frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWAKpdAY0VY&t=79s&ab_channel=DJames
Any comments from experienced float pilots?
Any comments from experienced float pilots?
Failed takeoff video
- Thread starter frequent_flyer
- Start date
sj
Staff member
Northwest Arkansas
Looks like a stall spin... not from the floats, from trying to fly before it was ready.
sj
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
Yep, tried to yard it out of the water to reduce the pounding from wave action. Had the nose way high from the git go, which just extended the pounding.
If you’ve ever operated a seaplane in rough water, you know how ugly that feels, but you’ve got to get the thing clean as possible on the step, then fly it off. Hard to do, but…
That’s pretty rough water for a light airplane.
MTV
If you’ve ever operated a seaplane in rough water, you know how ugly that feels, but you’ve got to get the thing clean as possible on the step, then fly it off. Hard to do, but…
That’s pretty rough water for a light airplane.
MTV
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
In addition to what Mike says.
Look at the waves, they are generated by boat traffic. The worst kind, since they are going in many different directions at the same time. Had they been wind generated waves they would have all come from the same direction.
The waves tops appear to be fairly smooth, indicating very little wind.
When the waves come from many directions at a time, it is impossible to have any stability with the seaplane's floats going from wave to wave. That's why you see the plane rocking during the entire run.
Notice the rear half of the floats. The chine is parallel to the water surface, meaning the angle between the forward keel and the water surface is too high producing a high drag angle. The plane will not accelerate due to a combination of this angle and being pounded from different angles by the waves. The pilot is trying too hard to pull the nose up instead of holding it down in order to accelerate.
The airplane's flaps are up. Meaning it needs a higher airspeed to lift off. The pounding of the waves could have created too much drag for the plane to accelerate. If the nose was lower, the floats would have sliced through the waves rather than being thrown from each one. Each wave throw dragged down the speed which was gained between the waves. Thus a terminal velocity for the conditions.
The pilot was anxious to get airborne and away from the pounding of the waves. So as Mike puts it, he yarded it out of the water. Besides the yarding out, the waves bounced it into the air. As soon as the floats left the water, there was no more rolling support between the waves and the two floats. So ... since there wasn't quite enough airspeed, the rudder wasn't as effective as it would have been had it been a normal take off. I can't see the ailerons though I suspect the left one is down, thus stalling the left wing.
In boat generated waves such as these a single boat hull is easier to manage than a conventional two floats.
What type of plane is this?
Look at the waves, they are generated by boat traffic. The worst kind, since they are going in many different directions at the same time. Had they been wind generated waves they would have all come from the same direction.
The waves tops appear to be fairly smooth, indicating very little wind.
When the waves come from many directions at a time, it is impossible to have any stability with the seaplane's floats going from wave to wave. That's why you see the plane rocking during the entire run.
Notice the rear half of the floats. The chine is parallel to the water surface, meaning the angle between the forward keel and the water surface is too high producing a high drag angle. The plane will not accelerate due to a combination of this angle and being pounded from different angles by the waves. The pilot is trying too hard to pull the nose up instead of holding it down in order to accelerate.
The airplane's flaps are up. Meaning it needs a higher airspeed to lift off. The pounding of the waves could have created too much drag for the plane to accelerate. If the nose was lower, the floats would have sliced through the waves rather than being thrown from each one. Each wave throw dragged down the speed which was gained between the waves. Thus a terminal velocity for the conditions.
The pilot was anxious to get airborne and away from the pounding of the waves. So as Mike puts it, he yarded it out of the water. Besides the yarding out, the waves bounced it into the air. As soon as the floats left the water, there was no more rolling support between the waves and the two floats. So ... since there wasn't quite enough airspeed, the rudder wasn't as effective as it would have been had it been a normal take off. I can't see the ailerons though I suspect the left one is down, thus stalling the left wing.
In boat generated waves such as these a single boat hull is easier to manage than a conventional two floats.
What type of plane is this?
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
Good catch on the flaps.....I never even looked at them.....I just assume that everyone uses flaps for takeoff on water.
One of my favorites during training in a C-185 was to try to distract the person flying during the taxi back for takeoff, in an attempt to get them to forget the flaps.....then wait for them to figure out why this "takeoff run" isn't. It's amazing how effective those flaps are when conditions are a little challenging.
MTV
One of my favorites during training in a C-185 was to try to distract the person flying during the taxi back for takeoff, in an attempt to get them to forget the flaps.....then wait for them to figure out why this "takeoff run" isn't. It's amazing how effective those flaps are when conditions are a little challenging.
MTV
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
farm_boy252
MEMBER
Norman wells, NT
On about the 15th leg of the day onetime in the 206 on floats I forgot to use flaps for take off....got on step the same but then it was an instant ominous feeling, I could tell something was not right and chewed up a lot of distance before taking off even though I was empty. I realized the flaps were not down while on step and kept things going. After the incident I though I should have just chopped the power and tired again properly.
Troy Hamon
Registered User
King Salmon, AK
That hurt to watch. Did the occupants make it? Couldn't tell from the video if any of the heads popping up were coming out or if they were people trying to help.
A lot going on in that video, but well discussed above by others. I will just add my quick summary...when I see something like this it usually makes me think of the incredibly low barrier to entry for float operations. If you have hundreds of hours of flying time you might be a fine pilot, but if you don't have hundreds of hours of float time, you may be totally unprepared for seaplane flying and it would be worth investing regularly in some recurrent training. I tried to explain to AVEMCO why they should consider boating experience as an adjunct when insuring float pilots...it helps to have a feel for the water. But you can get your float rating with about 5 hours of total seaplane time, having only 'simulated' glassy water and rough water operations. It isn't enough for real world, doesn't give you the feeling for the situation that you need.
My two cents. Also possibly unrelated to the event...but those are things that went through my mind as I watched it.
A lot going on in that video, but well discussed above by others. I will just add my quick summary...when I see something like this it usually makes me think of the incredibly low barrier to entry for float operations. If you have hundreds of hours of flying time you might be a fine pilot, but if you don't have hundreds of hours of float time, you may be totally unprepared for seaplane flying and it would be worth investing regularly in some recurrent training. I tried to explain to AVEMCO why they should consider boating experience as an adjunct when insuring float pilots...it helps to have a feel for the water. But you can get your float rating with about 5 hours of total seaplane time, having only 'simulated' glassy water and rough water operations. It isn't enough for real world, doesn't give you the feeling for the situation that you need.
My two cents. Also possibly unrelated to the event...but those are things that went through my mind as I watched it.
Troy Hamon
Registered User
King Salmon, AK
I found news reports indicating the two occupants were relatively unscathed.
frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
There are reports that a float brace wire failed before the lift off and loss of control.
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
A float brace wire wasn't what that "caused" that accident. May have happened during the course of that process, but not what caused it. Once you're out of the water, those brace wires don't really do much. He could very well have broken one during the takeoff, but more likely broke it upon "arrival".
MTV
frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
I’ve flown a Super Cub home with a broken tie wire. Not a huge deal, really. He could easily have broken something in the float rigging with that pounding, none of which should have caused a loss of control. A reduction in power, and not reducing the AOA could presumably do that, but it looked like a stall and roll off. Still a loss of control, which is a pilot thing.
On Kodiak, a Turbo Beaver landed hard, bounced and flew away. He’d broken both spreader bars on the Wip amphib floats. Flew back to town and landed..Definitely got everyone’s attention when he landed and the floats spread out.
Only damage was to the floats.
ya gotta fly the plane.
MTV
On Kodiak, a Turbo Beaver landed hard, bounced and flew away. He’d broken both spreader bars on the Wip amphib floats. Flew back to town and landed..Definitely got everyone’s attention when he landed and the floats spread out.
Only damage was to the floats.
ya gotta fly the plane.
MTV
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skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
This report by the pilot is strictly to cover his rear end. There is no possibility the pilot was looking at his floats during that take off run. IF he thought the floats were moving, it was because he himself was being thrown around in the cockpit. He had his hands and brain full trying to get it in the air. That airplane was rocking so much from wave to wave that any witness reports of the floats moving differently from the airplane would have been an illusion. That impact on the water was in a sideways direction. A sure cross wire breaking situation. Also if he did reduce the power, that guaranteed a crash from that attitude even if there had been a possibility of flying out of a bad situation, which I doubt.
That's not to say that floats never move in relation to the airplane. They can and do by a small amount. Not so much a casual witness would notice. A Cessna 206 has a three point attachment setup. It moves normally in rough water.
aktango58
FRIEND
18AA
Sometimes the water tells you to NOT go out and have fun.
Pounding hard, or jumping from crest to crest sucks, and takes forever to get airborne. One of the worst parts is once you are there, you feel like it will come out on the next wave, then the next... before you know it you burned up more water than you can imagine and still are just under flying speed.
Nursing the flaps can help. To do that you need to have good control and be precise keeping the nose as low as you can but still stay in the air, and just skim above the water.
Sad deal in the video. One lesson is that big waves for a cub is not that much for a Beaver. Watch the Beavers go in and out, and the 206s, easy to think no problem! Same waves in the cub feel like a typhoon! they crash over the nose, fill the float compartments with water and your wingtips look like they are dipping into the water.
Troy is right, boat experience is king. Someone that has sailed competition boats with no power usually can get floats figured out in an afternoon. Folks that have never run a boat is another story.
Pounding hard, or jumping from crest to crest sucks, and takes forever to get airborne. One of the worst parts is once you are there, you feel like it will come out on the next wave, then the next... before you know it you burned up more water than you can imagine and still are just under flying speed.
Nursing the flaps can help. To do that you need to have good control and be precise keeping the nose as low as you can but still stay in the air, and just skim above the water.
Sad deal in the video. One lesson is that big waves for a cub is not that much for a Beaver. Watch the Beavers go in and out, and the 206s, easy to think no problem! Same waves in the cub feel like a typhoon! they crash over the nose, fill the float compartments with water and your wingtips look like they are dipping into the water.
Troy is right, boat experience is king. Someone that has sailed competition boats with no power usually can get floats figured out in an afternoon. Folks that have never run a boat is another story.
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
I've heard there are folks that fly floats can't swim
Gary
Gary
