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Drooped Wing Tips/Extended Wings

Erik

Erik

Registered User
I found my Super Cub! It's a beautiful plane that's been well loved over the years and with most of the right mods. The only thing is, it has extended wings/drooped wing tips. I really wanted the stock wings (probably more for aesthetics than anything). But it's too nice a plane to pass up just because of that. This will be my first Super Cub, and the first time really getting used to a Super Cub.

I've searched this site and found some threads on this subject. Most people are against the drooped wings, some don't like the weight, some don't like the effects in turbulence, some like extended wings but no droop, a few like the droop, some think it's 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other. All seem to agree that if you extend the wing, you really should extend the ailerons. This plane does have extended ailerons. I don't know the exact brand of wing tip, but I can find out.

Question: Should I change the wings back to stock immediately, or should I fly it for a year and then decide?

Thanks, Erik
 
Hello Erik,

I just bought the -18 with extended wings; my guess is the extended ailerons are "Day and Night". Try it as is if you buy. You'll recover sooner or later.

Mike

P.S. the spelling maybe bad as a result of booze, remember I just bought an airplane.
 
Eric,
If it has extended ailerons, you'll like it. If it's rigged properly it'll fly great. I have built several of them and like the way they handle. Cruise suffers about 8 mph. If you don't like the droop tips you can always change them later. I 've flown the long wings in all kinds of winds etc and found no adverse conditions. They'll handle anything that a stock wing will.

cubsunlimited@verizon.net
 
Eric,

Fly it till you get a feel for it, then see if you can get a ride in other's airplanes to compare. They you can see for yourself whether you think its an important enough issue to spend a lot of money on. It would cost a LOT of money, by the way.

Fly it. That's what they're for, and these airplanes aren't that ugly, especially in this country, where turbulence isn't that common.

MTV
 
One more thing guys. I forgot to mention why I'm buying a SC. It certainly is not for speed. These things are embarrassingly slow. It's not for Sunday pleasure flying either. I will be doing short and rough field work a lot. Ridge tops, gravel bars, short hunting strips, air show STOL competition, etc... So if the wing tip droop is better for those applications over the stock wing, then I would rather have the droop even if that means the plane is less attractive (in my opinion). One bad thing is that it is lower to the ground which increases the chance for wing damage, and then it's probably more difficult to repair after such an incident. But I would put the priority on which wing arrangement normally functions best.

Who knows, maybe I'll grow to love the droopy tip look!
 
Tips

Eric,
Buy it and fly it as is. If you use the plane as you say you will like the mod.
And for the record them droopy tips have saved many wing spars. You get
up on a wing with the wood bows on ruff ground and there goes both spars.
It's pretty easey to put the tips in the dirt but they are cheaper to replace. Wayne
 
Eric, congratulations.

Now, start burning gas. Nobody will argue that time in the a/c will be the most important ingredient that makes the thing perform.

DAVE
 
Yea,Wayne is right.
The tips act as a sorta/kinda skid plate when you screw up a landing. They will absorb a lot of energy before the spars bend.
In fact , with my landings, I thought of putting little wheels on the trailing edge of the tips. Kinda like the B52.
Fly it.
 
tips

I suspect that there are plenty of people who would gladly trade. If you want to be in STOL competitions, why not the tips and ailerons??

Consider yourself luck, and have fun!!
 
Stearman,

I kind of got the impression the leading theory is that you can't really improve on the stock wing design. Maybe just change the flying characteristics. You seem to imply that greater wing performance is a given with the extended wing and wing tip mods. People are still putting them on, so maybe that is so. But I don't think everyone agrees.

Thanks, Erik
 
Wing design

Hi Erik. You're probably correct about the stock wing. Let's leave it alone. But lets increase the gross to 2000lb. No, how about 2300lb. Hey, let's make this thing really worth while and go for 2500lb. After all, going from a wing loading of 8.9lb/sq ft to 12.8lb/sq ft can't possibly change a flight characteristic can it? Even if it did it wouldn't be nearly as bad as lowering the wing loading to 8.75lb/sq ft by way of square tips. Just think about it. :-? Jerry.
 
Jerry,

I'm glad you chimed in! I read you and Crash going at it on other similar threads. I think you are trying to apply a little "common sense" by your analogy. Let me try to interpret what you have indicated, and let's see if I get it right:

You are saying that by adding more wing (extended/squared/drooped, whatever you want to call it), for any given aircraft weight, the wing loading will be less then with a stock wing that has less area. More area, same weight equals less wing loading. Ok great. I got that principle.

Now, the next question: What does wing loading do for you? This seems to be intuitive also. Assuming that the stock and modified wings have the same aerodynamic properties (i.e. produce the same amounts of lift for each square foot of surface area at the same speeds), then the modified wing with more surface area should fly off the ground and develop the same overall lift at slower speeds than stock. Better STOL because of slower speeds. Am I good so far?

So if the above is true, then the ultimate STOL machine (stock Super Cub) should be even more ultimate (can I say that?) by the addition of extended wings/modified tips (Super Dupper Cub)

But then Crash says what he says and confuses me...

Thanks, Erik
 
Ya, Jerry is right! Add all the gross weight kits, then add 16 lbs of plates, fiberglass wing tips, plywood or Univair full rib to attach it to, screws nuts and bolts to your wings. Then take it to the Air Show and watch some old Bush pilot in a stock wing Cub whoop your ass and make you really look like a fool.

All kidding aside, I bought my Cub and it was set up the same way as the one you're looking at. Flew it for awhile and thought it was a real hot rod. One day I took it out on a big sand bar and had a fly off with a friend in his stock Cub with the same engine, prop and load. We measured our take offs and landings, marking them with surveyors tape and hunks of drift wood. At the end of the day we were dead even. I though "what does all this extra crap on my wings do?"

My opinion after 12 years of flying it that way, heres is what droop tips, extended flaps and extended ailerons do for you...

1) In a spin you'd better give yourself another 1,000' to get out of it after the first two turns. 16lbs out on the tips of the wings add a lot to centrifugal force.

2) In turbulence you get bounced around a lot more. I watch the Cub next to me in flight and he is not getting bounced near as much.

3) Adds another 20 lbs of pressure to the left and right stick force.

4) In strong crosswinds take along an extra pair of underwear, you'll need them.

5) Get good at lifting a wing to see the plane flying next to you or anything else off your wing tip.

6) Take along some big bandages to fix the cuts on your head after you walk into them. I knocked the corner off mine with my head on a hunting trip, then hurt my hand when I slugged it.

7) Cuts in half the number of guys that would be potential buyers for your Cub.

8) Puts a lot of additional stress on the wing spars at the lift strut attachments as well as the lift struts in turbulence, wind from the rear and snow loads. Most of the planes that lost their wings first in the last big wind storm were extended wing Cubs.

9) Ruins the classic looks of an almost perfect airplane.

10) Extended flaps put a lot of strain on the entire flap deployment system as well as torque on the already over taxed little rear spar.

Yes, Jerry and I go at it. He flys a modified 800 lb, 100 hp Continental power J-3 with extended and drooped everything. He is mister Droop.
We go at it from different perspectives.

I fly a 1,200 lb, 180 hp, PA-18 with "heavy duty" everything, hauling out an entire moose at a time.


You need to define your mission and buy or build around that. Crash
 
Erik

I feel like taking a sawzall to my Droop Tips whenever the PA12 is in a hanger. Crash is right about walking into them, no fun. Seeing the guy next to you, or looking for traffic, lift a wing . I would prefer not to have them, but, like you, the PA12 had so many other "good Mod's", I live with the Droop's. Maybe I could grind them down, evenly, and claim to have just dragged the tips on poor pavement landing technique?

GFree
 
behindpropellers said:
Crash said:
I fly a 1,200 lb, 180 hp, PA-18 with "heavy duty" everything, hauling out an entire moose at a time.
Click to expand...

Wow crash. That is pretty impressive. What kind of moose are you hauling? Moose Calves? Starved moose? Moose skeletons? Or do they just fly the plane without you in it? :D :P


http://www.smouse.force9.co.uk/facts.htm

Tim
Click to expand...

Tim,

Moose are heavy, no doubt. But you have to look at the salvagable meat weights if you want to know how much to plan for. See this website from the Alaska Department of Fish and Game:

http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/hunt_trap/hunting/bg_intro.cfm

It indicates you can expect 350 to 750 lbs of mostley boned out meat from a moose. I bet Crash is hauling baby moose skeletons out though, just so he can tell his buddy that he beat him off the ground "while hauling out a whole moose"! :D
 
FOR SALE (or trade for Dakota Cub wings): Extended PA-18 wings with drooped tips, extended ailerons, extended flaps. Excellent condition.

I'll fly it as is until the wings sell! If I find I like the droop tips before they sell, then I keep them.

Good comments guys. Thanks, Erik
 
drooped wing tips/extended wings

Erick - I don't have anywhere near the experience that Crash does. However, I have had two cubs that were nearly alike except for the wings. Both had vg's, and the new one is a cc with extended wings, dropoped tips, extended airleons. When loaded up to 2000lbs, + or -, the new cub seems to have MUCH more aileron control down at minimum speed, and that is very welcome in gusty crappy conditions. Landing very heavy is a much bigger project (higher stall speed, more energy to get rid of), and more likely to eat your lunch, than landing very light. Be sure to fly it as heavy as you will ever want before you get rid of the wings. You might otherwise make a big mistake.
 
moose

Sorry but have to put my 2 cents in,
Crash is right about the droopy tip being in the way and blocking the visibility and
and bad to run your head or whatever. I don't beleave it is the best tip to use.
But I do beleave in the longer wings, but that is only my thoughts. The fact is if you add
anything you are bound to pay in other ways. It may be cruise or wind handling or
many other things. Aside from all that noise Don't think for a minute Crash can't get all
4 quarters of the average moose it the back of his cub with the hide on and legs cut off
at the knee's. It's been done many times, even with a lowly little 135 cub we droopy's
 
Oh I know a cub can haul out a whole moose. I was correcting Tim's thinking (he was looking at live animal weights). I don't think it can be done for a total gross of 1760 lbs, but I believe a standard cub could handle it. I'd say an average moose field butchered into four quarters and two mis. bags with ribs, backstrap, tenderloin, neck meat, and scrapes would be, let's see (125 lbs hind quarters x 2, + 75 lbs front quarters x 2, + 50 lbs scrap bags x 2) about 500 lbs or so. And if we are talking about the "whole" moose, you have to count the antlers too. And I would say an average rack would be 50 lbs. So we are talking 550 lbs.

Average light cub (1150 lbs) + average clothed driver (200 lbs) + average low fuel (15 gallons x 6 lbs/gal = 90 lbs, say 100 lbs) + moose (550 lbs) = 2000 lbs. Yeah a standard cub could handle it, but not legally.

Now, put some extended wings on that baby Crash and let's start talking TWO MOOSE!
 
Foot in mouth

Here goe my feet in my mouth again.. I understand that the round wing tips with wood bows were designed to protect the wings from damage when they groundlooped. As far as I am concerned the round tips do nothing but look original. Which is fine. Extensions give a bit more lift, and dont hurt much. Performance with droop tips will vary with how radical they are. The Demers tips are great for lift, but are hard to see around, and on the Stearman which I bought from Ace Demers, the use of rudder caused bizzare reactions.

I think you are way ahead of yourself, but respect and appreciate your enthusiasm. Just fly it. Two IDENTICAl airplanes will never fly alike. Remember this is as much art as science. That s why its so much fun.

On another note, perhaps we should have a contest to see who has been the dumbest in punching their airplanes. I have enough scars on my hands to keep my face red with embarrassement for years.

Standing too close to the rudder, when someone decided to apply full force. Fingers in the elevators with someone in the cockpit moving the stick .Sliding down off the oily wing of the T6. :crazyeyes:

Like the ad says Just do it!

PS Be careful
 
drooped wing tips/extended wings

Erick - If you have flown a cub with standard wings much, you soon get used to the ailerons getting mushy feeling just as the sink rate is going up, and this is a great "touch" cue on landing. With the extended wings, extended ailerons, and drooped tips, you still have solid ailerons with sink rate going way up. If you are expecting soft ailerons, you can be in for a big surprise. You have to get used to visual cues, rudder feel, and elevator feel. The cub goes from just a rudder plane to an aileron and rudder plane. In my cub, you can make a standard rate turn with power off, stick all the way back, 500 to 700 fpm down, and either rudder only, or aileron only, or both. It is great to have the added aileron control, but you give up the aileron feel...softness near stall...that you may have gotten used to with a standard wing.
 
perhaps we should have a contest to see who has been the dumbest in punching their airplanes.
Click to expand...

My 18 month old son was walking across the hanger the other day when I heard a thump as he walked straight into the flap on a Pawnee and fell flat on his butt. He has know been initiated into this great fraternity. My Dad knocked himself to the ground off the aileron hinge. A buddy of mine and I were carrying a horizontal stabilizer with elevators attached off a P51 when he got his fingers stuck in between the two. No matter which way I moved the elevator he screamed. I still laugh about it to this day. He doesn't. I worked in a big shop where everytime someone walked into an airplane everyone would ask if you'd been around airplanes long. Then there was the guy who put his ear drum out on an antenna on the Hell Diver belly. I could go on and on but ya'll are probably bored already. :roll:
 
punching airplanes

Anybody else besides me got the "star T" brand from banging your forehead on a Cessna trailing edge? :)
Randy
 
I've woken up at least 3 times on the hanger floor after making the 100 foot run for the phone and missing the timing on ducking under a wing....I let the answering machine get it now!
 
Re: drooped wing tips/extended wings

jimpattensc said:
Erick - If you have flown a cub with standard wings much, you soon get used to the ailerons getting mushy feeling just as the sink rate is going up, and this is a great "touch" cue on landing. With the extended wings, extended ailerons, and drooped tips, you still have solid ailerons with sink rate going way up. If you are expecting soft ailerons, you can be in for a big surprise. You have to get used to visual cues, rudder feel, and elevator feel. The cub goes from just a rudder plane to an aileron and rudder plane. In my cub, you can make a standard rate turn with power off, stick all the way back, 500 to 700 fpm down, and either rudder only, or aileron only, or both. It is great to have the added aileron control, but you give up the aileron feel...softness near stall...that you may have gotten used to with a standard wing.
Click to expand...

That's a good comment. I have not gotten use to any cub yet, so maybe this extra aileron control near stall will not be an issue for me. What you describe sounds similar to the effects of adding VG's. I understand that VG's take out some of the mushy controls near stall speed. I guess you would have tremendous authority with extended ailerons and VG's then huh? Not a bad thing if you are use to it I would think.

Thanks, Erik
 
drooped wing tips/extended wings

Erick... I have had both BLR and Micro vg's on a standard wing cub, and the new extended wing CC has the BLR's which are now handled by CC. To me, it seems like both types of vg's take some of the suddenness out of the loss of aileron control on a standard wing, and you doo retain some aileron down around stall, but the ailerons still get mushy at just the right time to tell you you are running out of air. On the new cc, you have lots of solid aileron right into a big sink. It is great to have, if for example you come over some tall trees and the quartering headwind turns into a quartering tail wind. LOTS of aileron still on tap, which is a lot better than having to kick rudder in a hurry in a tight strip. However, you just do not have that magical early warning with muchy ailerons that you get with a standard cub. You really do have to get used to the long wing, particularly if you are really dialed in on a standard wing. It took me quite a while to really figure this out, with a bunch of really crappy landings along the way. Once I got myself re-calibrated , I got to really like the new wing, especially heavy.
 
jimpattensc said:
Erick - If you have flown a cub with standard wings much, you soon get used to the ailerons getting mushy feeling just as the sink rate is going up, and this is a great "touch" cue on landing. With the extended wings, extended ailerons, and drooped tips, you still have solid ailerons with sink rate going way up. If you are expecting soft ailerons, you can be in for a big surprise. You have to get used to visual cues, rudder feel, and elevator feel. The cub goes from just a rudder plane to an aileron and rudder plane. In my cub, you can make a standard rate turn with power off, stick all the way back, 500 to 700 fpm down, and either rudder only, or aileron only, or both. It is great to have the added aileron control, but you give up the aileron feel...softness near stall...that you may have gotten used to with a standard wing.
Click to expand...


I've been searching for an STC for extended ailerons on a PA-18-95. Can any of you point me in the right direction?
 
Erik said:
FOR SALE (or trade for Dakota Cub wings): Extended PA-18 wings with drooped tips, extended ailerons, extended flaps. Excellent condition.

I'll fly it as is until the wings sell! If I find I like the droop tips before they sell, then I keep them.

Good comments guys. Thanks, Erik
Click to expand...

I will trade you my stock wings for your wings.

PM me for details
 
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