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C180 Alternator Belt

18180

Registered User
Pennsylvania
So...I have 1955 Cessna 180 with a O470K and an Internav alternator. Noticed that it wasn't charging. Found the belt had come off. It looks like it had rolled because I found it inside out. Not the best belt I ever saw but not the worst either. It did not break and was not loose. All bracketry and alignment looks good. Engine drive pulley and alternator pulley both look fine and have no play.


Any ideas? This is my first Continental.
 
Lay a straight edge across both pulleys. This is a good way to really tell if they are in fact aligned. Even a small amount of misalignment will cause belt wear and failure. Replace your current belt with a new one as this one has already had 'issues'. The size of the belt will be coded in the numbers inked on the outside of the belt.

Since this is an Inter Av system, you also need to double check the lower mounting bracket on the alternator. That gold anodized bar has a bad tendency to crack at the end directly below the alternator pulley. And Inter Av is out of business now, so if you do find problems, be prepared to replace it.

Web
 
I will follow your advice and look at the alignment and bracketry again to be sure. i did find that Quality Aircraft Accessories picked up the Interav product line and it seems parts are available through them. http://www.qaa.com/products/aircraft-alternators/all-other-aircraft-alternators

Plan is to replace belt with what came off. P/N 539547-31.19 which is what is called for in the Contenental manual. Only question would be if that part number is also valid with Interav alternator. The belt seems rather narrow. I called Quality Aircraft Accessories and there are three pulley sizes available for the alternator. 3/8, 1/2, 5/8 but they were not able to tell me which is designed to match the continental drive pulley.
 
the only time I can recall... was when we had spiraling crack crankshaft, which when the crack would start to open sent prop to flat and oversped engine over 3000 RPM and threw belt off on 3rd test flight as we were trying to figure out why the engine would go flat pitch in flight.... probably not your issue....

BTW no fun changing a 520 in the middle of no where, getting them in and out of another 185 door by hand...
 
I've seen it several times on IO-520s. Not sure why it happens: the belts look good and appear to be properly tensioned.
 
I used to have one that liked to throw belts with annoying regularity. Enough so that I carried a spare belt in the plane. As I recall the final solution was to over tighten the belt. I also had to lengthen the tension arm to get more adjustment travel. And yes it was the correct belt.
 
At the worst it could possibly be balance of crankshaft (counterbalances)

All good advice,but sticking counter weights are a very common cause

That sounds like one expensive "belt", Longsair!

Let's assume that this is the reason. Assume that the engine is nowhere near time to overhaul. First, how do you determine that the counter weights are sticking? Second, how do you unstick them without taking the engine apart or just removing the cylinders? Both methods are many $$$$ and "may" not solve the belt throwing. If the problem is solved, good. But what if it isn't?

I'm not doubting your view points. Just wanting something concrete before I tear apart a low time engine. As I recall my engine was very low time since new and after finally getting the belt tight enough so as to not throw, it went to TBO. Is it possible that the low time counterweights were sticking and that they "fixed" themselves? And, my finally getting the belt tight enough was only a coincidence?

There were a series of these engines on which the alternator was mounted on rubber bushings. Just perhaps these bushings allowed the alternator to twist enough so that the pulleys were not aligned while the engine was producing power and were aligned while not running? Also, as I recall, there was a bulletin about the alternator mount failing with the repair being a new design without rubber bushings.

I love this site. It gets the thinking analytical juices running. I'm just thinking over my shoulder, speculating with ideas out loud. I know what worked on my engine, but maybe tightening the belt excessively was only a band aid.
 
Don't know that I would buy into the counterweight issue. You will have to explain that one. Engine runs turbine smooth and Interav alternator is hardmounted.
 
N4961L,
Do you have any more adjustment travel in the tension arm or are you at the end of the slot? That was my problem. I welded in an extension on the arm which solved the problem.

Pull the alternator really tight while tightening the bolt.
 
I not saying that this IS the problem, only that if all other options are exhausted this is a known cause of belt throwing on 470/520 engines.
You will never feel this as it is very interment. I only offer this advice to try to help. Call Aircraft Specialties 800-826-9252
 
Sorry if that came across wrong. I am happy to hear the theory behind the counterweight cause. I replaced the belt, tightened it up good, inspected all of the bracketry and alignment and could find nothing wrong. It's still on there but I did throw a 3/4 and 1/2 wrench on the plane along with a spare belt. :wink:
 
3 hours max on new belt. Came off/broke on final approach. Continental belt seems narrow for Interav pulley. I think it is rolling in the groove. Once that heppens, party is over. Belt was as tight as i care to make it.....
 
3 hours max on new belt. Came off/broke on final approach. Continental belt seems narrow for Interav pulley. I think it is rolling in the groove. Once that heppens, party is over. Belt was as tight as i care to make it.....

need to mount a camera in there :-)
 
Probably the wrong pulley/belt combo. Measure the 'V' on both, check the alignment. The Interav is a replacement for a generator, so it probably has the wrong pulley. Make sure the alternator is not bouncing on the mounts and causing an out of alignment situation...
 
As stated above, the alignment needs to be spot on, not just close. With your description, I still think you have an alignment problem or some type of bracket issues. With the belt off check for a solid, lower mount. There should be no fore and aft play whatsoever. Check again for cracks in all parts of the lower mount. Check the tensioning arm for cracks and security. When you put the belt on, make sure you still have some travel left in the tensioning slot. If you put a new belt on and you have to use the entire slot, just get a shorter belt. And make sure your alternator bearings are tight. If you can feel any side to side play on the shaft or ANYTHING other than buttery smooth rotation, yank it off and fix/replace it.

Let us know what you find.

Web
 
Alternator removed and all brackets carefully inspected. Observation is that the way the Interav set up is designed leads to inherent flexibility. To clarify, the original generator U-Channel remains and the Inverav brackets are mounted to that, then the big anodized bar bolts to that. The installation also does not use a lower support bracket as depicted in the Cessna alternator install as well as the original generator install. The Interav pulley is also clearly too big for the TCM belt. They make a 3/8 pulley but it is speced for a Lycoming install so I fear offset may be wrong. I have a Gates belt that fits the alternator pulley nicely but is a bit to tall for the engine pulley. Cessna belt coming today. With alternator in hand, the pulley spins freely with no noise or grinding. Also held pulley and spun body. I have to imagine that if bearings were heating and siezing there would have to be some noticeable noise or roughness. That said, I did try to get bearings from QAA (took over Interav line) but they won't sell them. What happened to Auto Electric shops anyway? So best of three belts is going on...if it happens again, I am going to replace the Interav set up with a Plane Power conversion. Their mount replaces the generator mount (instead of piggybacking on it), uses an upper and lower support backet and uses a 3/8 inch pulley. Not to mention a simplified electrical set up. Interesting side note, after speaking with TCM rep, found out that many of the original installs have what is called a "KISS" pin. A horizontal pin attached to the tensioner bracket that sits just above the belt to prevent the belt from oscillating. I don't have that pin.
 
In the long run you'll be happier if you replace the system with a newer design. Interav was great in the seventies. We have better systems now, such as the Plane-Power units because of the points you spelled out. Smaller alternator, brackets designed for that alternator, updated voltage reg, and simplified wiring.

If this only happens on final, maybe some type of harmonic when you pull the power back? Changing the belt length would help with that. Maybe one of you engineer types could shed some light on this.

Web
 
You've mentioned belt size vs pulley size, but no one has mentioned how the belt is riding in the sheaves. It must not be riding near the bottom, and sides of sheaves not worn either.

Mark J
 
I had an (rebuilt) alternator failure after just 238 some hours and about a year in the 180. Strange part is we (I was close to Pierce's so I limped there) found it while chasing a failing Vacuum pump. I left Denton with a growl and a flickering vac light and when I landed 23 minutes later at Graham I had a howl comming from the left rear of the cowling that was so lound (only at idol, no noise in flight) you couldn't tell what was going south.

The vac pump was new and failed competely at 328 hours and 25 months against a two year warrnaty... no luck there not even a send it in and let us look...next brand thank you very much.

As to the alternator we found metal shinning all around it on the firewall and upon removal the front bearing had obviously failed but it was still making power but not at low rpm. After the swap out and I finally got home (an even longer story) I dropped it of at Quality for a core credit and hopefully a warranty stretch. Credit yes, warranty no and they said it looked like the stator board had failed and they questioned vibration or belt tension and alignment which all looks and feels proper but it's pretty tight around those parts especially with the heavy duty engine mount and this is a really SMOOTH running io520 from Barrett.

My question here is even though the alternator is belt driven, both the alternator and Vac pump are accessory driven so any of you fine feathered engine guys see any correlation?

Kirby
 
What is a stator board? There are two bearings, a stator and a rotor. Would like to see a picture of the failure.

You can get a good Gates belt at the auto parts store that fits the InterAv alternator just fine. Only issues I have had with them is they wear the brushes out eventually. They are Prestolite and available at the autoparts store as well. All approved under AC23.27. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...OP6DNLHHWZPSZvLEg&sig2=S90fodi0G_FVHUMLBNCtvg
 
What is a stator board? There are two bearings, a stator and a rotor. Would like to see a picture of the failure.

You can get a good Gates belt at the auto parts store that fits the InterAv alternator just fine. Only issues I have had with them is they wear the brushes out eventually. They are Prestolite and available at the autoparts store as well. All approved under AC23.27. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...OP6DNLHHWZPSZvLEg&sig2=S90fodi0G_FVHUMLBNCtvg
I think it's shop speak for "I've got your extended warranty right here" but he talked about vibration washers and torque seal all being there yada yada yada...have a nice day.
 
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Ran an InterAv for 20 years on the cub. Replaced with a Nippon when doing a wt reduction. Rebuilt once in 20 years using automotive parts...still working when removed. Also installed many on retro on Piper and Cessna over the last 30 years. Has been a reliable unit and cheap to O/H. The mount was a bit of a Rube Goldberg. Needs attention to detail to keep flexing to a min. Alignment is critical and works better with the fatter/thicker belts.
 
There are two bearings, a stator and a rotor.
A little off topic but might help someone. I was hauling a load of dairy cows from WI to AL. In TN I check things and hear a ticking sound when I walk around the front of the truck. It's a cabover so look under the cab and can't see anything leaking or broken so I keep going. When I back up to the chute to unload I shut the engine off. When I go to leave it won't start, no lights, no nothing. Turns out the stator and the rotor got together because the bearings are out (ticking sound I heard)when the engine was stopped. A mechanic came and unhooked the wires to the alternator and everything worked so a rebuilt was bought and problem solved.
 
What is a stator board? There are two bearings, a stator and a rotor. Would like to see a picture of the failure.

You can get a good Gates belt at the auto parts store that fits the InterAv alternator just fine. Only issues I have had with them is they wear the brushes out eventually. They are Prestolite and available at the autoparts store as well. All approved under AC23.27. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...OP6DNLHHWZPSZvLEg&sig2=S90fodi0G_FVHUMLBNCtvg

Interav has a circuit board, of sorts, in the rear case half. It's the phenolic board that the field terminal sticks out of. This board always worries me because the terminal on the older alternators is always loose. Wonder what that terminal will touch when it detaches?

At a certain point, you need to figure out how much time and cash you've put into a 1970's design. I'm curious about the root cause too, but the law of diminishing returns is kicking in. Get a charging system of a modern design and argue about the Interav while the new system works for the next twenty years.

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