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Float questions................

cubdrvr

SPONSOR
YKN(mother city of the dakotas)
With a total of 8 hours and 8 years after getting my float rating I bought ( invested is the term I use with my wife) a set of straight EDO 2000's. I have some questions now that I have them home.
1. Where can I find the W&B numbers?
2. What is the proper way to leak test them while off the aircraft?
3. If there are leaks, what is the best sealant to use?
4. Are there rigging instructions available? Wire and cable tensions? Routing of rudder cables to cockpit?

I did get a spare parts list from Kenmore Air and that is all I have at present. Any help appreciated. Now I just need to find some water in SD....... :o
 
W and B should be obtained from the actual aircraft. Although we would like to think they are all created equally, but they are not.

Proper leak testing is to have the airplane and/or floats out of the water. If its out of the water, simply fill them with water and look for leaks. If there are leaks the best stuff to use is Pro Seal. It is a two part mix that works like a champ. It is a good idea to put a heat lamp in the compartment to not only dry it out real well but to also promote good bonding.

As far as rigging, I am not exactly sure how it works for EDO 2000's.

-Chris
 
leaks

If you are checking them out of the water , fill them then wait a few days and refill them,then check for leaks.Some of the sealers dry out and then expand after being in water for a few days.Also temperature of water (spring or fall over summer) will change seeping amounts.I have tried lake and air the last time and seemed to work good.
 
DO NOT!!!!, I repeat, DO NOT, fill your floats with water to check for leaks. They are not designed to hold that much weight internally, and you could easily damage a float compartment or worse. Not only that, it'll take all the water your well can pump to fill one of those things, AND then you got to pump them out afterwards.

To check for leaks, get the floats out of the water. If the floats have pump-outs, rig up an adapter to adapt your vacuum cleaner hose nozzle to the pump outs. You want to be able to stick the end of the vacuum hose into the float pump out.

Now attach the vacuum cleaner hose to the DISCHARGE side of the vacuum cleaner.

Fill a squirt bottle with soapy water. Turn on the vacuum cleaner, which will put no more than about 3 or 4 pounds pressure in the float compartment. Now, go over each seam with the soapy water, looking for bubbles. Anywhere that bubbles, indicating that air is leaking, mark with a grease pen or magic marker.

When you're done with this process for both floats, connect the vacuum cleaner hose to the suction side of the vacuum. Get some gas tank sloshing compound, or other very "thin" sealant, and a small brush.

Attach the end of the vacuum hose into the pump out of any compartment that had leaks, and carefully paint the area of the leak with the sealant, allowing it to be drawn into the seam. Give it a minute to dry, then feed in a bit more. Most leaks won't take much to seal up.

Move on to the next leak and the next compartment till you're done.

If you have a section of a seam, such as a chine, that has a fairly large leak, you may want to re-buck the rivets in that section before sealing with seam sealer, or wait till after the seam sealer has set up, then buck the rivets.

I agree that some floats which have been out of the water for years may have a lot of leaks. They used zinc chromate tape to seal the seams on a lot of these floats, and the stuff dries out. Some of these leaks will seal up as the chromate tape swells.

Nevertheless, it won't hurt to use sloshing compound to seal up the seams in any case, and then you'll know you've got them sealed.

Again, DO NOT fill your floats with water.

The vacuum cleaner act is simple, inexpensive, and tells you exactly where the leaks are. If only one rivet is leaking, maybe all you have to do is re-buck that rivet.

MTV
 
I had one customer that would just throw some cement in the floats before he took them out of the water. Hope you didn't buy the floats from him. mvivion is correct but look in the cells and check what has been done. it may be time for a complete reseal instead of a repair. Check with a good float mechanic.
 
Park in shallow water for a few days, and go fly them. If they look good, they probably are good. I've never flown a set of floats that didn't make a little water, either from leaks or condensation. You're going to pump them anyway. A little leakage is no big deal. And even if they test tight, there's no guarantee that the plane won't sink. Floatplanes require attention.

If nobody else has sent any W&B info yet, PM me. I have a few friends that I can get data from if you need it. You may even try Atlee Dodge. His fittings specify EDO 2000 floats, so he's got the data somewhere.
SB
 
Stewart,

You are right that many floats leak a bit, but there's no reason to tolerate significant leaks.

The procedure I outlined is simple and takes only a few hours. It's well worth the effort before committing to installing the floats on the airplane, and then having to try to do the sealing with the airplane on the floats.

EDO should be able to provide weights for 2000's. Try contacting JJ Frey, via the Seaplane Pilot's Association, www.seaplanes.org, go to the forums section, and post a note. JJ is pretty good about responding.

Atlee also probably has data, as noted.

MTV
 
On my wiplines and I will quote Wipaire...... To properly check for leaks at the the seams, fill each compartment with water and observe. When I say fill, I do not mean fill them to the top, but rather a few inches. And from my own personal observation, this puts no more stress on them than what occurs after a couple of days of rain.

I like the vacuum idea but when you 200 miles from anything, that is the only way I know how to locate and fix a leak.

-Chris
 
Thanks a bunch guys.........great idea with the vacuum mike, no mess or pumping a lot of water.
Are there any specific rigging instructions?
 
Cubdrvr:

The struts will dictate the angle of incidence of the floats on the plane, as long as your rear float fittings are located correctly.

Then, it's a matter of tramming the plane to level and straight with the diagonal brace wires.

Take measurements from some specific rivet head far forward on the right float to a point on the left wing tiedown ring. Compare that with a similar measurement from the same rivet head on the left float to the same point on the right wing tiedown. Do the same to some point on the rear of the floats.

You try to get these right/left measurements to be identical by adjusting the diagonal brace wires. I like to see the right/left measurements within a 1/4 inch. 1/8th is better.

Then, it's a matter of setting up the water rudder steering and retract cables. If your floats are already rigged, just position stuff on the airframe to make it work, or you can re-rig to suit yourself. It's pretty intuitive, and you really don't need drawings, frankly.

AmphibXP:

Webster's defines "fill" as: "To put as much as possible into a container or space" "To take up the whole of; to occupy."

Nowhere in there does it say "put a little bit in there".

Gotta be careful when you say "fill" with an internet crowd.

Anyway, if you're so far from the rest of the world that you can't find a vacuum cleaner and electricity, any leaks you may have should be really obvious, cause they were caused by hitting something.

What he's talking about are things like seam leaks and more subtle leaks. Frankly, you could "fill" the floats with water for a month, and it would be hard to find some of those with that technique.

As I said, I don't like pumping floats any more than necessary.

MTV
 
I was not counting on a quote from webster, but I am sorry to anyone who took the word fill to mean literally fill the float compartment. I am just reverberating what the people who built my floats said.

So to the internet crowd, if you are a not comfortable putting water in your floats, follow Mike's procedure. If you are like me and spend time in the middle of nowhere for months, you may want try my suggestion.

And I disagree with hitting something as the cause of a leak. I have seen on numerous occasions where just subtle rocking on the beach is enough to loosen seams at the keel strips.

Just my $0.02 for what it is worth.
 
T.J. Hinkle said:
Also check the tram of the horizontal "X" brace wires. I think I have some info on Edos here somewhere. I'll see if I can find it.

Nice to see your still kicking TJ. Thought you went and fell off the edge of the earth. (it is up there in your area isn't it)
 
I use the vacume/soap method and it works great! I seal the leaks with a heigh grade sillecone sealer (clear). I would be very carfull about putting any vacume (neg. presure) on the chambers to draw in a sealer. you could tin/can the sides and top (crushed beer can syndrome)
 
AmphibXP,

You obviously are on amphibious floats. So, when you are out in the middle of nowhere, how do you test the floats for leaks? Land them on a gravel bar and fill them with water?

Cubdrvr is talking about straight floats, which means that he has to get them OUT of the water with a trailer, or whatever to locate leaks. If you are that close to civilization, it's pretty likely you can get them to a vacuum cleaner.

Wipline does not rivet their keels, they're bonded. EDOs are riveted. If you're getting leaks sitting on a beach, you must be in pretty rough water, but it certainly can happen.

I wouldn't argue with Wip's procedure, but in any case, to repair leaks, it HELPS if the floats are dry. That's pretty hard to do with water inside the floats. There are sealers that work when the floats are wet, but the beauty of using gas tank sloshing compound is that, with a vacuum pulled on the float compartment, and painting the sealer on the outside, the vacuum actually pulls the sealer into the seam. The sealer then sets up, and the seam is really sealed.

If you apply a sealer on the inside or the outside, all it does is cover the leak, it doesn't fix it. Sooner or later, that sealer "covering" may come off, and you have a leak again.

Use the sloshing compound, with a vacuum, and they won't leak again, at least not there. If it's a big leak on a seam, you may have to re-buck the rivet line first, then seam seal it.

Finally, if you are generating leaks that you have to deal with on a day to day basis, you are really using those floats pretty hard. Please don't take offense at that, I'm just saying that's not what most folks experience, including a lot of commercial operators, myself included.

I've got well over 2000 hours of operational use on a set of Baumann floats, and they've never leaked, and never been touched. There are a lot of river operations in there, as well. I also have over 3000 hours on a set of Wip 4000 floats on a 206, and they've never been touched.

I just don't see people having to re-seal floats very often in operational use.

When a set of floats has been sitting a long time, or they've been damaged, it's always best to go over them BEFORE putting them on the airplane, so that they are easier to repair.

That's the scenario that Cubdrvr is talking about here, not out in the middle of the wilderness.

And, hey, Milwaukee now makes a vacuum cleaner that operates on one of their 18 volt batteries, like the battery operated screwguns use.

Maybe that's my excuse to buy one of those puppies.........

MTV
 
I have used the technique Mike describes (well written description) for a number of years. It works quite well. I use dow 5200 that I cut using the base solvent (tolulene or xylol I believe). Mixed very thin in a small cup and applied with an acid brush or similar. I would like to try the tank sealer someday. Always something better out there.

Mark
 
The Wip floats are great little floats. I sure didn't mean to demean them. They make a good product.

MTV
 
The keels on my floats are flush riveted to the skins and no I have not had many problems with them except for many gear updates.

At our camp, we have a ramp that we use to pull the planes out of the river to prevent damage from ice flows (spring) and debris the rest of the year. Believe me, I am not looking for a pissing match here because I am sure you have a ton more experience. I was simply conveying what has worked for me and others in the past.

It is funny you mentioned the cordless vacuum. My girlfriend bought me a DeWalt for Christmas. It works like a champ and the next time I will try your technique. Now I just have a sacrafice a case of beer for the vacuum in order to stay at gross.

-Chris
 
Chris,

NEVER sacrifice the beer!! The earlier Wips had bonded keels. The 4000's I operate have them. I've never had a problem with them. I suspect the reason Wip went back to rivets may be more due to production issues, as opposed to durability issues.

In any case, they're great floats.

One of the beauties of amphibious floats is that you CAN get them out of the water fairly easily, and in fact, as you've described, store them out of the water when not in use via a ramp.

MTV.
 
Nope, gotta have the beer for fishing. The downfall, it cuts into the flying time.

Amphibs are nice in the fact that you can go to the airports for fuel and it is nice to be able to push her back into the hangar when at home. On the down side, my 2350s are nowhere as rugged as the PK 2300Bs and in the fall you did not have to worry about the gear freezing in the up position. Alhough it is easily fixed by dropping into the water, cycling them a few times and then dropping the gear once you are out of the water it can be bothersome.

The bonded keels are nice because in oeder to fix as keel strip (on wips) you can beat the waer strip out and replace it. On my 2350s, you have to drill rivets and do the old drive and buck thing. Gets messy when you throw pro seal into the mix.....

I am going to try your vacuum meathod on a pair of 2790s. I will let you know how it works out!
 
Speaking of vacuum cleaners-- Have a friend who got some gravel in his fuel tank one time. Not sure how. Somebody probably dropped the nozzle in the gravel then picked it up and pumped fuel in the tank. Every time he'd drain the tank, he'd get a little gravel in the drain and it would stick open til he removed the drainand cleaned it out. We tried to figure out the best way to get the gravel out short of pulling the tank. Decided he should drain the fuel, and then get a long extension on a good vacuum cleaner and suck it out. One day while I was gone (lucky for me) he starts this project. Brings up his Expensive commercial vacuum and starts vacuuming the rocks out. Said it was working real good til he heard what sounded like a jet engine behind him. Looks over at the vacuum and that is exactly what he had, a huge flame coming out the exhaust of the vac. that would have been alright if he'd just pulled the hose out of the tank and left it alone for a few minutes, but instead, he jumps off the ladder (with the hose still in the tank) and shuts the vacuum off. Kaboom she blows up. luckily he wasn't hurt. Bout died laughing when he got to telling it, but we know now never to vacuum out a fuel tank.
 
Floats

A couple of points.

Your floats should have 3 to 5 degrees of incidence between the botton of the closest rib to the fuselage and the top of the float. My Baumanns on the PA-14 would always drag the heels with a heavy load and you had to work it to get off the water. It only had 2 degrees with the original rear struts. I called Baumann and for $140.00 they sold me a new set of rear strut blanks. This year we shortened them (new strut blanks) 7/8" over the stock ones to acheive 4 degrees of incidence and man what a difference. At 45 MPH just pull the stick back lightly and it lifts straight off the water. Ya, I know, the one float lift off is a cool way to go but I still like rolling it off if I have plenty of lake.

My Baumanns came with the tapered rubber "corks" with the little rope hoop in the top (Lake and Air i.e. Wipline). The floats would take on water just setting in my yard. I had to pump all 16 compartments every time I flew it and always got a lot of water. This year I switched to the soft rubber ball kind of "cork" without the pull cord loops in them. I the last two months when I pump my floats I get nothing but mostly air out of the pump. They are staying completely dry, good floats, crappy corks (before). I pull the balls by putting the pump on the ball and sucking it out of the cup with the first up stroke, then on the down stroke the ball drops out where I catch it between my feet, pump the compartment then roll the ball back into the cup with my toe and push it firmly in place with the pump (usually very little bending over).

Take care. Crash
 
drvr.

Also, try to resist the temptation to stretch a 1/8 SS cable between the floats. This old (unapproved) mod to get over to the left float is frowned upon by the fed.

Nick
 
Aviator,

Walk wires may be frowned upon by the fed in Canada, eh, but there are a lot of them around the US. On an installation with only one door, you don't have much choice, it's pretty much a requirement, particularly for docking. There's not always going to be a handy dock hand there to assist.

Crash, are you sure that the dryer floats you are seeing this summer aren't related to the dry conditions in Alaska this year, as opposed to the pump out plugs you're using?

I have Lake and Air pump out plugs in three sets of floats that I run regularly, and I haven't got a drop of water out of any of those three sets of floats all summer. The reason, of course, is that it hasnt' rained all summer here, which is unusual. I've had really good experience with the Lake and Air pump out plugs, as compared to the fingernail destroying balls of old.

In Kodiak, many years ago, we were parking airplanes on the City Dock float, due to freezing temps on the lake. Seems like every morning, the little float plug balls would be gone. We were thinking the herring spotters were cruising for parts again, till one morning I went down there early in the morning, and watched a raven, happily plucking the little rubber balls out of the pump outs, and flinging them into the boat channel, where they merrily floated away on the tide. He or she systematically went all the way down one float, then moved to the other, before I was able to intervene, then simply moved to another plane.

Ravens have big fun.

MTV
 
I have the lake and air plugs, and I ran a little thin line through all of the loops and tied them on the cleats at either end. Never loose the plugs that way. A buddy of mine with a Husky tipped me off on this one.

sj
 
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