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Building a Javron Cub

Weekly update.


P10206701.jpg

MMR came by and as always is a huge help. Somewhere along the way, when trimming my rudder stops to get the max throw, I over did it. Seems like it was fine before cover and for whatever reason now they are too short and the rudder hits the elevator at full throw. Solution - we drilled the inside of the stop tube just a little and then threaded it for a 1/4 x 20 and put in a bolt. Mark going at it.


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So now we have adjustable rudder stops. I ground the bolt head a little so it is the same dia as the stop.
(tail spring bolt is just a temp - too short - proper bolt to be installed later)


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Mark also prepped the boot cowl, sanded, taped and I shot a little flat black paint on the glare shield. Then I put the firewall blanket in. Boot cowl is ready to go.


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Buck stopped by to say "Hi" and yup, got put to work. Actually he volunteered. Like MMR, great guy - great friend - I am Blessed.
Buck cutting out the rudder cable slit. The cable exit was straight off the Piper drawing and was spot on.


P1020679.jpg

So this week we got the gear on for the last time, elevators, front seat rudder pedals, brakes, fixed a door issue, connected the rudder cables, elevator cables, installed the torque tube, and I can't remember what else. A good productive weekend. Back to work.....at my other job......you know.....the one that makes all this possible.


P1020674.jpg

Looks funny with the small tires. Bushwheels later.


Bill
 
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Great progress Bill she's going to be every bit as pretty as the last one.
 
Don't know which direction that you are going, but I found it a lot easier to install the panel and all of the "stuff" behind the panel before installing the boot cowl.
 
Don't know which direction that you are going, but I found it a lot easier to install the panel and all of the "stuff" behind the panel before installing the boot cowl.
I have recently been thinking the same thing - install the firewall onto the boot cowl with clekos, then install both onto the fuselage (with clekos) to align/position the instrument panel. Once the instrument panel is in place, remove the boot cowl and place the firewall back into position. This would leave a large open area to ease installation of all the stuff between the instrument panel and the firewall. I am planning to use this method. However, Bill's boot cowl is made in pieces so he may be able to remove panels to access this area via panel removal.

My comment, here, should probably be taken as the apprentice second-guessing the master.
 
Pete and Keith - good input, thanks.


JAVRON UPDATE


I received my flaps and ailerons yesterday. These were the last of the parts to the kit that Jay (Javron owner) had to tool up for, make, and deliver. Yes, it has been a long road. I was the first to order a "Javron" kit after he decided to start producing his own kit, Vs subcontracting to others. When he started he did not have everything done and ready to go. So he delivered parts as he got them produced and hoped he stayed in front of the pace of his builders. For the most part he did, and he has been able to deliver the parts of the kits to his customers before they needed them. Some would maintain that you should never sell something until it is perfect, complete or whatever. If that were the case not much would ever get to market. The reality is a SC kit is a HUGE project with TONS of parts and it would be almost impossible to get totally set up before you sold the first part. It could be done but it would take a massive investment, in both time and money, and that investment would probably never be recompensed. Lets face it folks, there is not a big market for SC kits. If you sold 10 kits a year that would be pretty good and lets say you managed to make 5K profit per kit. That means you invested several 100K, worked 70 or 80 hours a week for a year, and made 50K. You could do better working at Walmart or McDonalds. So, the harsh reality is that you must keep your costs and overhead under control or you simply will not be able to stay in business. That really great 250K punch press that would help you make 40 kits a year is just not an option. After a few months you miss your payment, then another, and the bank repossess the machine and things go down hill from there. Jay had to expand his shop in order to have room for his growing SC kit business but in order to keep the cost down he did a lot of the building work himself. That slowed kit development and production down while that upgrade was done. That shop is now both complete, and paid for, so that really helps keep the overhead down. I won't say Jay is caught up but he is getting close and things are really coming together. If you ordered a kit 3 years ago you are getting the last of your parts now. If you ordered 2 years ago you are getting the last of your parts in a month or so. If you ordered a year ago you will get the last of your parts right after the first of the year and if you order today you will have the whole kit and caboodle in 3 months or so. And Jay is building up some inventory such that he will be able to ship in a matter of days in the future. Right now he has several fuselages pre-welded as far as he can take them, without customer options, ready to be finished and shipped. All of the smaller weldments are currently in inventory and can be shipped immediatly. He is getting caught up on wings, flaps, and ailerons, and will eventually (probably second quarter 2015) have a set or two of both square and round tip wings assembled and ready to ship. The good news is he has a great product and demand is good. The bad news is demand is so good it has been a struggle to keep up, and get ahead, but the end is in sight and he is doing great.

Speaking of wings. Jays round tip wing is pretty much an exact Piper wing. If you have a Javron round tip wing and ordered any Univair part it will bolt right in (or on), including flaps and ailerons. They are made straight to Piper specs. So lets say you had a wrecked set of wings and wanted to build up a set of experimental wings using some of the parts off the wreck. You could order the stuff you need from Jay and use the salvaged stuff from your wings and it would all fit together. Thats pretty cool. (Usual disclaimer about using too much certified stuff or trying to make a certified airplane into an experimental). Jay is selling a wing kit now (might be a couple of months now for delivery, he still has a bit more catching up to do, but sometime early next year he should be able to ship a wing kit within a few days of getting the order) that will be ready to assemble. No trimming, grinding, cutting etc. Holes drilled in the spars, and one side of rib holes located, but you would use that locator to finish drilling. But all sheet metal bent, cut, and ready to be put together. This kit with flaps, ailerons, and welded tank is about 13.5K right now. He does not have a builders manual yet so you get all the parts but you will have to figure out how to assemble. Builders manual will come at some point. If you want it assembled and ready to cover I think they are going for 17.5K. Obviously prices are subject to change.
The square tip wing is different. Mostly the same parts, but they are moved around, thus standard Piper ailerons and flaps will not fit, so you have to get Jay's. Furthermore Javron sells parts. Just need a set of pre-bent leading edges, spars, etc. He will sell it. It has been a long hard pull for Jay but I have a great deal of admiration and respect for him. Outstanding quality, service, prices, and turn around getting better all the time.

Larry Vetterman is one of those that built faster than Jay could keep up. He has been waiting on his flaps and ailerons. Thats all that is left for him. He will come in under 900 pounds for an 0-320 powered Supercub. Thats pretty cool folks, and easily in the range of the Carbon Cub.

photo-12.jpg

Covered in Oratec. I can't wait to see it in person. It should be outstanding. Adam out in California will probably be #2 finished. Jim in WI might finish before I do ( if I worked on the Cub more and spent less time on this blog.........)



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My flaps and ailerons came in this very nice crate. It would take a lot for the shipper to mess it up. Jay does great work. I am a very happy customer.


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Excellent workmanship. Fits perfect. I knew it would based on his other parts/workmanship.



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Ailerons are standard length 102" but moved out to the tip. Weight is 88.2oz (5.5pds)

Flaps are 88" (std is 67", longer due to square wing and extended to fuselage). Weight is 76.0 oz (4.75pds)

I do not have flap and aileron weights from anyone else. If anyone out there can weigh their flaps and ailerons that would be great. Please indicate lengths. Anyone have Dakota, CC, Univair, Piper, Backcountry, weights? Please use a postal scale not bathroom stuff. Thank you from me, and on behalf of others, that might like to see those numbers.

Hope this helps

Bill


 

Excellent report Bill. If I were going to build another, there is no question who I would call for the kit. The components which Jay built for mine were perfect.

Just a reminder that the aileron control horn top connection needs to be twisted (3* as I recall) towards the pulley in the wing for alignment purposes. It is shown on the drawings. The one in this picture appears to be straight.
 
Pete - good eyes. This is a square wing and things are not located in the same places so I don't know if i will need the 3 degree offset yet or not. I'll look at it when I assemble it, but I will remember your input and check it then.
Larry - Jay is supposed to drop them off on his way through here in early Dec.

Torque Tube Shims


Mark and Cal came by today and we got after it pretty good.

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Flaps and Ailerons are covered. Still need to tape and stitch but moving ahead. Mark spent most of the day doing domestic chores.....ironing.


P1020686.jpg

Cals mission was to finalize the Torque Tube install. This requires shims (washers or bushings depending on what nomenclature you choose).
The problem with washers is they are too wide so they encroach into the bearing area. You could just sand or file that side down a bit so you had a flat side thus making it fit but then the rest of it will stick out from between the saddles and look goofy.


P1020687.jpg

The saddle.......kinda messy....this was taken while we were working on it.....

1) You can get shims from McMaster-Carr that are 1/4IDx3/8OD and they fit great. They come in different thicknesses. I got .020. Part #97022A440
They come in packs of 10 for about 4.50. I got two packs.
2) When Jay builds the torque tube saddles they are marked which is fwd and which is aft and in which direction they go. This is important. If you paint over these markings it may take a long while to figure out how they go together. They are welded up in one piece, then checked for fit, then cut apart. When they are cut apart that leaves the width of the kerf that must be shimmed. The Piper parts manual also lists the shims so I guess they are probably available from Univair, and possibly other sources.
3) Cal worked on this for several hours as it was binding when the saddle bolts were tightened up. Even with the shims. We were all flummoxed until Cal figured out that it was binding on the sides, not up and down. I reamed the holes in the saddles separately when I first installed it, and checked for fit, many moons ago. And I used AN3 bolts for the trial fit up just because it was easier to do. Worked great but that masked the problem. Because I reamed the saddles separately, when they were put together the bolt hole was not perfectly straight so as the bolt was tightened it cocked the saddle ever so slightly thus binding things up. When I used the AN3 bolts in the trial fit up there was enough slop from the smaller bolt so that it did not cock off. Once we figured all that out, I reamed (aggressively) the saddles in place (and together) and the problem was solved. Cal probably has a sore back from leaning into the cockpit for several hours trying to get it figured out. I like my controls with ABSOLUTELY NO binding, sloppy loose, and Cal was able to "git-er-done". Came out great. This is one of those areas you just have to work on until you get it right.
4) Ream the saddle bolt holes together as one unit. Depending on how many shims you use this may also affect the bolt hole alignment so you might have to ream it a little oversize (ie wiggle the reamer side to side a little as you work it in and out) to get it so the bolt slides in and out of the hole with no binding.

This might be a little hard to understand until you get to that part. Come back and re-read it with parts in hand and hopefully it will make sense.

As always.....Hope this helps

Bill
 
Pete and Keith - good input, thanks.
Flaps are 88" (std is 67", longer due to square wing and extended to fuselage). Weight is 76.0 oz (4.75pds)

I do not have flap and aileron weights from anyone else. If anyone out there can weigh their flaps and ailerons that would be great. Please indicate lengths. Anyone have Dakota, CC, Univair, Piper, Backcountry, weights? Please use a postal scale not bathroom stuff. Thank you from me, and on behalf of others, that might like to see those numbers


Bill, those sound like excellent weights. Mine were 9.6 lbs aileron, and 7.4 lbs flap (79"). The D&E leading edge extrusions are beautiful but heavy.

Also I built my ailerons flat and didn't care about washout. My Cub flies fine.
 
When you remove the torque tube saddles on a restoration punch the tower of the front mount with one prick mark on one side and one prick mark adjacent to the other prick mark on the cap. Put two prick marks on the rear tower and cap. That way they don't get swapped fore and aft or turned 90 degrees. As far as shimming Piper had 3 different size shims, 41371-02 .010-.014", -03 .015-.020" and -04 .032". Univair sells them or experimental make your own.
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Weights I have:
Super Cub Flaps
Metal late model 4.8 lbs.
Covered thru Polybrush 4.20 lbs.
Old dope w/duct tape 4.5 lbs.
DC extended inbrd. thru Polybrush 4.70 lbs.
 

Attachments

  • 41371.pdf
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Great inputs, thanks Steve and Christian.

Larry sent this.......(covering is Oratec)

My flaps are 67 inches long, standard 13 rib wing, wooden tip bow. Flap wt. bare 3 1/2 lbs. Covered finished weight is 4 1/4 lbs. So I added 12 ounces or 3/4 lbs of fabric, glue etc. in measuring out the fabric I cut a 69 X 32 inchpanel and glued the overlap at the trailing edge. I rib stitched the flaps also. Larry v.






Bill
 
Bill: Tail end Charlie checking in here. I recently discovered your excellent, VERY detailed blog and have learned a lot. Thank you! Of course the learning process stimulated questions, so I have one: You have done an fine job setting your build criteria, listing options and making choices based on data, generally weight driven decisions. But you did not mentioned the Carbon Cub as an option during your early decision process and since that design also strived towards the lightest solution, I wonder: was it eliminated before you began in favor of working with Jay? Or did the CC have some failings that just didn't meet your needs?
OK, I have two questions, if I may hijack your blog for a moment. I am interested in a little different Cub than is generally discussed on SC.org. I owned and sold a Swick-T (Clipped T'craft) and it was a joy, only down side was a single seat. So to recreate that experience and provide room for two, I would like to do to a Super Cub what Reed did to a J-3 back in the '60s: basically shorten each wing panel by 42.5 inches by eliminating the inner bay. Of course I would also eliminate the flaps that come on most PA-18s. For this to work properly, lightness is critical and therefore your blog is crucial. I have talked to Jay and am in the process of discussing this shorter wing and its internal configuration--generally the same as a Pacer/Tri-Pacer short wing Piper wing. If that works out, I will pick a fuse--probably a CC fuse or Javron after some more research, so your take on my first question will help that process. Sooo please your thoughts. And the thoughts of others. I do not bruise easily and thank you again for allowing this small detour.
paul
 
Kenny Johnson would be a good person to talk about the style of airplane you are talking about. He has a third cub at the airport now in final assembly. He's a cub building machine.
 
Bill et al: it rained in SoCal for the first time in forever and since I am afraid of the stuff, I stayed in my Jammie's and read all your good info. Bummer re: SC wings not fitting a CC as Javron short wings on a CC fuse would seem the lightest, easiest approach. Mitch, the CC EX pgm mgr, is off shooting at Bambi, but when he returns I will see if there is a work around.
paul
 
3/4ths of an inch on the back spar is a big workaround. then the cc frame is only setup for electric trim. but the overhead flap deal would be cool.
 
Rear Seat Info


Got the last of the seat cushions in so the seats are pretty much done. Here are a couple of photos.....


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P1020691.jpg



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So ......lets walk through the rear seat set up with some weights....


P1020711.jpg

First we start with the frame as received from Javron according to Piper drawings, basically just a couple of cross tubes.


P1020710.jpg

We bend up and create this little "L" shaped bracket out of .040. See post #1228 http://www.supercub.org/forum/showt...g-a-Javron-Cub&p=612730&viewfull=1#post612730
for more info.


P1020709.jpg

Another angle. Here you can see the strips of piano hinge I riveted on. With all attach bolts, nuts, and hardware it weighs 6oz.


P1020708.jpg

We also have this little plate that keeps stuff from sliding forward in the cargo area under the seat. Weight 2.9oz


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Bracket and kickplate in place


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Then we have a Randy Appling Carbon Concepts Carbon Fiber storage box. Weighs 13.21 oz


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Looks like this in place.


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Then we put in the seat bottom (weighs 84.57oz including the Carbon Fiber bottom, same material as the front floorboards) and also the aluminum seat back (weighs 33.15oz)


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Next the rear seat cushion goes in (weighs 39.3oz)


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There is a flap that goes over the removable rear cross bar and gets snapped down. I have not got the snaps on just yet.

So the total weight for the complete rear seat assembly is 179oz or 11.18 pounds. Seems heavy but it really isn't. The bottom is the Confor (Tempur) foam and thus is quite comfortable, even for long trips. I would be willing to bet it is much lighter than the original set up.

The front seat bottom including the CF bottom is 46.34oz. The back including the CF backing is 34.32oz and the complete front seat assembly weighs 222oz or 13.9 pounds.

P1020707.jpg

I received the aluminum wing struts from Javron. They are a work of art. No weight data just yet. Speaking of weight data....

Aileron bare weight 88.2 oz (since it is moved outboard it has 4 hinges Vice 3 thus that adds a little weight. All part of the square wing package. Longer flap has an extra hinge as well and all those things are why a square tip wing weighs more than a round tip. All those little things add up).........
Covered, stitched and taped - ready for primer 98.3oz. So covering added about 10.1 oz. to the aileron.....


Folks - I am going to try to put to together a post with all the weight data in one place rather than scattered throughout 35 pages. Might take a while but should be a one stop shopping aid to folks that need or want a piece of data.

Hope all this helps

Bill
 
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Beautiful! Wayne Meier came back to MN after his recent visit at your place just raving about the great workmanship.
 
Bill, I believe I'd be thinking up another story about this airplane 'cause the inspector ain't gonna' believe it's amateur built.
 
Bii
What do you find is the best RPM for the output gear speed ? Also could i get the part # McMaster Carr ?

Thanks Baja
 
Bill: Tail end Charlie checking in here. I recently discovered your excellent, VERY detailed blog and have learned a lot. Thank you! Of course the learning process stimulated questions, so I have one: You have done an fine job setting your build criteria, listing options and making choices based on data, generally weight driven decisions. But you did not mentioned the Carbon Cub as an option during your early decision process and since that design also strived towards the lightest solution, I wonder: was it eliminated before you began in favor of working with Jay? Or did the CC have some failings that just didn't meet your needs?
OK, I have two questions, if I may hijack your blog for a moment. I am interested in a little different Cub than is generally discussed on SC.org. I owned and sold a Swick-T (Clipped T'craft) and it was a joy, only down side was a single seat. So to recreate that experience and provide room for two, I would like to do to a Super Cub what Reed did to a J-3 back in the '60s: basically shorten each wing panel by 42.5 inches by eliminating the inner bay. Of course I would also eliminate the flaps that come on most PA-18s. For this to work properly, lightness is critical and therefore your blog is crucial. I have talked to Jay and am in the process of discussing this shorter wing and its internal configuration--generally the same as a Pacer/Tri-Pacer short wing Piper wing. If that works out, I will pick a fuse--probably a CC fuse or Javron after some more research, so your take on my first question will help that process. Sooo please your thoughts. And the thoughts of others. I do not bruise easily and thank you again for allowing this small detour.
paul

Paul,

I am attempting to build a Clip Wing Super Cub. It won't be a star-burst painted aerobatic thing with wheel pants though and it will have flaps and mud on the bottoms of the wings. I'd be interested in talking Clip Wings but I think you should start a new thread and leave this thread to Bill's Javron Cub. :)

Andrew.
 
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Please start another thread soas not to drift this one. Having flown Pacers, Clippers and Clipped Winged Cubs I have some comments.
 
Baja

Sorry for the delay in responding. I wanted to make sure I gave you the correct information so I found the receipt.

The motor is McMaster-Carr #6409K18 it is a 12Volt DC motor and spins at 50RPM.
The coupling is McMaster-Carr# 6208K142 (Aluminum Helical Beam Clamp-on Coupling 5/16 X 3/8 Bore, 1" length, 1" outside diameter)

Hope this helps

Bill
 
Tempdoug - the struts were specifically designed for Javron and they were extruded for that purpose. They have a ridge(s) in them for strength. They are not just straight streamlined tubing. Jay then machines the end fittings. They are STRONG.

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P1020705.jpg

This is the machined fitting that holds the jury strut on. They are about the same weight as the HD struts from Univair. Jay thinks he can lighten them up a bit but he is having "destructive" testing done to insure the strength. They will be pulled to failure.


P1020719.jpg

Speaking of Jay, he stopped in at Bills Bed and Breakfast and of course got put to work. Here he is working on my cowling. I think I got the best end of that deal. A little breakfast, and dinner, and I think he was working for about 2 bucks an hour. He is just one of those mechanically gifted people, and a good Christian man.


P1020718.jpg

So while Jay was working on the cowling, MMR, Cal, and I finished covering the flaps and ailerons. All covering is now complete. Painting to come this weekend and the wings go on by the end of the year. Hopefully.

Bill
 
Kudos to Jay :onfire: Those struts look great. Having your own extrusions made is a considerable investment. Hopefully he can utilize his test data to convince the FAA to issue a PMA and STCs to be able to market them to the certified high wing Pipers. That would be a big win for all.
 
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