BritishCubBloke
SPONSOR
Bellingen, NSW, Australia
MTV posted on the Bird Dog thread about a C180 being the best aluminium bushplane. What do people think of the Helio Courier?
C180/185 vs Helio Courier
- Thread starter BritishCubBloke
- Start date
Christina Young
Registered User
Andover-Aeroflex, 12N
I have zero experience with Helios and was always under the impression that they were an "ultimate" bush plane, until I spoke with a long time Alaska F&W pilot on my trip this summer with a ton of experience with them. He hated them - the slats can't be locked down when they are deployed, and sometimes wind gusts would retract them right when they were needed most. Design flaw in his opinion. He also said the tail is very heavy.
They also had one at Bettles when I stopped there... I watched it do T&Ls and was not impressed. Could have been the pilot too though.
They also had one at Bettles when I stopped there... I watched it do T&Ls and was not impressed. Could have been the pilot too though.
cub_driver
Registered User
Big Lake AK
I have zip experience in a helio. I think to comparing it with a 180 would be like comparing a 206 to a Beaver. It all depends what your going to be doing with it and how much money you have.
Cub_Driver
Cub_Driver
WWhunter
FRIEND
Near the Headwaters of the Mighty Mississippi Rive
I have watched the JAARS pilots fly their Helo's at Oshkosh. I was very impressed but I'm sure they are outstanding pilots also. But I doubt they could fly the 180/185 the same way. Sure wish I could afford one and learn to fly it like those guys.
Keith
Keith
Mike Woodson
FRIEND
Spokane
I think it is better to compare the 185 to the Hellio. My experience was in Southeast Alaska with 185's on floats vs the Hellio on floats. The 185 would just plain out work the Hellio. Carry more load, get off better cruise faster, handle rough water and weather better (those darn slats again)... and it didn't loose its wings.
During a winter flight from Sitka to Ketchekan the Hellio from the Sitka pulp mill lost a wing coming through one of the passes. I later heard the carry-though washer failed where the wing attaches to the fuselage.
I have heard on wheels the Helio is real good for some applications. Like was said earlier, all airplanes have their plusses and minuses...It all depends in how you use 'em.
During a winter flight from Sitka to Ketchekan the Hellio from the Sitka pulp mill lost a wing coming through one of the passes. I later heard the carry-though washer failed where the wing attaches to the fuselage.
I have heard on wheels the Helio is real good for some applications. Like was said earlier, all airplanes have their plusses and minuses...It all depends in how you use 'em.
S
StewartB
BritishCubBloke said:
I've had one friend that used to own a Helio, my brother-in-law has had two, and another friend currently has one. My impression? A Helio Courier in the hands of a pilot that knows how to fly a Helio is a spectacular performer. Fly them like a Cessna and they don't fare as well. There's a big difference. Most pireps reflect that, too. I've never met a good Helio pilot that didn't love Helios.
SB
BritishCubBloke
SPONSOR
Bellingen, NSW, Australia
How should one fly them differently?
Interesting about the slats going back in with gusts at critical moments. You'd have thought the speed range at which they remain extended was sufficiently broad that this would rarely happen, unless it's really gusty....
ground loop
Registered User
Anchorage
The two Helio pilots I know love them. The only complaints being the large tail in X-winds on landing with wheels and very occasional parts availability. I like the GW of tthe 295 and after talking to those guys I always want one. If you get the chance, some day watch the approach speeds of Cessnas and Helios.
S
StewartB
BCB,
Slow, nose-high, and behind the power curve. Seemingly WAY behind. Most Cessna pilots don't fly like that.
After spending most of my flight time in Cessnas, the Helio flies so slow on approach that it's unnerving. Especially in the 295 and 395 models with geared engines, you hear the motor revving and your vision tells you that the plane HAS to be approaching a stall because big planes don't fly this slow. The plane plops on in three-point and the pilot can stand on the brakes for a VERY short landing roll. Take-off is from a three point as well and all you see is the sky. That isn't so much different than a Cessna, just shorter. The only time I've noticed the slats bouncing was when the plane hadn't been slowed down enough. Once the plane's slow, the slats were rock solid. In all cases I was a right seat passenger, by the way.
I came extremely close to buyind a 250 model once. I often wish I had.
Stewart
Slow, nose-high, and behind the power curve. Seemingly WAY behind. Most Cessna pilots don't fly like that.
After spending most of my flight time in Cessnas, the Helio flies so slow on approach that it's unnerving. Especially in the 295 and 395 models with geared engines, you hear the motor revving and your vision tells you that the plane HAS to be approaching a stall because big planes don't fly this slow. The plane plops on in three-point and the pilot can stand on the brakes for a VERY short landing roll. Take-off is from a three point as well and all you see is the sky. That isn't so much different than a Cessna, just shorter. The only time I've noticed the slats bouncing was when the plane hadn't been slowed down enough. Once the plane's slow, the slats were rock solid. In all cases I was a right seat passenger, by the way.
I came extremely close to buyind a 250 model once. I often wish I had.
Stewart
BritishCubBloke
SPONSOR
Bellingen, NSW, Australia
Stewart,
Interesting. Sounds like it flies much more like a Cub than a Cessna and looking at the wing area and aerofoil section you can see why.
The Dornier 27 has a somewhat similar profile and reputedly outstanding STOL performance, but is uglier:
http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=186
Pretty cheap, though:
http://www.utility-aircraft.com/planes/dornier.htm
Now that Mrs BCB has finally consented to come in the Cub occasionally, I dream of a Helio Courier to take the whole family in (Mrs + 3 small boys). It's an expensive dream and likely to remain so.
I'd settle for a C180 (late model with 6 seats) or C185 though. ;-)
Cheers,
BCB
Interesting. Sounds like it flies much more like a Cub than a Cessna and looking at the wing area and aerofoil section you can see why.
The Dornier 27 has a somewhat similar profile and reputedly outstanding STOL performance, but is uglier:
http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=186
Pretty cheap, though:
http://www.utility-aircraft.com/planes/dornier.htm
Now that Mrs BCB has finally consented to come in the Cub occasionally, I dream of a Helio Courier to take the whole family in (Mrs + 3 small boys). It's an expensive dream and likely to remain so.
I'd settle for a C180 (late model with 6 seats) or C185 though. ;-)
Cheers,
BCB
aktango58
FRIEND
18AA
I have not had the chance to fly the Helio myself, but flown in them and talked to the pilots quite a bit when not beating each other up in Hockey.
The cessnas will out run the helio, no questions asked. Some cubs will keep up with them flat out.
the helio, depending on engine, will fly much more load off short strips than the cessnas.
The Helio can be lightened up and work off of cub strips, (600 feet and shorter at 3000 foot alt), the Cessnas are just asking for trouble in that short of a strip.
The approach and takeoff speeds are dramaticly different. The Helio has a tail that weighs more than you want to ever push, and demonstrated cross wind is very low, (usually you can land across big strips, but for gravel bars?). The gear is tough, the plane is tough.
If you bend one, you may pay what a cessna costs to repair IF parts can be found.
Guys that can fly them well can go where we fly our cubs. Guys that are not so good can do what a Cessna does.
Slats are spring loaded, independent, two per wing. If you loose a bit of lift on the left, the left slat comes out, it suddenly adds lift, giving you the opportunity to not stall. The alierons are deep and short, some have spoilers on the other side to reduce the adverse yaw.
A cool plane. Sorry CY, there are some of the Govt. pilots that just don't know what they have. The slats are actually safer the way they are. (no offence mtv!).
If you fly a Helio well you will embarass the cessnas. But for the record, I used many of the strips the Helio here uses when I flew the 180, and for a lot less $$$$$.
The cessnas will out run the helio, no questions asked. Some cubs will keep up with them flat out.
the helio, depending on engine, will fly much more load off short strips than the cessnas.
The Helio can be lightened up and work off of cub strips, (600 feet and shorter at 3000 foot alt), the Cessnas are just asking for trouble in that short of a strip.
The approach and takeoff speeds are dramaticly different. The Helio has a tail that weighs more than you want to ever push, and demonstrated cross wind is very low, (usually you can land across big strips, but for gravel bars?). The gear is tough, the plane is tough.
If you bend one, you may pay what a cessna costs to repair IF parts can be found.
Guys that can fly them well can go where we fly our cubs. Guys that are not so good can do what a Cessna does.
Slats are spring loaded, independent, two per wing. If you loose a bit of lift on the left, the left slat comes out, it suddenly adds lift, giving you the opportunity to not stall. The alierons are deep and short, some have spoilers on the other side to reduce the adverse yaw.
A cool plane. Sorry CY, there are some of the Govt. pilots that just don't know what they have. The slats are actually safer the way they are. (no offence mtv!).
If you fly a Helio well you will embarass the cessnas. But for the record, I used many of the strips the Helio here uses when I flew the 180, and for a lot less $$$$$.
mvivion
FOUNDER
Bozeman,MT
Christina and aktango,
Weren't me who said the slats are a bad deal. I don't think they are spring loaded, though. When the AOA of the wing reaches a certain point, gravity allows them to slide down to the extended position, which helps prevent airflow separation over the wing. Stewart is correct--if the pilot has the airplane where it should be on an approach, the slats will stay out, unless you hit a good hard gust, in which case they may pop back in, then extend again quickly. This is a good thing, and is precisely what they are designed to do. It is a little unnerving at first, though.
They are very good short field performers, no doubt. If you want to talk to someone who's flown them extensively, contact Bob Burseil at Wright Air service in Fairbanks. He's the owner, and flies the Helios a lot, and is as accomplished in that airplane as anyone, I'd say.
I've not flown the airplane personally, but I've watched some real masters work the airplane, and its performance is very impressive.
MTV
Weren't me who said the slats are a bad deal. I don't think they are spring loaded, though. When the AOA of the wing reaches a certain point, gravity allows them to slide down to the extended position, which helps prevent airflow separation over the wing. Stewart is correct--if the pilot has the airplane where it should be on an approach, the slats will stay out, unless you hit a good hard gust, in which case they may pop back in, then extend again quickly. This is a good thing, and is precisely what they are designed to do. It is a little unnerving at first, though.
They are very good short field performers, no doubt. If you want to talk to someone who's flown them extensively, contact Bob Burseil at Wright Air service in Fairbanks. He's the owner, and flies the Helios a lot, and is as accomplished in that airplane as anyone, I'd say.
I've not flown the airplane personally, but I've watched some real masters work the airplane, and its performance is very impressive.
MTV
scout88305
SPONSOR
Northern Minnesota
Jay at Brooks Range Aviation has one. It is his gravel bar speciality a/c. I think he told me it doens't fly it much in wind. Here is a video of one taking off. Looks like the JARS paint scheme.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDunPCisZWw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDunPCisZWw
StalledOut
Registered User
Anchorage
I love the HC 295. The big rudder, in a crosswind on the water can be fun if you like challenges. Float changes are not quick, you almost end up pulling the engine. The slats do just "pop" out via gravity and if you are not expecting them, that BAM when they slide against the stops will wake you up on final. Also, they are all a little different, parts are more or less custom to each one as they were all hand built. On floats they really shine since they don't have a wing strut in the way.
jgerard
Registered User
Seattle, WA
I have experience rebuilding them, and have worked and flown with a guy that really knows how to PROPERLY fly a Helio. The only GOOD helio is one powered by a geared Lyc or turbine (391,395,295) They are not the best x-wind plane and yes the tail is extremely heavy. Helios that operate in the bush usually have the tail beefed up. Most of the problems with the wings coming off is related to pilot error. The slats are not spring loaded and yes if flown properly they stay down. Most Helios out there have worn out slat arms and rollers that make them a bit stiff. All Helios have spoilers (I seem to remember that Helio calls them "interruptors" ) that work in along with the ailerons when you approach and pass through 50% of deflection. Each of the 4 rebuild projects I worked on showed signs of these aircraft being hand built. We used to joke about Helio employs building the planes at home in their garage. Parts off one plane would not fit another. It's not designed for easy repair and maint compared to other popular bush planes. When taught how to properly fly a helio you would be amazed at what it can do, how nice it flys, and how solid the controls/plane feels while operating in what most pilots would consider "unusual attitudes" I am not that enamored with Helios anymore( amazing how your opinion can change after having to work on something) But I sure can appreciate what the plane can do when flown by the right pilot.
Jason
N3673T
Jason
N3673T
StalledOut
Registered User
Anchorage
How many actually know they made a H-500 twin Courier?
I saw one once many many years go on wheels and always wondered if you could put it on floats.
FYI Mike, the HC were developed through collaboration between Dr. Otto Koppen of MIT and Dr. Lynn Bollinger of Harvard.
I saw one once many many years go on wheels and always wondered if you could put it on floats.
FYI Mike, the HC were developed through collaboration between Dr. Otto Koppen of MIT and Dr. Lynn Bollinger of Harvard.
S
StewartB
Here are some good Helio pictures. I'd love to take an 800 out for a test drive.
http://www.stolaircraft.com/heliopics.htm
And a history lesson. Interesting beginnings, eh?
http://www.stolaircraft.com/nathan2.htm
SB
http://www.stolaircraft.com/heliopics.htm
And a history lesson. Interesting beginnings, eh?
http://www.stolaircraft.com/nathan2.htm
SB
PA-18
Registered User
Odem,Texas
I was on a sheep hunt in N.W.T. with an outfitter by the name of Stan Stevens. He used two Helio's one on wheels the other floats. I road in both and the ride was eye opening. Lots of weight and slow approaches were the norm,I dont believe any cessnas could follow this fellow. Some of you may know him,I had a great hunt almost twenty years ago with him.
I remember I had not owned my supercub long when I went on that hunt, but boy was I a believer in what helios could do afterwards. I remember I asked him about cubs and he had used them a good while,but he needed to be able to carry a hunter and guide and a large pack dog into remote sheep areas. And this was the only one that could do it. I think you would hurt lots of 180/185's trying to follow this guy around,and you would sit up and pay attention if you were in a cub also.
I remember I had not owned my supercub long when I went on that hunt, but boy was I a believer in what helios could do afterwards. I remember I asked him about cubs and he had used them a good while,but he needed to be able to carry a hunter and guide and a large pack dog into remote sheep areas. And this was the only one that could do it. I think you would hurt lots of 180/185's trying to follow this guy around,and you would sit up and pay attention if you were in a cub also.
jgerard
Registered User
Seattle, WA
The 395 and 295 Helios will out perform the 800 even with the 800's 100 more hp. The GO-480 with the long slow turning prop makes for a better thrust to weight ratio. The best one is the turbine converted 395 with a 450hp Allison and HUGE 3 blade prop. That airplane has a 1:1 thrust to weight ratio, will take off and land every time in less than 100'. The fellas that built and flew it back in the 80's claim even shorter (80' & 60') Cruise at 170mph, land at 35! I worked on the restoration of that turbine courier before moving to TX.
http://www.stolaircraft.com/h395turbo.html
see bottom of page six in the photo album listed above
The Helio is a niche market aircraft that many pilots/mechanics are not familiar enough with to properly operate/maintain. I've seen better detail is a childrens coloring book than the Helio parts and service manual. If you need and airframe part you must make it or buy a used one from someone else. The GO-435 and -480 engines can cost up to 60K to major. So the smart money would be on the 180/185 for 90% of the type of flying one would do in an aircraft of that size. There is a story about when Kenmore Air had a Helio on floats and nobody could make it perform any better than the 180's. The consensus was they aren't all that impressive of an aircraft. Then the right pilot with the skills and experience came to work for Kenmore and wowed everyone with the performance of the plane when flown properly. It didn't stay around very long anyway. Mabe the fact that Kenmore was a Cessna dealer had something to do with that?
Jason
N3673T
http://www.stolaircraft.com/h395turbo.html
see bottom of page six in the photo album listed above
The Helio is a niche market aircraft that many pilots/mechanics are not familiar enough with to properly operate/maintain. I've seen better detail is a childrens coloring book than the Helio parts and service manual. If you need and airframe part you must make it or buy a used one from someone else. The GO-435 and -480 engines can cost up to 60K to major. So the smart money would be on the 180/185 for 90% of the type of flying one would do in an aircraft of that size. There is a story about when Kenmore Air had a Helio on floats and nobody could make it perform any better than the 180's. The consensus was they aren't all that impressive of an aircraft. Then the right pilot with the skills and experience came to work for Kenmore and wowed everyone with the performance of the plane when flown properly. It didn't stay around very long anyway. Mabe the fact that Kenmore was a Cessna dealer had something to do with that?
Jason
N3673T
Christina Young
Registered User
Andover-Aeroflex, 12N
scout88305 said:
Does anyone have a video of a Helio taking off and / or landing short? This and a couple other videos I've seen on the net show take offs comparable to my 165HP Stinson.... maybe they're all heavily loaded?
C
canadianjc
I second pa-18
Stan Stevens is a complete wizard in a helio with over 20 years of bush time in that aircraft......... they say if haven't ground looped a helio you will...............
Stan Stevens is a complete wizard in a helio with over 20 years of bush time in that aircraft......... they say if haven't ground looped a helio you will...............
aalexander
Registered User
Anchorage
Christina Young said:
Sometimes it's pretty hard to get a good sense of distances on a photo or video. (that's why photography and cinematogrtaphy are arts) I suspect that the takeoff in that video is shorter than it looks from the video. How does your Stinson perform with 1200 lb on board?
Christina Young said:
Toward the bottom of this page there are a number of videos of Helios.
http://www.heliocourier.net/
Jack
Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
Does anyone have time to search out some photos of the spoilers on helios?
I'd love a couple of links to them.
Thanks ahead of time. DAVE
I'd love a couple of links to them.
Thanks ahead of time. DAVE
xwind3
Registered User
The comparison between the Helio and the 180/185 may be a bit unfair for comparison. They do not fly the same. The Helio on floats will out perform the 180/185 hands down. I know of no Cessna that will get off the step in 7-8 seconds loaded, the Helio cruises faster with floats 108 KTS.
The 1200/1400 series Helio H-295 in most cases performs as good if not better than the aforementioned Cessna with a higher degree of safety
The 1200/1400 series Helio H-295 in most cases performs as good if not better than the aforementioned Cessna with a higher degree of safety
xwind3
Registered User
Talkeetnaairtaxi
Registered User
Iliamna Alaska
I have owned a 1957 C-180 a a few C-185' E & F models
I have also owned a a H395 and two a H295 Helio's.
All of the planes had to work for a living flying in the Alsaka in the hardest off field conditions.
I no longer own any Helio's but do still own a C-185
Hands down a Helio with the GO-480 power plant will take off shorter, land shorter and carry a bigger load than any C-180 or C-185 ever made.
The C-185 is 20 MPH faster than the Helio at the same fuel burn
The Helo cost at least 25% more to operate than a C185
Parts can be very hard to get for the Helio
The Helio is a hand full in a cross wind.
Any tail wheel pilot can quickly learn to fly a C-180/185. The Helio will take instruction from a good Helio pilot and will still take 75-100 hours to become 1/2 way proficient in it.
The first Helio I bought I hated it. For the first 80 hours flying a Helio I thought it was a pice of junk and was mad at myself for selling my C-180. After 100 hours flying the Helio I started to like it after 300 hours I loved the Helio.
The Helio will land as short as a good PA-18. The Helio only needs 100' more runway to take off than a Pa-18.
I will be the first person to say the Helio Courier is not a perfect plane and the take off and landing performance has a price to be paid.
Anyone that says the Helio (GO480 powered) does not take off and land shorter than a C-180/185 does not know what they are talking about.
Jerry Jacques
I have also owned a a H395 and two a H295 Helio's.
All of the planes had to work for a living flying in the Alsaka in the hardest off field conditions.
I no longer own any Helio's but do still own a C-185
Hands down a Helio with the GO-480 power plant will take off shorter, land shorter and carry a bigger load than any C-180 or C-185 ever made.
The C-185 is 20 MPH faster than the Helio at the same fuel burn
The Helo cost at least 25% more to operate than a C185
Parts can be very hard to get for the Helio
The Helio is a hand full in a cross wind.
Any tail wheel pilot can quickly learn to fly a C-180/185. The Helio will take instruction from a good Helio pilot and will still take 75-100 hours to become 1/2 way proficient in it.
The first Helio I bought I hated it. For the first 80 hours flying a Helio I thought it was a pice of junk and was mad at myself for selling my C-180. After 100 hours flying the Helio I started to like it after 300 hours I loved the Helio.
The Helio will land as short as a good PA-18. The Helio only needs 100' more runway to take off than a Pa-18.
I will be the first person to say the Helio Courier is not a perfect plane and the take off and landing performance has a price to be paid.
Anyone that says the Helio (GO480 powered) does not take off and land shorter than a C-180/185 does not know what they are talking about.
Jerry Jacques
Cub Drivers Local 907
Registered User
Alaska
I have never flown a Helio but believe it to be a superior STOL aircraft to the 185 which I do own. When I was shopping for a pickup truck (bigger aircraft) I bought a 185 for basically one reason...no matter where I go in Alaska I can find parts and get back in the air, with the Helio good luck. This in my opinion works with the Husky/ Cub debate too. Even if the Husky was superior (which it isn't) in the Alaska environment, if I bust something even on the North Slope chances are there is a part within 100 miles I can borrow to get my cub back to civilization.
Just my two cents.
Hank
Just my two cents.
Hank
Talkeetnaairtaxi
Registered User
Iliamna Alaska
I totally agree with what Cub Drivers Local 907 said.
JJ
JJ
