EAA Young Eagles (New Rules)

[jjbaker]

Think of it this way: When the Young Eagles Program is finally killed (less pilots and less events, with less kids showing up) EAA will have a perfect excuse: "Hey, we had to scrap it, because 90% of our members refused to do a 5 Minute background check." Another 20 years down the road, when cash is a thing of the past and computer chips dictate our every move, we'll be able to say that GA was killed by making sure that people who fly with kids are not undiscovered criminals.

We're already being classified as a criminal for simply operating an airplane (most swallow that without even flinching) and we seem to have no issue with getting our airplanes searched - without a hint of reason or warrant - when flying close to a border. But giving the EAA a tool to tell concerned out of their knickers parents that the pilots flying their kids are statistically unlikely to harass them, is too much.

Here we are whining and moaning about a lack of new people coming into aviation. We complain about the grey hair everywhere.
Looks like a freight train at full speed with no engineer in the cabin to me. Self-destruction from within, in its raw form.

I bet there is more "history" to this step than is being openly communicated. I'd guess EAA is fully aware that without people dedicating their time, money and effort to this, there would not be a single Young Eagle flight. Does anyone really believe that they'd upset such an important showcase program without a very valid and legally destructive reason?

 

[Mike Woodson]

Any reason we have not heard from Eaton on this? Strangely silent....

 

[stewartb]

Whether this is strictly about kids and liability is speculation. Whether anyone thinks it'll work isn't important. EAA may have reasons that you don't understand. It seems like a very minor bump in the road for anyone who wants to work with kids and in essence by working with kids using the organization's rules it helps protect you.

Definition: An employee is a person who works in the service of another person under an express or implied contract of hire, under which the employer has the right to control the details of work performance (Black's Law Dictionary).
An employee is hired for a specific job or to provide labor and who works in the service of someone else (the employer). The IRS classifies a worker as an employee as follows: In general, anyone who performs services for an organization is an employee if the organization can control what will be done and how it will be done.
The control question is used to determine whether a worker is an employee or an independent contractor.The factors designating someone as an employee include:

• A specific wage or salary
• An implied or written contract
• Control of the person's work by the employer

 

[aktango58]

Those of you that are jumping on the bandwagon to give over all your information to an unknown source and are willing to go along with a bad policy will be participating in a crippled program.
-Cub Builder

Is that program like an "Ill" Eagle?:lol:

Someone had to bring some mellow back into this discussion.


Every one of you going on about knee jerk reaction, please consider your response:-? I had the same one until I thought about it for 12 hours.

Now sit back and take a look at what the country has turned into, and what we all do to protect ourselves.

Consider the 2 person aircraft rules. Think about this, a 150 is a 2 person plane, as is a Traumahawk, sky catcher and many others that are side by side.

Now, take a flight with little Mary, who's parents believe that everyone is out to do harm. You meet them at the fence, they walk Mary to your plane, and you get her in and the seat belt on, then as you crawl into your plane your head and torso will probably push agains little Mary.

Now you go through your safety stuff, and the shoulder harness is not on, and because she is not aircraft savvy you reach across her and get the harness, then down to the seatbelt buckle and snap it in. Where did your arm have to go? where did your hands have to go?

After the flight you help with unbuckling Mary who then goes and tells her parents all about the flight. In the car ride home Mary tells about the shoulder harness that she did not know about and you buckling it in...

Now the parents, being typical hysterical types, go ballistic because that pilot might have 'Touched our daughter', and so it begins.

Now you sit there being accused, with no documentation for the insuring organization to show that you are not a Known offender. How is that going to work out in the long run folks?

Solution: 1. kill all the lawyers. 2. Keep working to get away from the Nanny state. 3. maybe instead of convicting the EAA background check, find out who they use to do such checks. Yes, it may be a private party, but did you know that many of the government checks use contractors? Go get a flying job, you don't think the company will do some sort of background check on you???

Keep your eyes on the prize please, aviation is dying without a serious effort to educate and familiarize others that we are not bad people.

Do I like this idea? No. But I have had to be checked to do firearm training, and a bunch of other stuff. The only job right now that I believe you don't need to be checked for is the President of the US:lol:

So gripe away, but put on your big boy pants and fill the paperwork out and help aviation.

end rant.

 

[hotrod180]

http://www.startribune.com/anoka-co...of-boys-kills-self-on-eve-of-trial/301548231/
I think the above link is the reason why the EAA made the policy change. This guy wrecked it for all of us.....

A similar story....some of you in the PNW may recall a UPS airline guy named Mark Gilbert who flight instructed out of Thun Field KPLU. He was (part?) owner of Spenser Aircraft for a while. Several years ago he was convicted of sexually abusing young boys, at least some of whom were met through his flight instruction activities. Don't know if a background check would have prevented this, maybe not, but at least an attempt would have been made.

 

[WindOnHisNose]

George, you echo my feelings.

As an aside, I was thinking about this exactly in the terms you described regarding a young girl who, in my super cub, is helped into the back seat, which can be an ordeal. Sometimes I need to "guide" them into the seat with my hands, despite giving them instruction on how they should accomplish the task. I then explain to them as I buckle up the waist strap, connecting the shoulder straps, making sure the straps are correctly positioned (not reversed), then seating the male end of the buckle into the female end (nice wording, eh?). I then pull on the belts to make sure they are snug.

One of the things I have worried about over the years of participating in YE flights is the fact that some pilots are pretty pissed poor at explaining what is going on, particularly with seat belts. These kids are wide-eyed and many are more than a little bit anxious about the flight. If Mom or Dad, or Grandma or Grandpa, are not standing there watching this can be a downright scary thing for them...that is why I really like the parents/grandparents to come over to the cockpit to closely watch what is going on. It is my experience that there is much less anxiety if they are right there.

Another thing that amazes me is the trust that these parents/etc are placing in us as pilots. It turns out that I am one proud Grandpa, and my grandson, Jaxen, is wanting to be a "pirot", shown here a few days ago "flying" a grocery cart...

Just as I know there are some doctors I would be OK with taking care of my family, friends and loved ones, and some I would definitely NOT want to do so, there are some pilots that I would be OK with giving Jaxen a first ride, and some I would definitely NOT want to do so. It amazes me the major leap of faith of these prospective Young Eagles parents and grandparents have when they come to the airport, sign the waivers and let us walk them to the aircraft, help hoist them into our aircraft, buckle them in and take off...without knowing ANYTHING about our flying history, our personal history, our judgement, our health. I am very sure that any ride Jaxen gets will be with someone I greatly trust, just from a flying perspective. Overlay that with the possibility that the pilot might be a pedifile and there is a whole other level of trust. I can promise that hell would have no wrath like that should someone abuse my children or my grandchildren!

I remember the first time I attended the 3EX Chili flyin at Excelsior Springs, to support Jim and Sarah Dickerson's cause. There was a cantankerous older pilot who taxied right up in front of the already crowded ramp, parked his C150 so as to obstruct flow of those who attended, crawled out of his aircraft wearing a bomber jacket, a baseball cap adorned with pins and wearing "Molester" sunglasses (as Jim put it). He was hell bent on giving YE rides and somehow we were able to avert this...word was out that he was an unsafe pilot. Despite our best efforts to prevent this, he enticed a mom to let her son go for his first YE flight and sure enough this guy takes off WITH FULL FLAPS on a warm day and I recall the sick feeling in my stomach as I watched this happen. We made damned sure that Lester gave no more YE rides that day.

Sorry for the rambling, but George started it!

Randy

 

[behindpropellers]

Dear Young Eagle pilots,

Yesterday I got very sad news from your EAA Young Eagle program office at Oshkosh. Dressing up new policy as “Introducing the Youth Protection Policy”, effective immediately, all volunteers wishing to participate in the Young Eagles program will have to go through a 25 minute online training course. After that, each volunteer will also have to submit personal data to a third party vendor to undergo a background check (paid for by EAA with your dues) with results hopefully coming within 10 days. This would have to be repeated every 3 years. There will also be a 10 page set of rules for volunteers to follow and for coordinators to enforce during any event.

With utter disappointment, I called both the numbers listed on my letter as mangers of the program. This change was not brought about by any event but by direct orders from “corporate”. They said “best practices” were to develop this program since other youth activities had similar programs. I think the saddest part was the manager calling a non-profit meant to promote aviation “corporate”, maybe his lack of courage to stand up against this useless program, or maybe the fact this program would not address first time offenders which would be 99.999% of the cases.

Tonight I met with our chapter president and we reviewed the materials presented. We talked about options and weighed possible outcomes. If we decided to take on the additional scrutiny, finding pilots and volunteers would become more difficult. There is even more critical rules for 2 seat airplanes, such as a cub, that result in more guidelines. We would not have a problem finding qualified individuals, but we would find a lack of interest in volunteers who give up so much already, bothering with additional scrutiny and invasion of privacy. This program would not find any first time offenders, which is probably 99.99% of them.

It is with great sadness that I must report that our chapter has suspended our Young Eagles program for the foreseeable future. Due to increased requirements and burdens placed on EAA1560 by EAA “corporate”, we have been forced to to take this action. For many of us, this program is the only reason we are members. I personally spent hundreds of hours last year dedicated to Young Eagles. This breaks my heart that we will not be able to share aviation with our local youth anymore.

If you would like to read the new 10 page policy, you may read it here. There is also a FAQ here.

If you would wish to contact (and I encourage you to do so) those responsible for the Young Eagles program they are:

Dick Knapinski
Director of Communications
(920) 426-6523
dknapinski@eaa.org

Brian O'Lena
Manager, EAA Young Eagles
(920) 426-6297
bolena@eaa.org

Michelle Kunes
Program Coordinator, Young Ealges
(902) 426-6114
mkunes@eaa.org

If you'd like to read other opinions or discuss this topic in a national EAA forum, you will find the thread here.

Sincerely,
Chris Nesin

Chris,

This kind of thing is driven by insurance companies, CYA. I had to do the same thing to be a waterski instructor....

Tim

 

[Carey Gray]

Here's my suggestion--
Leave the damned gates open on Saturday and Sunday. Let Mom and Dad or Grandma and Grandpa bring the kids in. Let them stop at the hangars. I've got time for them. Let the kid sit in the airplane. If it seems like the kid's interested and the parents/grand parents are OK, maybe the kid gets a ride. Maybe the parents do, too.
Right now, we have locked gates.
I've never been a big fan of the Young Eagles thing, too many volunteer pilots that I wouldn't want to fly with.

 

[Super11XP]

I find it rather ironic that 90-95% of all experimental aircraft are 2 seaters, and now they aren't useable to give YE rides. Funny ha ha.

 

[Bighorn]

I have too, however it will be hard to do now at and organized event

 

[behindpropellers]

The difference is the parents are required to be there to sign the release. They should monitor their children at all times. The only time they can't is when they are in the airplane. Now how will the background check help again?

Chris,

There are plenty of waiver apps to take care of this. We use one at our club ski lake. No hassle. We are protected and record keeping is simple. This would be a positive complaint for EAA. Bring me solutions, not complaints.

 

[Tom Jones]

To quote the rules as they seem to apply to two seat airplanes:

"Due to the nature of some of EAA-related programs (e.g., two-seat Young Eagles aircraft rides), there are times when it will be impossible for two (2) adults to be present in an activity involving a Youth. In such cases, the staff member or volunteer should take particular care to ensure that the Youth and their parents are aware of the circumstances."

Huh?? Just what does "aware of the circumstances" mean? A special warning to the kid and the family that little Nancy or Johnny is in more danger in a two seat airplane because the pilot doesn't have screened adult supervision? I'm not real comfortable with the idea of giving a kid a ride (and I have well over 100 YE rides in the Cub with Chapter 1) when they've been warned I'm potentially dangerous and they need to keep an eye on me.

And the no-photography provision would seem to preclude using a GoPro in the cockpit for self-defense. So, you get potentially set up when they plant the idea by warning the kids and the families, and probably scaring some of them, and then take away any mechanism for defense? Then, even if you manage to get the GoPro legal, you'll need to figure out how to keep the unedited footage longer than the statute of limitation for child molestation, just in case there is some "repressed memory recovery" done later.

Normally I'm not particularly prone to paranoia, but this really isn't helping.

Tom

 

[nesincg]

Chris,

There are plenty of waiver apps to take care of this. We use one at our club ski lake. No hassle. We are protected and record keeping is simple. This would be a positive complaint for EAA. Bring me solutions, not complaints.

I don't understand. Do you fly Young Eagles?

 

[WindOnHisNose]

I find it rather ironic that 90-95% of all experimental aircraft are 2 seaters, and now they aren't useable to give YE rides. Funny ha ha.

Clint, I don't interpret the guidelines as saying that we cannot give rides in 2 seaters...it simply doesn't say that. It sure as heck doesn't say you can't give rides in an experimental aircraft.

What did you see that made you come to those conclusions?

Randy

 

[WindOnHisNose]

Received this notification 2 days after completing the online review. Again, I am not happy with the fact that this needs to be done to give YE flights and to be a flight leader, it is necessary and I feel a small price to pay to promote aviation for these kids.

Some of you have pointed out that you can just give rides on your own, without the YE hoops to jump through, and I feel the same way, and applaud you for doing so! Whatever it takes to promote aviation to our kids is OK by me.

Randy

 

[nesincg]

Clint, I don't interpret the guidelines as saying that we cannot give rides in 2 seaters...it simply doesn't say that. It sure as heck doesn't say you can't give rides in an experimental aircraft.

What did you see that made you come to those conclusions?

Randy

Outside a YE rally, they cannot unless:
4(a) Two-Deep Leadership: There are two additional YE trained and checked YE persons helping. Then one has to make sure the parent is "aware of the circumstances" they are riding in a two seat plane.
5(d) Communications: They must provide the parents with a copy of the Young Eagle protection policy
11. Recordkeeping: Must keep for three years, a record of a. Parent contact information and other emergency contact information. b. Acknowledgement of receipt of policies on discipline, prohibited activities, and signin/sign-out procedures.

Only 3 Chapters in my area (100 mi) have rallies. Now it is down to two for now. The rest gave individual rides.

 

[hotrod180]

.........Just as I know there are some doctors I would be OK with taking care of my family, friends and loved ones, and some I would definitely NOT want to do so, there are some pilots that I would be OK with giving Jaxen a first ride, and some I would definitely NOT want to do so......
There was a cantankerous older pilot .......... He was hell bent on giving YE rides and somehow we were able to avert this...word was out that he was an unsafe pilot.....

This was my other thought about screening pilots, other than pedafile types.
I know pilots (I'm using that term loosely) who I wouldn't ride with, and for sure wouldn't want any kids I know flying with. I don't recall the details, but a number of years ago a pilot took off from Paine Field KPAE with a planeload of kids for a YE-type ride, and managed to auger it in & kill everyone on board. I don't know if it was pilot error, mechanical failure, or just what, but I do know it was a bad show and didn't make aviation & free rides for kids look any too good.

 

[Super11XP]

Hi Randy, after rereading the guidelines, I can see that 2 seaters CAN still be used. However, the whole "attitude" of the new guidelines seem IMO to frown on anytime where a YE pilot is alone with a passenger. Thanks for setting me straight.
Just to make sure so everyone knows, eaa doesn't have much of a presence here at Hot Springs where I'm at, and I've never actually been part of the YE program. What these new guidelines mean to me is that I now never will be. I will however continue to give anyone that is interested a ride.
A paddlocked door will only keep an honest man out, but rarely a criminal.

 

[behindpropellers]

I don't understand. Do you fly Young Eagles?

You were complaining about waivers and keeping records.

 

[nesincg]

You were complaining about waivers and keeping records.

The parent has always had to sign waivers and EAA keeps the records. It seems you miss the point. Have you flown any Young Eagle flights?

 

[aktango58]

The parent has always had to sign waivers and EAA keeps the records. It seems you miss the point. Have you flown any Young Eagle flights?

NO, I have not. I was an EAA member for a short time, then the group fell apart. Not been one since, probably will remain a non-member as there are no groups around close.

I would and do take kids flying. I do teach youth firearms safety. I do take youth out trapping, hunting, and riding sleds.

At some point our madness needs to stop as a society. Maybe we need to start with punishment for those that do offend

 

[jjbaker]

EAA is the umbrella organization giving its name to the EAA Young Eagles program. Involvement = Liability.

Each one of us is capable to offer flights to youth though sanctioned events or privately. IMHO the EAA Young Eagles program gives more structure and a way to organize these events at a larger scale than mom and pop will organize in their backyard. Its a tool in the shed and we should use it.

Example: Jeremy Williams in Hampden, Maine. Has (or had, at least while I was there) a big fly-in during which kids could go fly and experience flying. The cost and effort for the pilots, aircraft owners or involved "volunteers" is the same. Surrounding community learns and is exposed to aviation. To these kiddos, pilots and airplanes are the damn coolest thing on planet earth. Each one of us who is a pilot and even talks to a kid is leaving a impression that will prevail for decades. We plant seeds.

At the end of the day, I see two choices:

1. We work our ass off, whatever it takes to get more kids and youngsters converted into future aviators.
2. We spend the rest of our days moaning about the cruel environment and how difficult everything has become.

EAA made a decision to "get up to par" with other activities involving youth. For the most part they leave pilot selection, who's allowed and not allowed, up to us. I don't have to be a EAA member to appreciate and support the work these chapters (not corporate, guys, it's the chapters who make it happen) extend towards the goal. If someone feels they can organize a similar event without flying the EAA flag, why not. I know a bunch of guys my non existent kids would not fly with, heck, been flying for 26 years and wouldn't fly with some myself.

Anytime (yes, caused by PC and societal changes) we have an exposure of children with adults, there will be concerns. Realistic or not, doesn't matter. What if? What are you going to tell your wife or husband when SHTF? What is EAA going to tell those parents? Imagine putting your child in someone else's airplane. Take a flying buddy or fellow member of your forum. Now imagine putting that same child into an airplane with a person who isn't remotely known to you. Not only are you expected to trust this (likely older) fellow to transport your kid, you also trust that your beautiful daughter (remember what you told the first boyfriend about touching her?) will be somewhat safe in the presence of that completely strange person. Sure thing my kid's going to ride in someone duck-taped contraption and certainly its going to be a guy with a "I Like Boobs!" T-Shirt and can't articulate a complete sentence without using language.

People LOOOOVE statistics. Someone can pass a stupid background check today and kill a cinema full of people tomorrow, but somehow our fellow citizen like and call for these proforma qualifiers. Gotta feel safe and doing something is better than nothing.

Focus on the goal. It's getting white out there (not snow). Sales are slumping. Prices are only going up. Remember the RAF credo.

When if not now, who if not us?

Be frustrated with EAA "Corporate" all you want. But please keep those lights on for the youngsters.

Remember, someone left them on for you...

 

[behindpropellers]

Have you flown any Young Eagle flights?

Never Have.

Flown plenty of kids off of the lake on skis though. All of these requirements are a PITA but unfortunately, insurance companies are likely the driving factor.

 

[Snert]

You should be able to qualify by showing a Concealed Carry Permit as an alternative to the EAA background check. It proves that you have already had a background check.
Just dreaming. It won't happen.

 

[Eddie Foy]

You should be able to qualify by showing a Concealed Carry Permit as an alternative to the EAA background check. It proves that you have already had a background check.
Just dreaming. It won't happen.

They would probably bar you as an NRA loving radical!

 

[n40ff]

You should be able to qualify by showing a Concealed Carry Permit as an alternative to the EAA background check. It proves that you have already had a background check.
Just dreaming. It won't happen.

It will almost bar you from being a foster parent I some states.

 

[Cub Builder]

EAA is the umbrella organization giving its name to the EAA Young Eagles program. Involvement = Liability.

The EAAs talking head (Bret Steffen) that replied to this subject on in the EAA Forum on this topic said very specifically that this is not an insurance/liability issue. He went on to say that while nothing has actually happened to a YE during a YE flight or event, there have been three incidents where someone was accused of improprieties with a child, and coincidentally was also a YE pilot, so the EAA was mentioned along side the name of a suspected child abuser in an article and that could potentially put the EAA in a negative light.

Each one of us is capable to offer flights to youth though sanctioned events or privately. IMHO the EAA Young Eagles program gives more structure and a way to organize these events at a larger scale than mom and pop will organize in their backyard. Its a tool in the shed and we should use it.

It's been a wonderful tool. It's a shame corporate EAA chose to kill it this way as it is likely they will also run off a fair amount of the current membership. As much as I genuinely hate to see it, these corporate folks aren't going to "get it" until the board is asking them why the YE program died, or why 1/3 of the membership stopped paying dues.

At the end of the day, I see two choices:

1. We work our ass off, whatever it takes to get more kids and youngsters converted into future aviators.
2. We spend the rest of our days moaning about the cruel environment and how difficult everything has become.

You make it clear that you see pilots that choose to take a stand and not roll over for corporate EAA as a bunch of whiners. My opinion is clearly different as I exercise my choice not to voluntarily give my personal information over to yet another unknown entity, and not allow the EAA to treat me as a suspected criminal. If the EAA chooses not to allow me to fly kids under their banner, that is THEIR choice. If you want to put up with their nonsense, I genuinely applaud your patience. If you believe this is the right thing to do and a necessary policy, I feel really sad that you see your world that way. I'm just not wired that way. My BS threshold is apparently significantly lower than yours.

EAA made a decision to "get up to par" with other activities involving youth. For the most part they leave pilot selection, who's allowed and not allowed, up to us. I don't have to be a EAA member to appreciate and support the work these chapters (not corporate, guys, it's the chapters who make it happen) extend towards the goal. If someone feels they can organize a similar event without flying the EAA flag, why not. I know a bunch of guys my non existent kids would not fly with, heck, been flying for 26 years and wouldn't fly with some myself.

Anytime (yes, caused by PC and societal changes) we have an exposure of children with adults, there will be concerns. Realistic or not, doesn't matter. What if? What are you going to tell your wife or husband when SHTF? What is EAA going to tell those parents? Imagine putting your child in someone else's airplane. Take a flying buddy or fellow member of your forum. Now imagine putting that same child into an airplane with a person who isn't remotely known to you. Not only are you expected to trust this (likely older) fellow to transport your kid, you also trust that your beautiful daughter (remember what you told the first boyfriend about touching her?) will be somewhat safe in the presence of that completely strange person. Sure thing my kid's going to ride in someone duck-taped contraption and certainly its going to be a guy with a "I Like Boobs!" T-Shirt and can't articulate a complete sentence without using language.

People LOOOOVE statistics. Someone can pass a stupid background check today and kill a cinema full of people tomorrow, but somehow our fellow citizen like and call for these proforma qualifiers. Gotta feel safe and doing something is better than nothing.

Focus on the goal. It's getting white out there (not snow). Sales are slumping. Prices are only going up. Remember the RAF credo.

When if not now, who if not us?

I agree with your last line. If I don't take a stand against this heavy handed nonsense now, at what point do we put a stop to it? I see those that go along with this policy as enablers for more corporate abuse. I don't expect everyone, or for that matter, anyone, to agree with my view. For every new policy like this, there will be people where the policy will exceed their threshold for BS. While I disagree with your decision to capitulate to the EAA, I understand and respect your choice. But you also need to respect those that choose not to allow the EAA to bully them into something they feel is wrong.

Be frustrated with EAA "Corporate" all you want. But please keep those lights on for the youngsters.

I am truly sorry the backlash to the EAAs heavy handed policy is likely to kill the YE program. From the feedback I'm getting, I don't think there is any chance our EAA chapter can muster enough volunteers to host a YE event. We have been doing 4 per year, all at different airports, at least one annually at a remote dirt strip for working ranch kids that never get near an airport or an airplane. It deeply saddens me to see these events cancelled, but on a personal level I feel that I must make a stand and not allow the EAA to simply trample over this volunteer. Most of the pilots in our local EAA Chapter have expressed similar feelings. And finding vetted volunteers to work on the ground is going to be next to impossible.

Remember, someone left them on for you...

Yes. Someone did leave the light on for me. And it wasn't through an EAA program. I have fought long and hard against the local bureaucracies that have done their level best to wring the life blood out of the local airport. Many times in negotiations with the local county, I have been the only one there to beat them back. I am very passionate about this keeping the lights on for the next generation. But I can not allow the EAA to steamroll me. In my view, the corporate EAA just joined the group intent upon killing aviation, with the exception of AirVenture, Inc.

-Cub Builder

 

[scout88305]

You should be able to qualify by showing a Concealed Carry Permit as an alternative to the EAA background check. It proves that you have already had a background check.
Just dreaming. It won't happen.

Last time through the gates at Air Venture they searched my bag and the straw hatted girl freaked out when she saw my Glock and a spare mag. A chat with a Winnebago Co. K9 officer got me through after showing credentials. Carry Permits at Air Venture don't cut it FYI there is lots of signage spelling that out. Another sore spot with me and EAA. Sorry to get off topic, but they don't care about your carry permit.

 

[bob turner]

Wow. Should I take a Glock to the next Air Venture? I knew there was an element of danger, but thought it was mostly due to congested airspace.

 

[scout88305]

Wow. Should I take a Glock to the next Air Venture? I knew there was an element of danger, but thought it was mostly due to congested airspace.

How is one to know anymore? The guy in the crowd standing next to you just might ruin or save the day. I'm not one to give up options allowed to me by law. You don't think AV could be a target? Big planes, lots of fuel, big crowds, packs and lawn chairs strapped on everybody, military presence, publicized event.