Cessna missing logs 20 yrs ago

[Cardiff Kook]

I just need to ask: Is this gap in log books verified? As in a gap in time in the airframe logs but the same time span shows entries in the prop and engine logs? Is that correct? I'm asking because I have seen aircraft sit for many, many years without generating an entry in any logs. That would be different than just missing some maintenance entries.

Web

Yes- I believe that is correct. A log book was lost by the fbo- apparently they made an entry indicating as much when it happened. I will get my hands on the entry.

This plane has no past damage as verified by inspection (as much as that can be done.)

 

[Cardiff Kook]

First is the bank. Banks ask very simple and basic questions. Is it a damage free complete log airplane? If not, the amount the valuation is dinged is their interpretation.

PJJ

Very informative post above, Paul. Thanks.

What would define "damage free?" Is that any damage history, or damage unrepaired? Most of the 185's I have looked at have had a ground loop at some point.

 

[frequent_flyer]

Most of the 185's I have looked at have had a ground loop at some point.

I rode through two ground loops in an Aeronca Chief with zero damage. A partner ground looped it later and the wing strut hit an electrical box between the runway and taxiway and broke one or both spars. Insurance wrote it off. Happy to say it was restored later and I think it is still flying.

"Ground loop" doesn't tell you much about the severity of the event or the damage, if any, that resulted from it.

 

[mvivion]

Very informative post above, Paul. Thanks.

What would define "damage free?" Is that any damage history, or damage unrepaired? Most of the 185's I have looked at have had a ground loop at some point.

There is “damage” and “damage history”. Damage is one thing. Damage which has been properly repaired AND documented may effect the sale price some, but would not cause me to run. Detected damage that was repaired but not properly documented….I’d be running away fast.

Finally current damage that hasn’t been touched affects value, but you need to talk to your mechanic to find out whether to run.

MTV

 

[bob turner]

Ground loops in a 180 are not quite as benign as those in a Chief.

 

[mvivion]

Ground loops in a 180 are not quite as benign as those in a Chief.

True dat…….and harder to detect.

MTV

 

[Gordon Misch]

Mornin' Kook - Dunno if you already have a solid Cessna IA lined up to inspect. This man in Bend is very experienced in the 180 line, and is highly recommended by a good friend of mine who is a 180 owner. John Bentley, Bentley Air 541-318-8604. https://www.bentleyair.com/Current-projects.htm?m=6&s=771

 

[Cardiff Kook]

Mornin' Kook - Dunno if you already have a solid Cessna IA lined up to inspect. This man in Bend is very experienced in the 180 line, and is highly recommended by a good friend of mine who is a 180 owner. John Bentley, Bentley Air 541-318-8604. https://www.bentleyair.com/Current-projects.htm?m=6&s=771

Thats my guy! Ha. Talked to him last night.

At least I am doing one thing right!

 

[stewartb]

I’d make sure the guy doing the inspection is not someone who maintains the plane.

 

[Cardiff Kook]

I’d make sure the guy doing the inspection is not someone who maintains the plane.

Did that too.

Im on a roll today.

 

[aktango58]

Thats my guy! Ha. Talked to him last night.

At least I am doing one thing right!

I don't know eastern Oregon folks much, but I will advise that whomever you decide to do the Pre-buy is NOT the people that have been doing the maintenance. You want FRESH eyes on anything you are looking to buy. You want a mechanic with the desire to show you all the tings wrong with the plane, logs, and history! Only then can you make an informed decision.

My old Director of Maintenance has moved to western Montana now, at Ruby Valley Aviation in Twin Bridges. He not only kept our 16,000 hour 185 flying in very safe condition, he was out in front of problems areas and always seemed to have the parts on hand and replaced BEFORE she would break. The longest that plane was down except for pilot induced major float damage, (not me), was over night. They even did a full tear down and paint job one winter!

The investment of a 185 today makes it worth flying in a really good mechanic from anywhere you can find one. $2,000-$5,000 in a pre-buy and finding a $10,000 repair is needed BEFORE you buy is a good investment.

Best of luck, and I hope you find this to be the most wonderful plane out there!

P.S. as far as pipeline planes- them and camera ships seem to get long hours at constant power settings and limited landings. In other words: very low stress on the airframes and engines. Landings are harder on planes than flying, especially if you are bouncing or landing a little crosswise.

 

[Cardiff Kook]

Wait- you guys are still here

OP here. I got the details.

Engine and prop logs complete.

Airframe logs have 260 of 7000 hrs missing:

1979-1992- Complete logs- 5600 hrs- plane based in Canada
1992-2002- US logs begin w 1992. 2002 current log book lost by maintenance shop, noted in logs - log book that went missing had 260 hrs over 10 years. All this would have been US time
2002-2022- complete logs over this time covering 1000 hrs

So we have 260 hrs missing of 7000 hrs total time. The last 1000 hrs of airframe are accounted for.

When logs lost the following was entered by the mechanic:

"Completed records research due to missing logbooks from Dec 1992 to July 2002.
1. Airworthiness Directives complied with and research completed. See new A.D. listing this date.
2. 337 Records reviewed. No damage history noted during this period of time.
3. Airframe total time and engine total time and time since overhaul researched and noted this date."


Does this provide any relevant information for me?

 

[cubflier]

Does this provide any relevant information for me?

No.

Jerry

 

[BC12D-4-85]

I had a plane that had a mechanic's lien applied. New airframe log was started later in life (lien'er kept the old book I assume) and the originator of the new book got a Notary to stamp that it was....whatever. Plane flew on despite any paperwork. Same for my current Taylorcraft....no lien but some logs over 33 owners in 81 years gone disappeared. Still flies but not an expensive Cessna on a loan either.

If it bothered me I'd have the FAA issue a new Certificate of Airworthiness via a Conformity Inspection.

Gary

 

[dgapilot]

Wait- you guys are still here

OP here. I got the details.

Engine and prop logs complete.

Airframe logs have 260 of 7000 hrs missing:

1979-1992- Complete logs- 5600 hrs- plane based in Canada
1992-2002- US logs begin w 1992. 2002 current log book lost by maintenance shop, noted in logs - log book that went missing had 260 hrs over 10 years. All this would have been US time
2002-2022- complete logs over this time covering 1000 hrs

So we have 260 hrs missing of 7000 hrs total time. The last 1000 hrs of airframe are accounted for.

When logs lost the following was entered by the mechanic:

"Completed records research due to missing logbooks from Dec 1992 to July 2002.
1. Airworthiness Directives complied with and research completed. See new A.D. listing this date.
2. 337 Records reviewed. No damage history noted during this period of time.
3. Airframe total time and engine total time and time since overhaul researched and noted this date."


Does this provide any relevant information for me?

Only if you have all the 337s and complete AD listing showing date and time of compliance and method of compliance with a signature and certificate number for who did it. Of course that listing should be updated each annual since 2002.

 

[bob turner]

I agree - the gap shouldn't be all that important, but you need the documents Dave outlines. I can't see this minor missing log impacting the resale value.

When folks say "missing logs" I think what they mean is the new logbooks start in, say, 2010, with the statement "Total time estimated 3000 hours." While you can still get away with that, it really doesn't comport with the regs. And even if there is an accurate total time stated, with all the caveats you mention, if all the logbooks are missing prior to, say 2010, then you are totally legal and looking at that 20% hit on value.

Not saying that is rational - in my other hobby, an original box is meaningful to many, and if it is factory sealed it could mean big bucks. Totally irrational, in my opinion. If you like the aircraft, take that missing log with a grain of salt - maybe knock 5% off whatever price is fair - and press on. But again, you need a thousand hours in that Cub to be totally ready for the big Cessna. Take your time.

 

[hotrod180]

....But again, you need a thousand hours in that Cub to be totally ready for the big Cessna. Take your time.

I disagree.
Other than the basics of tailwheel flying, the Cub & the Skywagon are two different airplanes.
IMHO a thousand hours in the Cub won't get you "totally ready" for the Cessna.
Just time in the Cessna will.
I wouldn't sweat "being ready"......
just plan on getting some quality dual first, with some learning curve solo time after that.

 

[RedOwlAirfield]

I wouldn't sweat "being ready"......
just plan on getting some quality dual first, with some learning curve solo time after that.

I concur. And I have just done this. I just bought a Cessna 180, took a bunch of dual and am still working on it solo. I get better everyday, but it will take a while - and I had bunches of time in a Cessna 140 before this - and a good bit of time in Cubs - but good facility with either. Time in the simpler airplanes is good, but does not necessarily equate to an equal level of accomplishment in the big plane. Only flying the big plane is going to do that for you. But do the dual for sure. It was very valuable in my case. At least now I can learn safely.

I would also add get dual from someone you have a good relationship with and work well with. I first took some dual with the former owner's CFI. While he's a good guy and clearly an excellent pilot, we just didn't click and I was getting nowhere. Maybe I'm just hard to get along with. I had him move the airplane to my old home drome and flew with my long time CFI. He had much less 180 time but was a much more effective instructor for me. Long story short, even the world's greatest instructor is no good if he can't find a way to communicate to you. NOTE - Neither instructor nor student need be "at fault" in this scenario. Some times people just don't gel well with some other people. Nobody's bad or incompetent - just different.

 

[BC12D-4-85]

I transitioned into Skywagons first via float flying. Made it easier to harness the things even though I had lots of smaller taildragger plus some Beaver experience. By the time conventional gear was needed I had the rest of that particular Cessna airplane figured out. I snuck in via the back door I guess.

Gary

 

[180Marty]

My friend had a Cessna 170 that his wife flew. It was wrecked by another pilot doing powerline patrol so my friend bought a 1955 180. His wife never got the hang of the 180.