EZ Flap on a C-18-/185
- Thread starter Tom3holer
- Start date
If you do you're going to have to learn to land with a paper bag over you're head...
mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
WindOnHisNose
BENEFACTOR
Lino Lakes MN (MY18)
I began a thread on this product way back in time...bottom line for me in the super cub was that it was not helpful.
http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?37781-EZ-flap-handle&highlight=Flap
Long thread, but the general consensus was thumbs down.
Randy
http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?37781-EZ-flap-handle&highlight=Flap
Long thread, but the general consensus was thumbs down.
Randy
WWhunter
Registered User
Near the Headwaters of the Mighty Mississippi Rive
I disagree with the negativity that lots of guys posted on the EZ-flap. Granted, everyone has different opinions on how well it works but I think it it awesome! I have stated this many times and will mention it again...two of the reasons I really like the EZ-Flap is that it works great for those of us that are 'vertically challenged' or have some mobility or flexibility issues. I am in both of these categories, short and have a portion of my back fused/rods inserted so I do not bend well. The EZ-Flap is great in my 172. No more struggling to bend over to reach the flap handle for those first 2 notches of flaps. Just my $.0000002
Well, while it might satisfy a made up need, you won't want to admit it to your friends...
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I've talked to 185 guys who like the EZ Flap thing. I know more that don't. I figure the likers are primarily the Weejun and Dockers guys and the don't's are blue jeans and hiking boots guys. Leaning over to deploy or retract the first 10* happens in non-threatening times so I never understood the leaning down/losing site argument. I have no use for an EZ Flap. If you do? You should get one and disregard what other guys say.
aktango58
FRIEND
18AA
Like flying a Scout, Husky or Maule. While they often will do the mission designed for better, faster and more economical- Husky maybe not economical- it is just 'not done' in purist land!
We had a long discussion on them, I actually got a test one from the manufacture. Well made, but for the cub it was not workable. For Cessna flaps I can see where one might want it, but would like to try it pulling to 40 degrees before I was sold.
Sort of funny how pure Cessna converts are about their skywagons for being pure; after they put new tires, leading edges, panel, engine and prop on the beast.
Most pull 10 degrees before any type of run so we can reach the handle to 'pop' the skywagons off, or just set them at 20. Give the handle a try and let us know if it works for you.
We had a long discussion on them, I actually got a test one from the manufacture. Well made, but for the cub it was not workable. For Cessna flaps I can see where one might want it, but would like to try it pulling to 40 degrees before I was sold.
Sort of funny how pure Cessna converts are about their skywagons for being pure; after they put new tires, leading edges, panel, engine and prop on the beast.
Most pull 10 degrees before any type of run so we can reach the handle to 'pop' the skywagons off, or just set them at 20. Give the handle a try and let us know if it works for you.
cubdriver2
FRIEND
upstate NY
I thought the EZ flap seemed like a unneeded gadget till I got some 180 float time this fall. We were using 10* to start and then pulling 20 more to get off, worked ok with 3 of us and gear onboard. Old timer in back seat with 30 years flying skywagons on floats says leave flaps off and it will accerate quicker then pull 30 all at once. My bum shoulders didn't like that and now would like to try the sissy EZ handle.
Glenn
Glenn
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Ask him if he thinks it will get on the step quicker with the flaps up instead of 10 or 20 degrees. I'm with Stewart on this.
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
cubdriver2
FRIEND
upstate NY
Will try all of that next season. This is all new to me, 180 feels like a tank. I have over 900 float hrs but all in little Cubs/Champs with no flaps. Thanks for the help.
Glenn
Glenn
aktango58
FRIEND
18AA
Glenn,
the flap handle is the long thing in front of the Cessna's fuel selector, next to the water rudder pull up handle. You push the button on the end and pull, then the flappy things inboard of the ailerons go down!
It is sort of cool. Knowing you are stuck in planes without this lever, like Stearmans, Wacos, Fokkers and the like not sure you have seen them before:lol:;-)
One thing to keep in mind on the skywagon series, power and weight play a big role. If you are heavy you need to fly by the numbers and just let the plane move. Power up with yoke back and let her come up. If it does not come up after 5 to ten seconds, (will feel like a long time), only then push forward to get her to rebound up into a plow; (maybe a couple of times even). Once on plow and ready to tip to step, it will not happen quick, it will sort of come down and build... this is where you remember if your trim is set correctly
Once over on step, you need to just hold it in the sweet spot, which takes patients and constant adjustment of the elevator to keep it correct as speed builds... try to force it and you will just keep going and going and going on the water:-x
Heavy cubs are still quick and react, not so with heavy cessnas.
cubdriver2
FRIEND
upstate NY
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
Glenn,
I always set the flaps at 20 prior to takeoff in the 185. To me, the plane really likes the additional lift, particularly with all that thrust coming off the prop during the initial portion of the takeoff run.
Once I'm on the step, and the plane is about ready to fly, I MAY pull on 30 degrees just till the plane breaks water, but this is largely dependent on the model of floats, the load, the wind, etc. But, at that point, reaching the flap lever, which is already set at 20 degrees is easy.
If you HAVE to "pop" flaps to get on the step, you're doing something wrong to start with. And, frankly, if you HAVE to pop flaps to get a seaplane off the water, you may need some work on your technique and/or a different set of floats. Or, you're operating in a confined area that's a wee bit too tight. Same goes on wheels in my opinion....if you're truly HAVING to play those games with flaps to get out of somewhere, you may want to reconsider landing in those places. It is kinda fun playing with these tools, however.
The check airman who checked me out in the Beaver held the view that every float pilot should learn to fly floats in a single engine Otter. His theory was that there is absolutely no way you can muscle around an Otter to any effect, so you learn to finesse the thing. Once you learn to finesse a seaplane, now you're a seaplane pilot, and you can fly pretty much any seaplane reasonably well.
After a few hundred hours in the Beaver in winds, currents, etc, I became a true believer in his philosophy. Unfortunately, there aren't that many Otters available for training....
I see no value to the EZ Flap, and frankly, I think at times it's going to get in the way, but if you see any .
MTV
I always set the flaps at 20 prior to takeoff in the 185. To me, the plane really likes the additional lift, particularly with all that thrust coming off the prop during the initial portion of the takeoff run.
Once I'm on the step, and the plane is about ready to fly, I MAY pull on 30 degrees just till the plane breaks water, but this is largely dependent on the model of floats, the load, the wind, etc. But, at that point, reaching the flap lever, which is already set at 20 degrees is easy.
If you HAVE to "pop" flaps to get on the step, you're doing something wrong to start with. And, frankly, if you HAVE to pop flaps to get a seaplane off the water, you may need some work on your technique and/or a different set of floats. Or, you're operating in a confined area that's a wee bit too tight. Same goes on wheels in my opinion....if you're truly HAVING to play those games with flaps to get out of somewhere, you may want to reconsider landing in those places. It is kinda fun playing with these tools, however.
The check airman who checked me out in the Beaver held the view that every float pilot should learn to fly floats in a single engine Otter. His theory was that there is absolutely no way you can muscle around an Otter to any effect, so you learn to finesse the thing. Once you learn to finesse a seaplane, now you're a seaplane pilot, and you can fly pretty much any seaplane reasonably well.
After a few hundred hours in the Beaver in winds, currents, etc, I became a true believer in his philosophy. Unfortunately, there aren't that many Otters available for training....
I see no value to the EZ Flap, and frankly, I think at times it's going to get in the way, but if you see any .
MTV
aktango58
FRIEND
18AA
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
Everybody has a technique for float takeoff...whatever works at the time for the configuration is what counts. In a C-185 on a high DA day with no wind or waves at GW +10%, I put my $ and load on 10* flaps until on the step. Partial power (25" MP or preferably less) practice T/O's under those conditions convinced me.
After all the floatplane is a boat and needs speed more than lift to rise on the step in the conditions I noted (how do planes w/o flaps ever fly?). When light or under better conditions like wind and waves it probably doesn't matter what flap technique is used. And only 10* because the reach afforded by the EZ-flap wasn't available, but then I've never tried one.
But do whatever works for you...just remember it's that 5% of the time when DA, weight, water conditions, and ultimate float hull speed all conspire to cause problems so prepare for that ahead.
Cub drivers are spoiled by their excellent performance and few ever practice partial-power no-flap takeoffs to learn the boat's behavior.
GAP
After all the floatplane is a boat and needs speed more than lift to rise on the step in the conditions I noted (how do planes w/o flaps ever fly?). When light or under better conditions like wind and waves it probably doesn't matter what flap technique is used. And only 10* because the reach afforded by the EZ-flap wasn't available, but then I've never tried one.
But do whatever works for you...just remember it's that 5% of the time when DA, weight, water conditions, and ultimate float hull speed all conspire to cause problems so prepare for that ahead.
Cub drivers are spoiled by their excellent performance and few ever practice partial-power no-flap takeoffs to learn the boat's behavior.
GAP
One of my favorite calm water drills was to see how little power I could use to take off. Always at 20* flaps and the only time I'd jack the flap handle was in sticky glassy water. Take a few hundred pounds and move it around between take-offs. It teaches you about trim, that's for sure.
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
One of the difficulties of talking about 185 float ops is the significant variety of floats available for that airplane. And each of those float designs come with a slightly different technique that works best.
The first 185 I flew was on early PeeKay amphibious floats. Great floats to learn with because on relatively calm water, they will happily stay on the water until the pilot forces the issue or you give up.....at gross weight or even just close.
PK did figure that out, though, and their 3500 B and C floats are great floats.
As George said, those EDO 2960s in the picture are really prone to drag a heel. They are great floats, but easy to overload....pay attention to weights.
MTV
The first 185 I flew was on early PeeKay amphibious floats. Great floats to learn with because on relatively calm water, they will happily stay on the water until the pilot forces the issue or you give up.....at gross weight or even just close.
PK did figure that out, though, and their 3500 B and C floats are great floats.
As George said, those EDO 2960s in the picture are really prone to drag a heel. They are great floats, but easy to overload....pay attention to weights.
MTV
aktango58
FRIEND
18AA
A big tail 180 can haul the same as a 185 (with proper STC).
The reason to use more flaps on the skywagons is that it directs lots more air from the prop to the tail. Even full flaps to help lift the nose in plow and roll it down works great, but you need to get the flaps out as you roll level on step.
10 degrees into plow was really a significant extension in water run on the Aerocet Amphibs
The reason to use more flaps on the skywagons is that it directs lots more air from the prop to the tail. Even full flaps to help lift the nose in plow and roll it down works great, but you need to get the flaps out as you roll level on step.
10 degrees into plow was really a significant extension in water run on the Aerocet Amphibs
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
All we can do is relate our experience. On C-185 floats at gross weight plus (back when we could do that) an initial application of full aft trim got me from the boat mode to plane mode quickest with minimal airframe drag versus up elevator. Any more flaps did little to speed the process. At some point during the transition from plow to planing roll forward trim and/or down elevator and then apply 20* flaps for lift versus drag when that setting becomes effective. Final liftoff technique optional. This was mainly with EDO 3430's and some PK 3500's over many years. Never used 2960's.
But as I say whatever avoids running out of takeoff and climb out room on small waterbodies works best. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpmzZX7-VtA&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop
GAP
But as I say whatever avoids running out of takeoff and climb out room on small waterbodies works best. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpmzZX7-VtA&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop
GAP
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
George, I suggest that more flaps directs the prop blast to the wings thus increasing lift. Air over the tail only effects the ability to change the pitch angle. Once the bows have been raised it is the water flowing under the bottoms which lifts the floats up to the planning position. Extra flap provides more lift on the wings reducing the water forces required to push the floats up to plane. The more you can increase the lift on the wings and reduce the much higher water drag, the quicker the plane will accelerate and fly. There is also a sweet spot while climbing onto the step, look for it.
The 30 or 40 degree flap setting for climbing on the step works best when there is a wind blowing which is creating waves. Be careful when lifting off with 40 flaps in gusty conditions as the rudder can be blocked reducing effectiveness when a wing drops and you run out of aileron. When the wind is not blowing, flaps 30 or 40 is too much drag. If you are operating in rough water without the wind blowing, that's another ball game.
Glenn, As noted those 2960s have long after bodys. These can drag when rotated for liftoff particularly when loaded as you described. A better method would be to roll the right float slightly out of the water at the same time as increasing flap slightly. This will cut the water drag in half. Also using 20 degrees of flap provides more lift on the wing reducing the water drag. Water drag is higher than air drag, but you knew this. Find the sweet spot on those floats, accelerate on the aft edge. I've taken home the trophy at Greenville using 2960s in the TO contest.
In my simple mind.... just like on tires, it's much easier to hold the plane tail high when flaps are out. More flaps-easier to lift and hold the airplane in a level attitude. Taxi with the tail high and retract flaps... tail drops like a stone. I always figured the same thing applies to floats. If you want to land and step down the lane on a calm day you probably leave flaps out. If you want to stop quickly you retract flaps and let the plane settle in. At least I always did. And like on tires when the bumps are bad you do what you have to do to get gear off the surface as quickly as possible and then use ground effect to gain speed before climbing out. On floats sometimes those bumps are below the surface. Other times it's a knucklehead in a boat who's steering into your takeoff path. You need all the tools.
aktango58
FRIEND
18AA
First: I am not advocating takeoff with 40 degrees flaps. In fact, I don't even land with that much! Actually, most landings are with 20 degrees, once in a great while I will pull 30, but only for certain conditions.
However, I agree that flaps give lift, but from displacement to step having 40 degrees out there is not a matter of lift at first, only once you actually get some speed... the extra flaps will direct the prop blast down and channel it to the tail and give you more authority, (See the above post from Stewart). Now, if you leave all that flap down, you will cause yourself lots of extra water run, not what one really needs in a float plane ever. So you must reduce.
On step, the less flap out the quicker you will accelerate. Practical operations means 10 degrees so you can reach the handle without crawling under the panel when it is time for flaps... and all the lift available for breaking out of the water is nice... but can slow you down if you hold all the flaps out for any time at all.
All that said, on most takeoffs if you set 20 degrees on the skywagon with a legal load, point to clear path and apply power you will be just fine. All the fussing with extra flap, less flap and such, if not done correctly, just adds to your stress and often to the water run. Pull flaps and let the tail touch and you will stay on the water!
If you really really want to be proficient, go find a T-crate or champ with a 65 hp and fly it on floats. Learning how to keep it right at the sweet spot is the most important skill you can have for lifting off the water, and underpowered small floated birds will do that for you.
Even a 180 is not underpowered at gross...
However, I agree that flaps give lift, but from displacement to step having 40 degrees out there is not a matter of lift at first, only once you actually get some speed... the extra flaps will direct the prop blast down and channel it to the tail and give you more authority, (See the above post from Stewart). Now, if you leave all that flap down, you will cause yourself lots of extra water run, not what one really needs in a float plane ever. So you must reduce.
On step, the less flap out the quicker you will accelerate. Practical operations means 10 degrees so you can reach the handle without crawling under the panel when it is time for flaps... and all the lift available for breaking out of the water is nice... but can slow you down if you hold all the flaps out for any time at all.
All that said, on most takeoffs if you set 20 degrees on the skywagon with a legal load, point to clear path and apply power you will be just fine. All the fussing with extra flap, less flap and such, if not done correctly, just adds to your stress and often to the water run. Pull flaps and let the tail touch and you will stay on the water!
If you really really want to be proficient, go find a T-crate or champ with a 65 hp and fly it on floats. Learning how to keep it right at the sweet spot is the most important skill you can have for lifting off the water, and underpowered small floated birds will do that for you.
Even a 180 is not underpowered at gross...
