airframes Inc.
It is a slotted wing 180hp, wide body, new TC'd. It should be a 2300 lbs gross weight. They are shooting for 2400 lbs. Mark or Lee will have to clarify that for you. There could be a 160hp option in the works as well.

Scot

 

[sj]

Great report, Scot! I'm looking forward to my chance to get behind the stick on this bird.

sj

 

[sj]

Here is some more info and pictures of the Super18

http://www.supercub.org/CubDriver/pmwiki.php?pagename=Main.Super18

sj

 

[WWhunter]

Freestone,
I posted the specs on this plane ealier.
http://www.supercub.org/phpBB2/view...rt=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=super

Keith

 

[Warren Aircraft]

Super 18

Steve,

Even though you like the lighter cubs, I really thing you will be impressed with this one . Mark said you were going to be out there.

Scot

 

[freestone]

What is the weight of the plane? and all fuselage dimensions are same as a widebody supercub now?

When are they getting their type certificate?

Finally, why don't they put on, or allow, that new stroker engine, the 340, to get the lighter weight?

 

[kase]

I flew it last month also. Flys just as Scot says. That 0340 engine is experimental.

click to enlarge

 

[canadianjc]

any numbers available regarding stall, cruise speeds etc.....????

 

[Dave Calkins]

Would anyone with Super18 experience like to comment on how it performs takeoff-wise and landing-wise, compared to a VG'ed -18 of the same horsepower and weight?

I'm wondering if the slot shortens the ground roll for takeoff or landing.

PS, Does the CG envelope change with the slat?

PS, what length gear and what tires are on it now?

 

[alaskadrifter]

I think it has 26" tires standard.

 

[kase]

Had 3 in gear with 26" Bushwheels when I flew it and a 84" prop. There was no other 180 hp vg equipped PA18s there to compare it to.

 

[ground loop]

Dave,
The same weight comparison ain't gonna be easy to find.
But although heavier, I have found that with the same firewall foreward, with the exception of trading out a lightweight 20 amp alt for the 60 amp (you can assume that this didn't help the Super-18) , the Super 18 set up is is pretty much superior in every regard. I did turns last week with the GPS indicating 30 mph and the ASI at about 26mph. I couldn't come close to that with the straight wing with VG's. Take off distance and airspeed is similiar, but that is the only place.
Rate off climb, angle of climb, landing distance, responsiveness heavy, turbulence stability have a large difference in favor of the Super.
I am not the worlds best pilot, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Crash]

FYI

http://www.ykmaerosport.com/

Crash

 

[Warren Aircraft]

canadianjc wrote:

any numbers available regarding stall, cruise speeds etc.....????

Kase and Gunny can correct me if I am wrong.

All the attitudes I put the Super 18 into the wing its self did not stall and I was reading well below 0 IAS.

The elevator buffets and the nose decreases towards the horizon and the wings & ailerons stay solid even in a cross control.

A normal trim into and hold the stick back to a stall does not seem to stall the wing, once again even in steep turn and cross control attitudes. Every attitude I had the airplane in was well below 0 IAS due to the angle of attack. Short of zoom climb to near vertical and chopping the power (whip stall) which I did not do. The wing stays solid. This may change with the square elevator and rudder. Let's ask Gunny.

The couple ways I can figure out to see where this wing will truly stall is a wind tunnel to see where the critical AOA is, and speed (not very practical). Or as Mark suggested put a flyable pitot on the Super 18.

Scot

 

[Steve Pierce]

Does the Super 18 have stock Super Cub tail feathers or are they using the larger ones like Gunny has on his?

 

[Warren Aircraft]

Super 18

Right now standard tail as far as I know.

Scot

 

[Steve Pierce]

Scot, You and Mark need to build a slotted wing SC now. :lol:

 

[StewartB]

Here's a serious question. If slots don't improve your landing and take-off distances, what's the point? How important is it to you guys to be able to make turns at ridiculously slow speeds? I want to take off as quickly as possible, fly as fast as I can, and then land as short as possible. It never occurred to me to fly enroute doing steep turns at 39mph. What am I missing?

SB

 

[cubflier]

It never occurred to me to fly enroute doing steep turns at 39mph. What am I missing?

SB

I would think a slow turning characteristic would be a good thing.

Where this attribute would come in handy is a follows:

There are approaches I do, to places that I love to go, where the whole pattern is very slow, descending over steep terrain. The last turn can a steep turn (relative to the speed I'm flying) to final to a short strip. A slow speed turn is not an option. A slow pattern/slow approach/slow speed turn = short landing for me.

This may be different for other folks.

Whether slots will do that for me...I'm not sure. I haven't been there nor have I done that.


Jerry

 

[Crash]

The day you bring a 1300 lb, $185K, Super 18 to Valdez and beat a 40 year old stock Super Cub I might think about buying one. I am with Stewart, no shorter take off / landings or more speed, where's the beef? Crash

 

[StewartB]

Jerry,

Perhaps that's true. My (mostly) stock 12 wings have yet to be pushed to their limits by the idiot at the controls. I still get 'er down just fine in the places I go. But I'm just a (stupid) Cessna pilot at heart. A happy (stupid) Cessna pilot. To me, Piper is a second language. Ahhhh, ignorance really is bliss.

I'm not limited by my equipment. My equipment is limited by me.

SB

P.S. (Another serious question) How many s--t hot sheep guides are using slatted wings?

 

[cubflier]

Don't confuse anything I said with thinking I view the Super 18 as the next greatest performer. I'm sure it's just the next Supercub wantabe and till it proves itself that's all it will ever be, in my mind.

I was just entertaining what's been written in this post with regards to it's slow flying speeds. I think slow approach speeds are a good thing and if my supercub could fly slower on approach I could land shorter.
This never seems work with these other imitation cubs.

Go figure.

With regards to Valdez, I like to see a good 180 hp cub do it's thing.

Any interest out there


Jerry

 

[StewartB]

I wasn't being contentious. I respected your answer. As for my part? I was being honest.

I like watching good pilots. I'm not that particular about what they're flying. Valdez? I have better things to do with a spring weekend.That competition should be moved to Goose Bay, and held on a windy day.

SB

 

[kase]

Tail feathers are stock size but had to be reinforced because they failed the stress test for the gross weight increase. I had no trouble landing 3 point even solo. However I always land with some power and some nose up trim, just like I do with my 160 cub. On the super 18 you may have to trim the nose up more than your used to because Mark makes his own jack screw and yoke that has a finer thread.

It seemed to take off and land pretty short to me considering the weight and temp when I was flying it.

 

[T-28]

I'm thinking of a post with pictures of the panel from a member, seems like in Idaho or Montana who was flying at 1500agl at 65kts when he hit a vortex or air eddy or sheer... and suddenly the panel showed IAS of 30kts or so (don't remember exact figures). The point is that he had airspeed, then all of a sudden he didn't, and he lost a lot of altitude very quickly.
Would, then, the slotted wing be good insurance (for your best buddy, your cub) when making your flat and slow approaches to those places that your cub can take you to..... ie, no stall landings from 20 ft agl (ouch) and no out-of-control bounders on a narrow strip at 35kts (000000HHHH).
I want to hedge my bet as much as i can.
How do the slots compare to VG's on the same wing ?? (bang for the buck)

 

[Christina Young]

The day you bring a 1300 lb, $185K, Super 18 to Valdez and beat a 40 year old stock Super Cub I might think about buying one. I am with Stewart, no shorter take off / landings or more speed, where's the beef? Crash

Crash, there you go again... always concerned about results. Do you really have to inject price for performance into the argument?

Actually, I have no scientific data or proof, but the shortest taking off cub I have ever seen (consistently, time and time again) has the "old style" slotted wings - it's U-7's... he lurks on this site and sometimes posts pictures. His cub is very light though too...

 

[Steve Pierce]

Thanks Allan. I wondered because several said they didn't think Gunny's had enough tail and he really liked it after installing the square Sullivan tail. Hopefully I will get to fly it sometime. Saw Mark's jackscrew at New Holstein. What a piece of art. I think it will solve some problems with the old jackscrew and make the trim system a lot smoother.