Crash and Lessons Learned

[Gordon Misch]

I kinda wondered that also. My -12 sure seems much less prone to drop a wing with the Crosswinds leading edge cuff and Micro VG's (placed well forward per Jerry Burr's data and Micro's instructions). It seems it has to be significantly provoked to get it to break in a stall, but there could well be "corners" I haven't discovered yet.

I am not intending to criticize in any way whatsoever, merely thinking that probably adding the cuff and VG's to my plane was a good thing - a little more margin against gusts and errors. I recall an incident long ago where I could not get a wing to pick up, and hit the ground hard enough to bend a landing gear. Pretty scary, but nothing compared to how scary this one must have been.

 

[Greg Campbell]

No it didn't have Vg. We were going to add them. My friends Scub has Vgs and I personally think it was a big factor. The wings just hold on to lift better. Just an opinion, I have a lot less time than most of you guys and gals. When I get my plane going someday it will have Vgs. Hope this helps, Greg

 

[flynlow]

Thanks Greg, glad your experience granted you the favor to fly another day.

 

[mitmon62]

Thank you for the information! Because I have the F. Atlee Dodge fuel tanks I wanted to know what type of force produced the ruptured tank. I am grateful for the information. Mitch

 

[BradleyG]

VGs helped save my life!

 

[Gordon Misch]

I was out "playing around" yesterday, exploring the envelope of slow flight (close to coordinated, various power and flap settings). I'm sure liking the combination of cuff and VGs. That wing REALLY talks to you before departing into a full-blown stall - MUCH more forgiving than before those mods. I haven't played with uncoordinated slow flight yet. But I can see that in a worst-case situation, simply holding that stick nearly full-back will result in a hard but sorta-normal-attitude landing. Very cool. Mr. BradleyG, what you're saying here is making all kinds of sense to me. Thank you for sharing your experience!

 

[OLDCROWE]

For electrics, do your best to kill the master before going in.

If you have wing root electrical you need to practice rapidly hitting the master switch without looking so that it becomes muscle memory and I speak from recent experience.

For a while I had practiced hitting the wing root master switch (stock electrical) with my left hand (right hand on the stick and head still, still flying) and it was automatic when I REALLY needed it (including pulling the mixture on the way by) and yes I had often practiced so it was instinct and when I realized my flight was not going to end favorably and I was going to tangle with a tree the elec. was already out. No I didn't plan to bend my cub but this reaction needs to be fast and automatic.

I was inspired by Bill's talk at JC (2011) after his accident and how he believed his egress training made it automatic when it became critical and saved his bacon when he went swimming so I worked some different critical things in my regular training and it worked when the fuel hit the wing root in my case because the electrical was already cold.

Thanks Bill, I owe you a beer.

 

[RAC cubs]

going into water get out on step and jump free at 10 to50 feet,

 

[flynlow]

going into water get out on step and jump free at 10 to50 feet,

A while back I read the stats of surviving going into trees or ditching was essentially the same...90% survival chance.
I'll take those odds as compared to releasing my restraints and climbing out of a Cub at minimal controllable airspeed.

 

[bigrock]

A while back I read the stats of surviving going into trees or ditching was essentially the same...90% survival chance.
I'll take those odds as compared to releasing my restraints and climbing out of a Cub at minimal controllable airspeed.

I agree, its hard enough for me getting out while on the ground.:lol: I would hope jumping wouldnt be an option if you had a passenger.....how would you explain that one.

 

[Frequent_Flier]

A crash has energy that has to be dissipated. I think we would all support the moving a known crumple zone away from the pilots feet however remember you can't eliminate all crumple so it becomes relocated or distributed elsewhere. The questions becomes will that energy find release in some other significant frame member and what harm will that cause or will there be many little failures for a best case in crash energy dissipation. Unfortunately, without significant analysis there is really only one way to really determine where it ultimately moves to in this type of crash.

From the pictures and a little study I like the extra tube.

As a structural engineer, I appreciate the words of wisdom from OLDCROWE. Does anyone know if anyone has done a total airframe dynamic impact assessment with the X-Brace? I am not suggesting this hasnt happened - perhaps it has, but without a detailed analysis one cannot be sure that such a mod is actually beneficial to a pilot. Eliminating the risk of crushed feet could transfer the energy to some other area - like mebbe seat restraints which let go and smash the pilot against the instrument panel. Just sayin...
Mo strong aint always mo betteh

 

[behindpropellers]

As a structural engineer, I appreciate the words of wisdom from OLDCROWE. Does anyone know if anyone has done a total airframe dynamic impact assessment with the X-Brace? I am not suggesting this hasnt happened - perhaps it has, but without a detailed analysis one cannot be sure that such a mod is actually beneficial to a pilot. Eliminating the risk of crushed feet could transfer the energy to some other area - like mebbe seat restraints which let go and smash the pilot against the instrument panel. Just sayin...
Mo strong aint always mo betteh

Practical side of me says that X braces are the way to go.

 

[Frequent_Flier]

Practical side of me says that X braces are the way to go.

View attachment 8424

I suspect you meant the words gut feel or best judgement rather than practical. And there is nothing wrong with either of those. The X brace may in fact be a great addition to an airplane. All I am saying is that without a crumple analysis, it is speculation on what happens to the rest of the airplane and occupants if one is installed. I worry about liability too much I reckon..
And again - maybe someone did such an analysis.

 

[Darrel Starr]

I'm pretty sure no one made a crumple analysis, but it wouldn't take too many crashes like the one above to result in the "X" brace mod (Atlee first with one?). Anyway, I didn't take much convincing to make the mod during rebuild of our SC.

 

[skywagon8a]

Practical side of me says that X braces are the way to go.

View attachment 8424

What is the crash history of the X braced planes? Does that rear spar carry through tube still buckle? Has any one done a beef up on this tube? I can see the X tube helping but what about the rear seat passenger? Will he still get a tube in the skull?