Control stick forward position modifications on instrument panel

[Lowleveldevil]

I’m contemplating modifications to my Javron PA 18 widebody instrument panel. Does the control stick travel further forward of the dash. Do I need to shorten the control stick to pass under or does it not travel that far forward.

 

[sixmile]

if your stick is hitting the panel you have more forward stick to go. cut it down

 

[stewartb]

Get a Tosten grip, cut the stick as required to fit below the panel. The fit and tilt on the grip make it very comfortable to move through the full range.

 

[skywagon8a]

I’m contemplating modifications to my Javron PA 18 widebody instrument panel. Does the control stick travel further forward of the dash. Do I need to shorten the control stick to pass under or does it not travel that far forward.

That depends on the lower section of your panel. Is there a lower section which is bent back towards the pilot for the switches? Or is it flat? Either case, the stick while close, does not hit. It was common on Piper flat panels to place a stack of radios under the panel. Your knuckles would just touch the radios at the full forward position.

 

[spinner2]

I’m contemplating modifications to my Javron PA 18 widebody instrument panel. Does the control stick travel further forward of the dash. Do I need to shorten the control stick to pass under or does it not travel that far forward.

the solution may be as simple as adjusting the elevator cable turnbuckles.

 

[txpacer]

the solution may be as simple as adjusting the elevator cable turnbuckles.

This will allow you to keep the longer stick, which will lighten the control forces and make for a nicer flying airplane.

 

[WhiskeyMike]

This will allow you to keep the longer stick, which will lighten the control forces and make for a nicer flying airplane.

You don't want to shorten the stick if at all possible. Try sitting in position to feel where you'd like it to be according to the length of your arms. One solution we did on a restricted category airplane was to cut and weld so that the top of the stick was moved back - a bit like an Aeronca Champ. You could even bend the stick back and weld the top back on. Worked great and you can install a stick grip at the angle you prefer. Shorter might be OK, but it felt to me like sitting high with a shorter stick made it difficult on pitch change.

While we're on the subject of cockpit and pilot comfort/convenience, I always avoided putting radios directly under the panel on either side. Seems like they would damage your knee caps in an incident.

 

[Lowleveldevil]

That depends on the lower section of your panel. Is there a lower section which is bent back towards the pilot for the switches? Or is it flat? Either case, the stick while close, does not hit. It was common on Piper flat panels to place a stack of radios under the panel. Your knuckles would just touch the radios at the full forward position.

that’s exactly the info I was looking for if I extend my flat panel a bit lower I should be able to make the panel lower and fit a bit more expensive Garmin products I’ll probably never use . And still get full travel on elevator without hitting dash . I appreciate your input thank you.

 

[skywagon8a]

Don't forget the tubing across the fuselage and the diagonal pieces behind the panel. Allow for the slope of the wrap around cowl. Make a cardboard template of the panel. Then make cardboard instruments and radios adding enough for a little space between them behind the panel. Move them around to suit your taste. Check there will be no interference behind the panel. You may be surprised how much you can fit in the panel without extending down.

This is a widebody panel. The GPS has very little depth but there is room for a full sized radio there.

 

[Lowleveldevil]

Thank you so much SW you have really helped my project with this info. Much appreciated

 

[Dog]

I like the Atlee longer Panel and cut it down to clear the stick -- do a 90 and a 45 degree bend on the bottom to have a smooth edge.

Just enough extra space over the stock Panel but still the stock panel look.

Now build the panel with the available space -- tons of room for what a cub needs.

If you need more space you got the wrong plane.8)

Don't ever cut the stick you loose the cub feel -- feels wrong to me anyway.

 

[Lowleveldevil]

Thankyou Dog do you have any photos of this panel as I don’t have any cubs near where I live.

 

[Mr. Ed]

This is what I did. I angled the panel (top of panel forward) to give a more direst view of the Dynon screen. I would not recommend you do that. It creates more issues with tube clearance behind the panel. I do like the angled panel bottom for the switches. My stick is angled forward at the top to make the grip a little more comfortable. It clears the panel bottom ok.

 

[stewartb]

My own grip height is set to what’s comfortable for my arm and wrist while in the seat. It happens to fit under the panel, which is good because it travels about 4” forward of the bottom edge. The only times I use that travel are for taking off or holding the tail up after landing, and in both scenarios my posture is tall and forward so the arm reach is completely natural. Balance the comfort and function. For me a tall stick is not advantageous or comfortable. I’ve used simple ball tops and grip handle. I prefer the grip. Wrist position matters.

 

[fishhook]

I angled my panel forward like some of the javrons, its 15 something inches If I recall from firewall to top of panel. Things I have ran into, g5 is tipped to much so it requires an angled shim to square it up, deep instruments need offset to center or above below the tubes, and defroster tubes come mighty close to the back of the instruments. Using a longer windshield would help that, to get the windshield up where they used to be (long story about why my windshield is shorter than others thanks to lp aero). Panel height is straight off the drawings for a later cub, about 1 something inches below the mounting screws. Still fits g3x/695/aera 760s just fine. G5, and stock length stick clears it barely with the electric trim switch. If I did it again, longer windshield like the early cubs, keep the panel tipped, make bottom of panel flush with tubes(like the early cubs or pa11), and make a square kick out to slide the glass all the way up to the v brace tubes. That way your glass is right below the nosebowl in the line of sight. More legroom, less issues. Seen that with an experimental and will be doing that next time.

 

[skywagon8a]

Using a longer windshield would help that, to get the windshield up where they used to be (long story about why my windshield is shorter than others thanks to lp aero).... If I did it again, longer windshield like the early cubs,

Since you mentioned windshield. Try to get one which has more length from lower front to the top. Keep the lower edge as far forward as possible. Thus the slope will be flatter (more swept back) producing less aerodynamic drag. One of the higher drag locations of the airframe is at the junction of the windshield to the top of the boot cowl. That's why Piper locates the fresh air vent there. The pressure is higher.

 

[rv6ator]

The original aluminum panel I designed for the Javron had an extended bottom to accomodate a 10"PFD, however there was only about 1/4" of clearance from the stick using Ray Allen foam grips w/PTT. Additionally, pilots leg clearance was a little close wearing winter flying clothes. I redesigned a new panel out of carbon Fiber eliminating the lowered section and moving a few things around. Good clearance and very strong.

 

[DENNY]

Still dark out and I got me some coffee so just some general pontification. My panel has all the switches on the bottom like Skywagons. So far I have managed to kick 3 of the switches off getting in and out with Bunny Boots happens usually when I have some Sasquatch in the back and I put my seat full forward or I am in a hurry so I am going to try putting them somewhere else next time. You can easily push the center of the panel l up much higher and it will not hurt the view over the nose at all. It won't have that typical cub look but if you need more room something to think about. Keeping GPS and flight instruments as high as possible is important if you are doing low level flight in bad weather. If possible I would always surface mount the gps and push it all the way up to or through the v brace gap it makes a world of difference when you are trying to navigate and avoid terrain/other aircraft. I am not sure how far up you could get a big screen but something to think about. As far as cutting the stick I have flown a cub with a shorter stick and you do notice the heavy feel, it only takes few hours and you get used to it, the plane flys just fine. No right or wrong just things to think about.
DENNY

 

[Lowleveldevil]

Thank you very much greatly appreciated

 

[KJC]

You don’t need to cut the stick down. You need to adjust the elevator turnbuckles so when the stick is just about to touch the panel, you get 15 degrees +/-2 degrees. You’ll need:

A digital smart level with a “zero” calibration
A saw horse or barrel to put the tail on
safety wire

Start by finding the neutral position of the elevator trim with your smart level. It has a total of approximately 6 1/2 degrees travel,so find the neutral of 2.5 up and 4 down.

Adjust the elevator turnbuckles by tightening one and loosening the other so you have so you have 15 degrees down elevator as the stick just contacts the panel.

Re-safety the turnbuckles and button up the inspection covers.

This is assuming that Jay has it set up like a stock certified Cub and the cables are of the proper length. I suspect if they came from Javeron they are the right length.

 

[skywagon8a]

You don’t need to cut the stick down. You need to adjust the elevator turnbuckles so when the stick is just about to touch the panel, you get 15 degrees +/-2 degrees. You’ll need:

A digital smart level with a “zero” calibration
A saw horse or barrel to put the tail on
safety wire

Start by finding the neutral position of the elevator trim with your smart level. It has a total of approximately 6 1/2 degrees travel,so find the neutral of 2.5 up and 4 down.

Adjust the elevator turnbuckles by tightening one and loosening the other so you have so you have 15 degrees down elevator as the stick just contacts the panel.

Re-safety the turnbuckles and button up the inspection covers.

This is assuming that Jay has it set up like a stock certified Cub and the cables are of the proper length. I suspect if they came from Javeron they are the right length.

View attachment 67593

Why go through all that to set the stick position? The angles of the surfaces are set in the tail. The turnbuckles only set the position of the stick in relation to the surfaces.

 

[KJC]

Sure, you could technically set the stab trim at any position, including the up/down limits of travel and theoretically accomplish the same thing. However I’ve found it works best when you’re not fighting the bungee spring. I’ve done this numerous times and this is the easiest way to get the right outcome. Also, finding the neutral on the elevator trim with a digital level takes all of what,…. 90 seconds?

 

[skywagon8a]

Sure, you could technically set the stab trim at any position, including the up/down limits of travel and theoretically accomplish the same thing. However I’ve found it works best when you’re not fighting the bungee spring. I’ve done this numerous times and this is the easiest way to get the right outcome. Also, finding the neutral on the elevator trim with a digital level takes all of what,…. 90 seconds?

You missed the point. Lowleveldevil was asking about the stick hitting the panel. Adjusting the turnbuckles only moves the relationship of the stick to the elevators.

 

[Mr. Ed]

Basic question: If you adjust the stick position to limit its forward travel so as to not go beneath the instrument panel you are also adjusting the neutral position of the stick. Since you still need full travel in both directions your full aft stick position will be further aft. Does this cause interference issues with the seat or occupant when the seat is in a forward position?

 

[skywagon8a]

Basic question: If you adjust the stick position to limit its forward travel so as to not go beneath the instrument panel you are also adjusting the neutral position of the stick. Since you still need full travel in both directions your full aft stick position will be further aft. Does this cause interference issues with the seat or occupant when the seat is in a forward position?

That depends upon the size and shape of the occupant. ;-)

 

[KJC]

You missed the point. Lowleveldevil was asking about the stick hitting the panel. Adjusting the turnbuckles only moves the relationship of the stick to the elevators.

I believe I understood the point quite well. The OP would like to have full travel of the elevators, nose down without the stick hitting the panel. Adjusting the turnbuckles not only moves the relationship of the stick to the elevators, it also moves the stick position in relation to the panel. If you were to hold the elevator firmly so it doesn’t move and adjust the turnbuckles, the stick would move for and aft. Adjusting one thing changes elevator position in relation to the stick and stick position relative to the panel.

Thre is a very narrow sweet spot where you get full deflection in both directions and not have the stick hit the panel when you are full nose down.

 

[skywagon8a]

I believe I understood the point quite well. The OP would like to have full travel of the elevators, nose down without the stick hitting the panel. Adjusting the turnbuckles not only moves the relationship of the stick to the elevators, it also moves the stick position in relation to the panel. If you were to hold the elevator firmly so it doesn’t move and adjust the turnbuckles, the stick would move for and aft. Adjusting one thing changes elevator position in relation to the stick and stick position relative to the panel.

Thre is a very narrow sweet spot where you get full deflection in both directions and not have the stick hit the panel when you are full nose down.

Now you have it.