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Can an Avionics Repair Station sign off work done on our Experimental Aircraft

gdafoe

FRIEND
Castle Well Airpark SE of Wickenburg AZ
I have been informed recently that in order for a Certified Avionics Repair Station to sign off work on aircraft with a Experimental Airworthiness Certificate the operation limitations for that aircraft has to specifically allow a certified repair station to do the work. (See FAA 8900.1 Volume 2, chapter 11, section 6.E) Operating Limitations is not one of the documents required for an Airworthiness Certificate according to what I find in https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ultralights/amateur_built/aw/
Any help understanding this would be appreciated.
 
This is the paragraph they are concerned about. (See FAA 8900.1 Volume 2, chapter 11, section 6.E) Experimental aircraft operating limitations may contain a provision that certain maintenance or inspections may be performed by a certificated repair station. A repair station may perform such work in accordance with the provisions of the limitations issued for the aircraft. Any work performed by a repair station in accordance with the limitation issued to the aircraft may satisfy the requirements of the limitations, but the repair station is not exercising certificate privilege when it applies its certificate number to any work for which part 43 does not apply.

The work in question is doing a Biennial Certification on a transponder. Again they are a Certified Avionic Repair Station.

Reading through my Experimental Operating Limitation both Phase 1 and Phase 2 documents issued by the Scottsdale FSDO, there are just four paragraphs that talk at all about inspections and recording of same. The verbiage only relates to the aircraft and instruments markings, note that nothing talks about the engine or avionics.
 
Typical operating limitations do not bar certified repair stations from doing work on experimental amateur-built aircraft. Such a prohibition makes absolutely no sense. A certified repair station endorsement is needed to meet the requirements for operating a transponder in controlled airspace. It is also necessary for operating IFR (pitot/static check). These operations are specifically allowed in most operating limitations if the aircraft is properly equipped. You can only be properly equipped if your equipment has been certified by an appropriate repair station.

Your comment about operating limitations not being a required document for an airworthiness certificate is a bit off the mark. It is not a document required for an airworthiness certificate; it is rather part of the airworthiness certificate. In fact, in the new Order 8130.2J the operating limitations and the airworthiness certificate have been combined into a single document. In any case it is a required document that must be in the plane at all timed for it to be airworthy.
 
Gdafoe
Who informed you?

I have been informed recently that in order for a Certified Avionics Repair Station to sign off work on aircraft with a Experimental Airworthiness Certificate the operation limitations for that aircraft has to specifically allow a certified repair station to do the work
?
DENNY
 
The repair station that has done mine since I finished the build. They prefer that I don't name them at this time. They are working on correcting the past errors. I am of the opinion that there are not past errors to correct. Still have not found out if this came from their chief inspector (FSDO) or there own research. I have talked to two different people at EAA and they don't think there is an issue but they have now contacted the person responsible for this area of the regs in Washington. We will see what happens there.
 
The repair station is certifying that the transponder/encoder/altimeter meet specs. It has nothing to do with the aircraft they are mounted in.

Web
 
If your repair station is right (I don't think they are), that means pretty much every experimental amateur built aircraft in the U.S. with an engine driven charge system is an outlaw.
 
The repair station is certifying that the transponder/encoder/altimeter meet specs. It has nothing to do with the aircraft they are mounted in.

Web

i would agree with Web The repair station is not returning the aircraft to service, just stating that the equipment complies with the FARs.
 
Part 91.215 defines who needs to fly with a transponder installed. Part 43 defines how that required equipment is to be inspected. Neither section differentiates between certified or experimental aircraft. Also, part 43 specifically states that only a manufacturer or certified repair station may perform these inspections.

Web
 
Typical operating limitations do not bar certified repair stations from doing work on experimental amateur-built aircraft. Such a prohibition makes absolutely no sense. A certified repair station endorsement is needed to meet the requirements for operating a transponder in controlled airspace. It is also necessary for operating IFR (pitot/static check). These operations are specifically allowed in most operating limitations if the aircraft is properly equipped. You can only be properly equipped if your equipment has been certified by an appropriate repair station.

Actually any A&P can do the IFR pitot/static check as long as they have appropriate calibrated equipment.
 
Actually any A&P can do the IFR pitot/static check as long as they have appropriate calibrated equipment.

No. Only a leak check as per 91.411 (b), (3).

IFR checks for altimeters and encoders are tested under part 43 appendix E. IFR checks for transponders are tested under part 43 appendix F. Part 91.411 and 91.413 require those checks to be done by the manufacturer or a certified repair station. See 91.411 (b) and 91.413 (c). Once the equipment is tested, the A&P can reinstall and check for leaks/proper operation (back to 91.411 (b) (3)).

Web
 
I asked a local FAA guy (inspector type) that was working on his C172 next hangar about the statement that started this thread. His response was "who told you that s**t?"

FWIW
 
Then please ask him how you deal with the above posted quote. All the replies so far all seem to agree that it is crazy but I don't think anybody has given a good explanation as to what that prohibition means if it does not mean what it seems to say. That is the real question here.
 
I have been informed recently that in order for a Certified Avionics Repair Station to sign off work on aircraft with a Experimental Airworthiness Certificate the operation limitations for that aircraft has to specifically allow a certified repair station to do the work. (See FAA 8900.1 Volume 2, chapter 11, section 6.E) Operating Limitations is not one of the documents required for an Airworthiness Certificate according to what I find in https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/ultralights/amateur_built/aw/
Any help understanding this would be appreciated.

Who exactly informed you of this? An inspector for a FSDO or some one who 'knows'? The repair station itself? Big man at the repair station of a worker bee? If an inspector tells you this, ask him to explain where the regs say that or ask him to state that in writing. If it's some one who 'knows' stuff, hang out with better friends. If it is the repair station telling you this, tell them that the transponder/encoder/altimeter needs to be tested in accordance with FAR part 43, same as the systems installed on a certified aircraft. If they refuse, go to another shop.

Web
 
The new manager of the repair station who is honestly trying to make sure they are not violating any regs. Pretty sharp guy really. He needs a real (not opinion) explanation of that section that seems to say fairly clearly that there needs to be something in the aircrafts’ limitation allowing a repair station to work on the airplane. You can argue opinions all day. He needs documentation showing that paragraph does not apply to this.


Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org
 
Anyone can sign off work on an amatur built experimental. Not just anyone may sign off a condition inspection.
 
I’m not paying for his education. I’m am trying to be helpful. Is that such a bad thing?
 
If it is an exp. plane, and you are the builder, are you not also the person making the aircraft limitations?

Smart guys sometimes like Rabbit trails to show how smart they are. Often those guys spend lots of your $$$$ fixing, changing and redoing stuff that in their opinion is not right, but is just fine.

Maybe this one can be educated easily, but seems to me his PMI would be the guy to ask. That is the person that the shop needs to deal with daily.
 
Yes George I think you are right in the end he will have to talk to them. I think that is the chief inspector at his FSDO. He was trying to get a bit more info before doing that. Which is probably what a lot of us would do. I asked me because they have signed of my transponder a number of times. And no those limitations on mine anyway came from the DAR that signed off my Airworthyness paperwork’s. They seem to be boiler plate.
 
FAR's trump anything else. Part 91 and part 43 specifically call out the rules for the recert of that equipment. The recert has nothing to do with the aircraft it's mounted in. He needs to sit down and read the applicable parts. The FAR's are the rules that we (both us and the feds) are supposed to be playing by.

Web
 
If it is an exp. plane, and you are the builder, are you not also the person making the aircraft limitations?

No, that's not the case. We are talking about the operating limitations that are issued by the FAA as a part of the aircraft's airworthiness certificate. These operating limitations are called out in FAA Order 8130.2. They have changes somewhat over the years, so you need to know which version of 8130.2 was in force at the time the airworthiness certificate was issued if you want to check for accuracy.

In any event, these operating limitations call out such things as where the initial flight-test area is located, how big it is, and how many hours the plane has to be flown within that flight test area before it can be released from flight test. Also called out in the operating limitations is whether the plane can be flown at night or not, and if it can be flown under IFR. The operating limitations will call out whether or not the plane is authorized for aerobatics.

The operating limitations will call out how often the aircraft needs to be inspected, and who is authorized to perform that inspection. It will also specify the scope and detail of these inspections.

As it relates to this thread, the operating limitations will contain some verbiage stating that certain equipment installed must be inspected in accordance with Part 91, and those regulations in Part 91 may in turn reference certain sections of Part 43.

There is nothing in the FAA-issued operating limitations that would prohibit an FAA repair station from performing a transponder test on an experimental aircraft. However, there may be restrictions written into certain repair stations' specific operations manual(s) that could prohibit this.
 
Ok, folks, this has taken a while but I thought I should try to post here the "Official answer" straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...association - (2015) legal interpretation.pdf

You can click on the link above I hope or I tried to copy it below but the formatting is a little goofy.

U.S. Department
of Transportation
Federal Aviation
Administration
Richard A. Peri
AUG 2 B 2015
Aircraft Electronics Association
601 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
Suite 900, South Building
Washington, DC 20004
Re: Repair Station Maintenance on Aircraft Not Subject to Part 43
Dear Mr. Peri:
This letter responds to your April27, 2015 request for legal interpretation. In your letter,
you ask whether a properly rated repair station may perform tests and inspections on
altitude-keeping and transponder equipment for experimental aircraft (i.e., aircraft with
experimental airworthiness certificates), in light of the fact that parts 43 (maintenance,
preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration) and 145 (repair stations) of Title 14 of
the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) specifically do not apply to experimental aircraft.
For the reasons described below, the answer to your question is yes, FAA regulations allow
a repair station to test and inspect equipment on board an experimental aircraft.
Part 43 "prescribes rules governing the maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding
and alteration" of aircraft. However, as you note in your letter,§ 43.l(a) limits the
applicability of part 43 to "[a]ircrafthaving a U.S. airworthiness certificate ... ; [f]oreignregistered
civil aircraft used in common carriage or carriage of mail under [parts 121 or
135]; and ... component parts of such aircraft." Section 43.1(b) further limits the
applicability of part 43, stating that "[t]his part does not apply to ... [ a]ny aircraft for which
the FAA has issued an experimental certificate," unless certain exceptions apply. 1 .
The exclusion of experimental aircraft from part 43 has consequences throughout our
regulations. The applicability provision ofpart 145, for example, is based on the
applicability of part 43. It states, among other things, that "[t]his part ... contains the rules
a certificated repair station must follow related to its performance of maintenance,
preventive maintenance, or alterations of an aircraft ... or component part to which part 43
applies." 14 CFR § 145.1 (emphasis added.) Therefore, as we have described in previous
legal interpretations/ just as part 43 does not apply to certain aircraft, neither does part 145.
1 The exceptions include aircraft for which FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness
certificate, or any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate under certain special rules
for light sport aircraft. 2 Memorandum to Carol E. Giles from Rebecca MacPherson, Request for Policy Interpretation of 14 CFR
Parts 43 and 145 for FAA Certificated Repair Stations Working on Foreign-Registered Aircraft (Aug. 24,
20 10). This 20 lO interpretation discussed the applicability of pru.i 145 in the context offoreign-registered
aircraft, many of which are also excluded from part 43. In the interpretation, we stated that "the [applicability
of part 145) repair station rules [is) circumscribed by the maintenance rules in part 43, which, by its own terms,
2
Furthermore, because part 145 specifically does not apply to certain experimental aircraft,
neither does the prohibition in§ 145.201(b), that no repair station may "maintain or alter any
article for which it is not rated .... " In other words, if an experimental aircraft, or a
component of an experimental aircraft, is outside the scope of part 145, then§ 145.201(b)
does not prohibit a repair station from performing maintenance on that aircraft or
component. 3
Part 91 applies to a much broader set of owners, operators, and aircraft than parts 43 and
145. More specifically, part 91 applies to, among other things, experimental aircraft
operations. As you note in your letter, §§ 91.411 (b) & 91.413( c), respectively, set out the
requirements for testing and inspecting altitude-keeping and transponder equipment. In
general, these sections prohibit the operation of any aircraft under IFR unless the aircraft's
altitude-keeping and transponder equipment are tested and inspected at least every 24
months, and found to comply with the requirements of part 43. Therefore, even though
part 43 by its own terms does not apply to experimental aircraft,§ 91.411(a) and (b), and
§ 91.413(a) and (c), incorporate certain part 43 requirements, including those that apply to
the altitude-keeping and transponder equipment that are the subject of your inquiry.
With all of this in mind, we return to your question: whether a certificated repair station may
perform maintenance, described in part 43 and required by§§ 91.411 & 91.413, on
experimental aircraft. We have identified no FAA regulations, including§ 145.201(b), that
would prohibit a certificated repair station from performing maintenance for an owner or
operator who seeks to bring an experimental aircraft into compliance with§§ 91.411 &
91.413. Furthermore, although many experimental aircraft are categorically excluded from
parts 43 and 145, those aircraft are not excluded from§§ 91.411 & 91.413, which impose
certain part 43 requirements. Finally, §§ 91.411 & 91.413 require the equipment discussed
in this interpretation to be tested by certain specified individuals or organizations and, as you
state in your letter, in many cases a part 145 repair station is the only viable option for a the
owner or operator of a general aviation aircraft.
[are) limited to aircraft having U.S. airworthiness certificates and foreign-registered aircraft used in common
carriage (or the carriage of mail) ... by United States air carriers." 3 This interpretation assumes that there is no dispute regarding whether the equipment in question will be used
on an experimental aircraft. We do not address a situation in which an operator represents that an article is part
of an experimental aircraft, but the repair station has reason to believe the article will be used on an aircraft
subject to part 43.
3
This response was prepared by Benjamin Jacobs, an attorney in the Regulations Division of
the Office of the Chief Counsel, and was coordinated with the Aircraft Maintenance
Division (AFS-300) of the Flight Standards Service. If you need further assistance, please
contact our office at (202) 267-3073.
Sincerely,
d~~ Lorelei Peter
Acting Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations
 
Ok, folks, this has taken a while but I thought I should try to post here the "Official answer" straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...association - (2015) legal interpretation.pdf

You can click on the link above I hope or I tried to copy it below but the formatting is a little goofy.

U.S. Department
of Transportation
Federal Aviation
Administration
Richard A. Peri
AUG 2 B 2015
Aircraft Electronics Association
601 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
Suite 900, South Building
Washington, DC 20004
Re: Repair Station Maintenance on Aircraft Not Subject to Part 43
Dear Mr. Peri:
This letter responds to your April27, 2015 request for legal interpretation. In your letter,
you ask whether a properly rated repair station may perform tests and inspections on
altitude-keeping and transponder equipment for experimental aircraft (i.e., aircraft with
experimental airworthiness certificates), in light of the fact that parts 43 (maintenance,
preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alteration) and 145 (repair stations) of Title 14 of
the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) specifically do not apply to experimental aircraft.
For the reasons described below, the answer to your question is yes, FAA regulations allow
a repair station to test and inspect equipment on board an experimental aircraft.
Part 43 "prescribes rules governing the maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding
and alteration" of aircraft. However, as you note in your letter,§ 43.l(a) limits the
applicability of part 43 to "[a]ircrafthaving a U.S. airworthiness certificate ... ; [f]oreignregistered
civil aircraft used in common carriage or carriage of mail under [parts 121 or
135]; and ... component parts of such aircraft." Section 43.1(b) further limits the
applicability of part 43, stating that "[t]his part does not apply to ... [ a]ny aircraft for which
the FAA has issued an experimental certificate," unless certain exceptions apply. 1 .
The exclusion of experimental aircraft from part 43 has consequences throughout our
regulations. The applicability provision ofpart 145, for example, is based on the
applicability of part 43. It states, among other things, that "[t]his part ... contains the rules
a certificated repair station must follow related to its performance of maintenance,
preventive maintenance, or alterations of an aircraft ... or component part to which part 43
applies." 14 CFR § 145.1 (emphasis added.) Therefore, as we have described in previous
legal interpretations/ just as part 43 does not apply to certain aircraft, neither does part 145.
1 The exceptions include aircraft for which FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness
certificate, or any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate under certain special rules
for light sport aircraft. 2 Memorandum to Carol E. Giles from Rebecca MacPherson, Request for Policy Interpretation of 14 CFR
Parts 43 and 145 for FAA Certificated Repair Stations Working on Foreign-Registered Aircraft (Aug. 24,
20 10). This 20 lO interpretation discussed the applicability of pru.i 145 in the context offoreign-registered
aircraft, many of which are also excluded from part 43. In the interpretation, we stated that "the [applicability
of part 145) repair station rules [is) circumscribed by the maintenance rules in part 43, which, by its own terms,
2
Furthermore, because part 145 specifically does not apply to certain experimental aircraft,
neither does the prohibition in§ 145.201(b), that no repair station may "maintain or alter any
article for which it is not rated .... " In other words, if an experimental aircraft, or a
component of an experimental aircraft, is outside the scope of part 145, then§ 145.201(b)
does not prohibit a repair station from performing maintenance on that aircraft or
component. 3
Part 91 applies to a much broader set of owners, operators, and aircraft than parts 43 and
145. More specifically, part 91 applies to, among other things, experimental aircraft
operations. As you note in your letter, §§ 91.411 (b) & 91.413( c), respectively, set out the
requirements for testing and inspecting altitude-keeping and transponder equipment. In
general, these sections prohibit the operation of any aircraft under IFR unless the aircraft's
altitude-keeping and transponder equipment are tested and inspected at least every 24
months, and found to comply with the requirements of part 43. Therefore, even though
part 43 by its own terms does not apply to experimental aircraft,§ 91.411(a) and (b), and
§ 91.413(a) and (c), incorporate certain part 43 requirements, including those that apply to
the altitude-keeping and transponder equipment that are the subject of your inquiry.
With all of this in mind, we return to your question: whether a certificated repair station may
perform maintenance, described in part 43 and required by§§ 91.411 & 91.413, on
experimental aircraft. We have identified no FAA regulations, including§ 145.201(b), that
would prohibit a certificated repair station from performing maintenance for an owner or
operator who seeks to bring an experimental aircraft into compliance with§§ 91.411 &
91.413. Furthermore, although many experimental aircraft are categorically excluded from
parts 43 and 145, those aircraft are not excluded from§§ 91.411 & 91.413, which impose
certain part 43 requirements. Finally, §§ 91.411 & 91.413 require the equipment discussed
in this interpretation to be tested by certain specified individuals or organizations and, as you
state in your letter, in many cases a part 145 repair station is the only viable option for a the
owner or operator of a general aviation aircraft.
[are) limited to aircraft having U.S. airworthiness certificates and foreign-registered aircraft used in common
carriage (or the carriage of mail) ... by United States air carriers." 3 This interpretation assumes that there is no dispute regarding whether the equipment in question will be used
on an experimental aircraft. We do not address a situation in which an operator represents that an article is part
of an experimental aircraft, but the repair station has reason to believe the article will be used on an aircraft
subject to part 43.
3
This response was prepared by Benjamin Jacobs, an attorney in the Regulations Division of
the Office of the Chief Counsel, and was coordinated with the Aircraft Maintenance
Division (AFS-300) of the Flight Standards Service. If you need further assistance, please
contact our office at (202) 267-3073.
Sincerely,
d~~ Lorelei Peter
Acting Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations

can we have the cliff notes version of the answer please
 
I looked it up in Google translate. I submitted the entire letter, and the translation was “Yes.” :lol:
 
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