Cessna 180 lack of Vacuum system question

[stewartb]

The Dynon solution looks like an afterthought. What do you guys prefer as a forethought solution? TSO conventional gyro? TSO digital gyro like RC Allen offers (including in 2 1/4")? Non-TSO conventional gyro? Non-TSO digitals like TruTrak at half the cost of the RC Allen TSO equivalent? How about MGL's digital version thats about 20% of what the TruTrak costs? Which one do you trust your life with?

My 180s attitude gyro has lived its entire life outdoors in Alaska and was overhauled once after 35 years when I did my panel reno. Its been exceptionally reliable. I can't say the same for any Garmin portable I've owned, which is why I'll add a panel AH in my next plane..... For what that's worth.

RC Allen's digital can have the skid ball included. Bye bye turn and bank or turn coordinator- http://www.kellymfg.com/images/RCA2600 information.pdf

TruTrak equiv with digital ground track- http://www.trutrakap.com/product/adi/

 

[mvivion]

I'm curious if the reason you don't consider the Dynon D2 a "real" instrument is because it's not certified, or because it's a portable? I know several people with Dynon equipment in their panel, with a couple of them that's the only flight instruments they have, and they are all very satisfied with them. I think Dynon produced the D1 & the later D2 portables to satisfy a need for 1) something that you can move from airplane to airplane, and 2) something that you can install in a certified airplane. I believe that the D2 is manufactured to & performs to the same standards as Dynon's panel-mount units, and is a "real instrument" as per their claims. Personally I have my doubts about a cellphone app for this type of instrumentation, I would have more faith in a purpose-built device like the D2 than an iPhone app, just like I have more faith in the accuracy of a real, purpose-built smart level than I do a smart-level app on an iPhone. But judging from these posts apparently some others are fine with them.
I think if a guy was starting from scratch for VFR flight, whether for a new panel or an add-on to an existing one, he'd do well to install a D2 instead of the usual turn coordinator or T&B. The TC / T&B will cost somewhere between $500 and $1000, a D2 costs a grand & does so much more. A certified RC Allen 2600 electronic horizon would be great but at $2600 and up it's not even in the same city, let alone the same ballpark. Remember this is for VFR flight, so it's a "nice to have" item NOT a necessity.

First of all, we're NOT talking about VFR flight. I was under the impression that the OP was describing a "Get out of the goo" kind of option. I think that relying on that small portable, non certified instrument for that task is sketchy, and it wouldn't be my choice. There are a lot of things that have to be demonstrated by certified instrumentation that non certified aren't NECESSARILY subjected to. Does Dynon put this little battery powered instrument through some of the same tests? Who knows? I don't, so I wouldn't choose to use that device for that purpose. Frankly, you may be better off without an attitude instrument, in that you might be less willing to get yourself in that deep in the first place. Maybe.

But, a couple other points....you cannot legally install a non certified panel mounted instrument (like the Dynon panel mounted units) in a certified airplane, UNLESS you can get a field approval.....good luck with that.

And, mghallen, I ran a Cessna 185 for ~ 3500 hours, based in FAI, and for seven years, that airplane parked outside in all conditions. I had a couple of vacuum pump failures, but only one attitude gyro rolled over......

But, in any case, I'd strongly suggest any pilots thinking that some of these "solutions", certified or non certified will get them out of a real VMC into IMC episode get some dual instruction under the hood with a safety pilot with that rig. See how well it actually works, and understand that the real thing will be twenty or thirty times as stressful and difficult.

Finally, in my experience, the RC Allen electric attitude gyros (the electrically powered mechanical ones, that is) are absolute junk. What Gordon described is the beginning of one of those things failing. I would NEVER buy another one of those.

MTV

 

[stewartb]

in my experience, the RC Allen electric attitude gyros (the electrically powered mechanical ones, that is) are absolute junk. What Gordon described is the beginning of one of those things failing. I would NEVER buy another one of those.

How many did you buy and subsequently have fail to arrive at this opinion? What as the reason for the failure? I know several guys who've had perfect performance with them and had considered one in my next plane. More info, please.

 

[mvivion]

How many did you buy and subsequently have fail to arrive at this opinion? What as the reason for the failure? I know several guys who've had perfect performance with them and had considered one in my next plane. More info, please.

Three that I have specific direct knowledge of, only one in my personal airplane. These were all in airplanes equipped with O-360 Lycomings, which aren't exactly the smoothest around. I have heard of a couple others in similar airplanes.

All three failed in less than 100 hours. For an expensive piece of certified instrumentation, that is unacceptable to me. Your mileage may vary.

MTV

 

[stewartb]

Thanks. I was favoring the 2 1/4" digital model anyway.

Still looking non-TSO alternative pireps.

 

[Gordon Misch]

For clarification, mine is the 3" digital model. It isn't failing, that's just the way it is. I had considerable discussion with the factory reps about it. They sent me a new one and it is the same. The discrepancy on rollout to level flight isn't huge, perhaps 3 degrees. But it is enough to be disconcerting. I have played around with it a lot, comparing to a good visual "real" horizon and it always eventually settles to a correct indication, but if one were to follow it exclusively, one would fly a little bit uncoordinated for a short time.

 

[stewartb]

Interesting. I see the factory sets the panel tilt. I assume that was addressed? I really like the 2 1/4" digital with inclinometer. I'm leaning towards that for my EX project at the moment.

 

[FdxLou]

Stewart

I've done a bit of research and will be putting the GRT Mini-GA Portable EFIS in my 180 panel upgrade. (grtavionics.com) Simple AND legal!
Looks like their "Mini" products would be a good standby PFD for a full on glass panel in a non-certified as well.

Lou

 

[hotrod180]

First of all, we're NOT talking about VFR flight. I was under the impression that the OP was describing a "Get out of the goo" kind of option..........
But, a couple other points....you cannot legally install a non certified panel mounted instrument (like the Dynon panel mounted units) in a certified airplane, UNLESS you can get a field approval.....good luck with that..........
But, in any case, I'd strongly suggest any pilots thinking that some of these "solutions", certified or non certified will get them out of a real VMC into IMC episode get some dual instruction under the hood with a safety pilot with that rig. See how well it actually works, and understand that the real thing will be twenty or thirty times as stressful and difficult. .........

First of all, from post #1:
"I am looking for a nice 180 and saw a 67 model year listed and have a question about its panel.
There is no attitude indicator installed. When I asked the owner he said "It came from the factory without a vacuum system so no attitude indicator and we have no need for one for the type of flying we do". That sounds very odd to me. Has anyone ever heard of that before?"
That question evolved (as threads tend to do) into a discussion about attitude indicating instrument options.

Secondly, in my case anyway, I am NOT talking about IFR flight. I'm talking about VFR flights when you may get into a situation when you need some attitude help-- not necessarily flying into the clouds, but maybe haze, smoke, dark moonless night, whatever. I'm not about to go charging off into the clouds, artificial horizon or not, but sometimes **** happens.

I agree that you cannot just install a non-certified instrument without some sort of field approval, which as you point out might be hard to get. Dynon, GRT, TruTrack all make nice panel-mount stuff, but for experimental use only. Hence the attraction of a so-called "portable" device, such as the Dynon D2 or the GRT Mini. Just because something's "portable" doesn't necessarily mean that it's not a quality product-- for example, Garmin has produced a whole slew of affordable portable GPS's over the years which seem to work every bit as well as their sometimes-very-expensive panel mount models.

I also agree with you 100% (if not more) that if someone expects their artificial horizon (or whatever) to get them out of a bind, they'd better be up to speed (current and proficient) in flying on that instrument. That means rounding up a safety pilot and a pair of foggles and getting some hood time.... before that VFR-gone-bad situation. But proficient or not, if he doesn't have that horizon (or whatever) he can't get in that practice and it sure as hell can't save his ass.

 

[mghallen]

MTV,
Sorry, but I have found that vac. pumps are typically fairly reliable, very much so when they are thrown in the garbage every 4-6 months and replaced. Only ones I have ever fail have been pressure pumps that lived outside. Gyros on the other hand..well absolute junk. Granted most of those were Honeywell Flight Directors. Typically the all electronic EFIS ones are the worst. I stand by my position. A Ipad and Turn and Bank or an Dynon D1/2 is a perfectly good and safe compromise for a vac. system.

I have noticed there are three groups of posts here, 135 type guys who do not trust gyros, Private guys with little IFR moxie, and Folks with unlimited budgets. That may sound harsh but tough. I think it is important to understand your abilities, your budget, and your desires into account in your selection.

 

[hotrod180]

I'm in the low moxie / no money group.

 

[skywagon8a]

Good Morning everyone and a Very Merry Christmas,

I am looking for a nice 180 and saw a 67 model year listed and have a question about its panel.

There is no attitude indicator installed. When I asked the owner he said "It came from the factory without a vacuum system so no attitude indicator and we have no need for one for the type of flying we do"

That sounds very odd to me. Has anyone ever heard of that before?

Tom

Back to the original question. YES, A vacuum system with the associated instruments was a factory option, as were dual controls, seats other than the pilot's seat, etc., etc. A buyer could configure a new 180/185 pretty much any way he wanted it. You would not be happy with a 180/185 which came from the factory without any options. You could even get them without paint, for more money. Yes they charged extra for leaving the paint off.

 

[mghallen]

No money group 1st, the wife is in the unlimited budget, and the dog has no moxie.

 

[Scooter7779h]

Delivered a brand new 185, 7565H from Pompano Beach Florida factory to Anchorage with no radios in 1976. No hand-held either in those days. Chart on knee.

 

[Charlie Longley]

Thank you , I have seen those articles. The first one I believe is a little deceptive in that I remember seeing an independent study with the same 550 case but it was in a high humidity chamber not a hanger.
My concern is more related to the cam and lifters. which can be very expensive. If the cam gets any spalling or corrosion that leads to splitting the case and all the expense involved, don't ask I know.
I am wondering if one of those borescope cameras can look at the lobes/lifters from the oil filler hole or would a jug need to be pulled?
I may fly out to look at it next month after talking to the mechanic first.
I am getting off the subject but I designed and built a silica gel engine dehydrating system for my current C-90 powered cub that works very well.

Again thank you all for the input.

Tom

I have quite a bit of experience maintaining big bore Continentals. Typically you don't have any problems with the cam/ lifters as they're on the bottom of the engine and get plenty of oil. You can have your mechanic pull the lifters relatively easy with out splitting the case and look at the cam (6-8 hours of labor). I wouldn't even do that until you've done an oil change and cut/ inspected the filter with an oil analysis. Usually it's valve issues with an occasional broken ring or bad break in.

Generally Lycoming's are opposite where there's rarely any problems with the cylinders but cam spalling can happen if the engine sits. (Cam is on the top of the engine.)

My 2 cents
Charlie

 

[jliltd]

I installed a Sandia SAI-340 in my Husky. My Husky is VFR but came with a vacuum system, including pump, regulator, filter hoses, suction gauge and RCA vacuum Attitude Indicator. I removed all those items and the accessory drive gear and then installed the Quattro in the spot vacated by the vacuum AI. I loved saving the weight but I also liked having a fully FAA Approved (primary replacement) attitude, altitude, altimeter and slip indicator provided with the Quattro.

Here is a thread showing the install and subsequent flight:

http://flyhusky.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1772

In reality the Quattro would be more applicable to installations that need a certified backup or primary AI for IFR work. It's ideal for that (say goodbye to your vacuum system if you put in an Aspen and the like in an IFR configuration). That is what I am going to do with my Cessna 180. Keep it IFR while removing the vacuum system and installing a Quattro. This works for me because my autopilot references the electric turn coordinator and I have an electric King HSI so there are no other vacuum instruments other than the original AI.

Meanwhile, I ordered the GRT Mini-GA to try in another airplane. Thankfully the other aircraft already has a hole vacated for the OAT probe so I ordered that option too. I also sprung for the remote magnetometer and will install it with velcro in a fairly magnetic free area of the airframe.

Jim, the "early adopter"

The Dynon solution looks like an afterthought. What do you guys prefer as a forethought solution? TSO conventional gyro? TSO digital gyro like RC Allen offers (including in 2 1/4")? Non-TSO conventional gyro? Non-TSO digitals like TruTrak at half the cost of the RC Allen TSO equivalent? How about MGL's digital version thats about 20% of what the TruTrak costs? Which one do you trust your life with?

My 180s attitude gyro has lived its entire life outdoors in Alaska and was overhauled once after 35 years when I did my panel reno. Its been exceptionally reliable. I can't say the same for any Garmin portable I've owned, which is why I'll add a panel AH in my next plane..... For what that's worth.

RC Allen's digital can have the skid ball included. Bye bye turn and bank or turn coordinator- http://www.kellymfg.com/images/RCA2600 information.pdf

TruTrak equiv with digital ground track- http://www.trutrakap.com/product/adi/

 

[FdxLou]

Jim
i would be interested in hearing where you choose to Velcro your magnetometer in the 180. I am redoing my 180 with a Mini GA as well and haven't found a suitable location where I can temporarily mount the magnetometer. Was hoping the belly would work, but the steel elevator cables are too close.
Lou

 

[wireweinie]

You can mount a flux valve anywhere it will be free of any magnetic fields. This means any wires carrying high current and any ferrous metals, as they can become magnetised. Very few aircraft have the option of a mounting location in the fuselage. To many steel cables and sometimes high current wiring, (think Cessna with the rear mounted battery). That leaves the wings. Traditionally Cubs mounted the flux valve outboard of the aileron cables and aft of the main spar. This kept it away from steel and the nav and strobe wiring that's routed along the spar. The same general location will work for a Cessna, too. Make an inspection hole (with NO steel hardware) mount the flux valve (once again, NO steel hardware) and route the wires. The flux valve is incredibly sensitive to magnetic fields but the wiring (always shielded) does not seem sensitive at all.

Can't stress enough, NO steel hardware for the flux valve or anything near it. You'd be amazed at the number of installations I've seen with steel screws or nutplates. Brass and aluminum are your friends here.

Web

 

[skywagon8a]

Lou,
I had a friend who was in the compass manufacturing business. He told me to mount the flux valve out in the wing on my 185. It is mounted on an existing inspection plate outboard of the lift strut, midway to the tip in the right wing leading edge. The screws were changed to stainless. The ground wire was twisted around the other wires back to the inboard end of the wing where it is grounded. As I recall he said a minimum of four feet for the twist of the ground wire. This canceled out any electrical interference. Works great.