RVBottomly
FRIEND
Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
That is common for most flight reviews I remember. Is this unusual?
Dragging it in . . .
- Thread starter bob turner
- Start date
That is common for most flight reviews I remember. Is this unusual?
So what, exactly, is the definition of a 3 degree approach path and how do I know I am at 3 degrees and not 5 degrees or 2 degrees etc? At 1,000' out what altitude should I be, above the threshold, on a 3 degree approach? I always approach with power and if the engine fails, I won't make the airstrip but what are the odds of that vs "nailing" your spot?
bob turner
Registered User
For Cubs and Stearmans, the 3 degree glide slope is a lot like dragging it in. It is too low. Power off it looks more like ten degrees, and power on behind the power curve it is probably double that.
For the 220 Stearman we are using 70 mph power off, and 60 power on. The flare is different; at 60 you are landing as soon as the flare commences. Great for spot landings.
Haven’t yet figured out the 450 Stearman - for now we are approaching at 80-90. I will get better at it. The flare is really quick - no floating.
Cubs? We practice everything except “drag it in.”
For the 220 Stearman we are using 70 mph power off, and 60 power on. The flare is different; at 60 you are landing as soon as the flare commences. Great for spot landings.
Haven’t yet figured out the 450 Stearman - for now we are approaching at 80-90. I will get better at it. The flare is really quick - no floating.
Cubs? We practice everything except “drag it in.”
RVBottomly
FRIEND
Asotin County Washington (KLWS)
3 degrees is surprisingly shallow. Rule of thumb is 300 feet descent every nautical mile.
If you are mathy, just take sine of 3 degrees and multiply by distance out. At 1000' out, you are 52 feet above the ground, assuming it is flat ground.
Formandfunction
Registered User
I have a few spots in river bottoms with soft granite sand that will flip you over if you plant the front wheels. Three point also arrives at the destination with the least energy. One of them also has whoops that make me fear a prop strike on two wheels. I'll use a wheelie if the landing requires a turn or has obstacles but I prefer a clean slow solid three.
If you are have the PAPI lights two white and two red you are on a 3 degree glide slope.
DENNY
flynlow
FRIEND
Fowler, Ks
Iam not sure. I know even on xcountry flights i am constantly scanning for suitable lz’s in case the fan stops. A habit imprinted by my cropduster cfi in primary training decades ago
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Superbill
MEMBER
Lostine Oregon
I must be in the minority, but I try to do this every time. I mostly fly from short hilltop strips surrounded by very unforgiving terrain. An engine out on final would really ruin my day if I was dragging it in.
bob turner
Registered User
I learned to fly in the early 1960s. Back then, patterns were 800’ agl, and we pulled power to idle abeam the threshold.
The idea was a power off approach, losing 1/3 of the altitude on downwind, etc. The landing could be wheel or full stall; the approach was the same. Dragging it in was not possible with this approach, unless you badly screwed it up.
Now we have 1000’ patterns and lots of Cherokees. A Cherokee apparently has to receive a clearance for any approach with base leg less than a mile out. Our busy (we’re numero uno) tower fits us in - it is called an inside pattern, with clearances for early crosswinds. When they tell us “short approach” they really mean it - we are in the flare right after wings level from base leg.
Otherwise, when we are number one for the runway it is power off at the abeam point, just like the good old days. No special clearance required. Tower loves us.
If we are going to do a power on approach, we slow up about a quarter mile out, above the normal power off path, then control the angle and flare with power.
I think you have given me enough ammunition - I am going to make proper approach paths a big deal, and award demerits for touchdown prior to the threshold.
Thanks for helping me out.
The idea was a power off approach, losing 1/3 of the altitude on downwind, etc. The landing could be wheel or full stall; the approach was the same. Dragging it in was not possible with this approach, unless you badly screwed it up.
Now we have 1000’ patterns and lots of Cherokees. A Cherokee apparently has to receive a clearance for any approach with base leg less than a mile out. Our busy (we’re numero uno) tower fits us in - it is called an inside pattern, with clearances for early crosswinds. When they tell us “short approach” they really mean it - we are in the flare right after wings level from base leg.
Otherwise, when we are number one for the runway it is power off at the abeam point, just like the good old days. No special clearance required. Tower loves us.
If we are going to do a power on approach, we slow up about a quarter mile out, above the normal power off path, then control the angle and flare with power.
I think you have given me enough ammunition - I am going to make proper approach paths a big deal, and award demerits for touchdown prior to the threshold.
Thanks for helping me out.
akavidflyer
FRIEND
Soldotna AK
You want to open their eyes and drive your point home, just hold the throttle back when they try to power up to make the runway. My instructor did that to me in the 12 and drove his point home. It's a bad feeling when you go to put the power in and it's not there and you know you won't make the runway.
It’s not unlike approaching an intersection in your car. You expect the brakes to work, and they do 99.9999% of the time, so you carry speed until a comfortable margin to slow it down without giving passengers whiplash. You get used to s—t that works. I can’t imagine how any of you drives to work, let alone flies airplanes.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Another consideration in favor of the power idle or low power approaches instead of the behind the power curve drag it in type. If the winds are gusty while approaching in the nose high mode, each gust impacts the underside of the wing creating sharp lifts and drops which require a lot of piloting activity to maintain any semblance of stability. When approaching with low power and nose low, the gusts impact the leading wing edge while minimizing the turbulent ride and the need for superior piloting skills.
Compare this to someone driving a power boat fast in rough waves. If the boat is riding bow high (aft CG) it does a lot of pounding. If the boat is running flat it will slice smoothly through the waves with minimal pounding.
Compare this to someone driving a power boat fast in rough waves. If the boat is riding bow high (aft CG) it does a lot of pounding. If the boat is running flat it will slice smoothly through the waves with minimal pounding.
akavidflyer
FRIEND
Soldotna AK
You're right, we do get used to **** that works, but you still gotta know the absolute basics.
Last year my new truck came out of the shop after I grenaded the front diff (my fault) and 3 days later when coming to the stop light the pedal went to the floor. Sometimes **** happens. After they fixed it (again) all was well till I went to launch my 28' boat a couple months later and backing down the ramp the pedal went to the floor again. When **** goes wrong its never at a good time.
Yeah, there are some approaches that I drag it in as that's the only way you are gonna get down and stopped, but I don't do that at airports and hold up traffic. I would think that when you have an instructor in the plane with you signing you off, you are not going do all the back country stuff that you would normally do, you would be a bit more "by the book" and demonstrate that you know the most BASIC of techniques and can fly "by the book". I know, there are some grizzly old instructors that will show you some tips and tricks and really show you how to get the most out of your plane, but the vast majority these days are not the kind that are able to do that, they are pavement pounders building time hoping to get to the majors and only know "by the book" flying.
This got me to thinking about a video my brother took of me landing recently. I was coming back to pick him up after doing a gear load. It was somewhat gusty - not wildly so, but probably 15 knot gusts mostly on my nose. Dragging it in flat isn't a good option here, as there's a small hill one has to drop over right before the strip (kind of hard to see in the video). Very slight downhill landing when going in this direction. You can see in the video that I have to make several adjustments in the last 10-15 seconds before landing due to winds, and you can also see that I let the tail drop a bit too early, thus the tailwheel bounced before the mains touched down. (To be clear, I am not sharing this as a testament to my piloting skills.). Are you suggesting that a lower power, steeper approach would negate the need for such control inputs? I've been trying to fly steeper approaches when practicing and using a blast of power to flatten out right before touchdown, but it's still a work in progress.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Not negate, but minimize. Use enough more airspeed to enable a smooth round out and flair. Also trim to light stick loads. Your feel sensitivity will improve. The extra speed will be used to stop the rate of sink. The landing roll will not be longer than the drag in approach method as the actual touch down speed will be the same. Learn how much extra speed is needed in order to eliminate that last blast of power. If you are too slow, you will not be able to stop the descent rate without using power. Find the sweet spot where you don't need the extra power. Practice in your plane with different loads.
It's also easier to see your landing terrain over the nose.
