Build a CUB options

[aktango58]

Bill,

Update on my carbon fiber testing:

Broke a bunch of it, drove holes in it, and am soaking some in a very corrosive solution with bolt through it. I have to say that the stuff from Randy at 6E concepts has me changing my mind and thinking my floor boards will be CF.

The edge of his floor boards do break a bit sharp, but no more than aluminum. Edges are not jagged, and no long splinters like I get from my CF arrows. I am leaning to CF for my plane where I can use it, but probably not the sides, as they will be light, consumable and I expect to beat the husky out of them.

George

ps I have a new spot for you to try fishing next year

 

[dlwoolsey]

electric trim

bill if i remember right you designed an electric trim system for your airplane, how did it work out? Also it is good to hear that you are getting things rolling again. I am just getting started rebuilding my 2+2 that I bent this spring so I am right there with you. Good luck, Duane Woolsey

 

[Bill Rusk]

Duane

Sorry to hear you are rebuilding :smile: but glad to share any info I can. The electric trim worked great and I am doing it again. I will have some photos and info in the next couple of weeks. You can visit my thread on "Building a Smith Cub" to get the first version of electric trim. It worked great but I am trying a different motor this time. The last one worked just fine but, like everyone, I am always searching for better, faster, lighter etc.

If I get out to SLC it would be fun to hook up and see your project.

Bill

 

[flylowslow]

I'm on the" Johnny Cash build a Cadillac program" but it has been fun actually. Went the Javron route and only wish could build it at home. Jay uses sound, up to date cnc and his new builders center is incredible for cub builders. here is my firewall and boot cowl jig-up.

 

[Bill Rusk]

Folks

Pretty interesting to go back and read this thread. Lots of good inputs. Thank you all.

I tried a different trim motor and it did not work out. It interfered with the elevator cables. So I went back to the McMaster -Carr unit. It has worked great. No problems at all. You can find more info in the "Building a Javron Cub" thread.

To those who might stumble on this thread....an update. I finished the Javron Cub and have been flying the stuffing out of it. I have about 535 hours on it after 2.5 years. It has been EVERYTHING I hoped and more. I have used, and needed, every bit of the 2300GW. I met my goals stated in the first part of the thread. Under 1100 pounds (1052), for a full up, all Alaska mods, 0-360 powered Super Cub. I have spent two summers in Alaska on floats. More to come.

Some updates on "Build a Cub" options

Cub Crafters has come up with some great improvements, and their newer kits are better suited for longer, bigger, heavier trips. They have increased the baggage capacity, fuel load, (i.e. range), durability and GW. They remain....an outstanding kit, and company. The downsides also remain. Not much ability to customize the airframe, and cost. The are excellent but somewhat expensive. You do get a lot for your dollar but you have to come up with a pretty significant amount of money pretty quick. They do allow you to order the kit in subsets, thats good, but they go together quick so you need the next subset ASAP and that means money. Kits are in the 140K and up range. Excellent company....excellent product. Highly recommended.

Javron continues to improve and grow. My understanding is he has about a 3 month lead time for a kit. Advantages are cost, flexibility and quality. He will sell parts and that allows for the ability to scratch build with Javron help. His kits run about 44K depending on the options you select. Still no builders manual, though I will be working on that this year (a little). But hopefully there is some info in my thread "Building a Javron Cub" that might help. The only real downside to Javron is he does not always hit his promised delivery times. If you expect this then it lowers the frustration from his being late. Quality is excellent as is cost. I am biased. I built a Javron kit and I'm super pleased with it. I know of lots of happy Javron customers, several are building a second one, including me, (and one who was not so happy, but I believe Javron made it as right as possible). Jay is doing "builder Assists" as well.

He is finishing up a third expansion of his shop, and that should help with organization, and also delivery times.
Javron remains my highest recommendation when considering cost, flexibility (to customize your kit), and quality.

Backcountry produces the SC revision 2 and Boss. Both of these are highly modified. Really not even a Cub anymore. They are heavy duty, high GW, workhorses. Kits start at 66 and 72K. I understand there may have been some delivery and quality issues in the past. Quite possibly the most difficult kit to build. Depending on your mission....this may be the ticket. It is a mixed bag. I've seen some awesome performance, and other folks sell their airplane because they hated it. I would recommend flying one before you invest in the kit. It seems folks either love it or hate it.

Legend Cub has upped the engine size and also the GW as well. In the past it was more of a light sport Cub but now it is approaching more of a standard Supercub configuration. Excellent kit, good company, and certainly worth a look depending on your mission.

Dakota Cub remains an excellent choice, depending on your wants and needs.

The Northstar Cub is still an option.

Wag Aero is still an option, but again it is more of a J-3 with an 0-320 than a full up SC. You could make modifications as desired, but you are getting closer to scratch building here. Quality has been a problem in the past, not sure where this is now.

Folks, the above is just my "OPINION" and I may very well be out to lunch. Do your homework, talk to builders from each group, fly an example if you can, visit the company. What works for you will be a little different from the next guy. We all have different needs, expectations, budgets, etc.

DEFINE YOUR MISSION, then build for that. Build for what you will be doing 90% of the time. Don't build for the 10% dream that you "might" do someday.
Best of luck

Hope this helps

Bill

 

[stewartb]

Backcountry Supercub Rev 2. The evolution of the very popular and well liked SQ-2. I’m a happy customer. And given the pireps from a couple of flying Rev 2s that aren’t familiar to most here? I’m more excited than ever. I know of three Rev 3s being built now.

Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org mobile app

 

[Bill Rusk]

Stewart

I've been closely following your build. VERY IMPRESSIVE!!! You guys make quite a team and Skup is truly a craftsman. I am really interested, and I hope you might consider giving me a ride sometime. I am really looking forward to your reports. Very well done sir, and thank you for posting.

Bill

 

[stewartb]

You'll get the invite.

There are lots and lots of great options in the Cub builder world. The biggest first step? Go experimental. From there you can build anything from a replica of a Piper to a replica of what modified Pipers became in the certificated category, or take it outside the box. There are soooo many fun choices in engines, props, avionics, high lift wings, landing gear, suspensions.... it's like being a kid in a candy shop. Target what you want and go for it. And be prepared that the products you invested in may not be the coolest by the time you get the plane finished. And that's a good thing. With any luck the evolution of experimental Cubs will continue for a long time.

 

[toklat$1]

Folks

Lets talk about building a Supercub.

Options

1 Scratch Good = lots of options, full flexibility, cheap intro and possibly final cost
Bad = Time, resale

2 Backcountry kit Good = fairly complete, reasonable quality, available, support,
strong, previous experience
Bad = could be lighter

3 Dakota Cub Kit Good = company has excellent reputation,
Bad = not much info, weight?

4 Cub Crafters Good = Quality, Company, complete, support, resale, all good
Bad = Cost, Gross weight limit?

5 Javron Good = Don't know much, Buhler? anyone
Bad = see above

6 Spraker Good = Cheap start, flexibility,
Bad = Time

7 Wag Aero Good = Cost, available,
Bad = Time, more of a J-3 than a SC

8 Rebuild Good = Find a fuselage and redo it, quick start, light,
Bad = FAA issues, small parts nickel and dime you to death,

9 Kit Bash Good = Pick and choose best parts from anyone, flexibility
Bad = Cost

Are there other kits out there I am missing? I would like to have a large baggage, gross weight of 2300 or so (experimental you can set what you want, but if the kit manuf is claiming a much lower GW you might have trouble justifying a higher GW). What other ideas do we know of? I think Legend Cubs are all Light Sport. I need the 2300 GW to do floats, camping gear, and two people. My goal would be 1100 pounds empty with an 0-360 and interior like I had. I was at 1133 with everything and a 0-320. So I am thinking I need to save about 70 pounds from my last build, 35 for the larger engine and 35 to get below 1100. What do you think? I think I was pretty light before with the Smith Kit but I do think I could have saved some weight in the wings. They seemed heavy to me. But, I had no concerns setting my GW at 2300 either so maybe it is a trade off. However I do not remember any Cub in-flight wing failures so perhaps the wing is overbuilt.

Thanks for your inputs

Bill

Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

 

[Bill Rusk]

Guess I need to update this a bit. I will try to do so tomorrow.

Bill

 

[Bill Rusk]

Folks


This post was from 2011, so 11 almost 12 years ago. Updates are in red. This is just my opinion and everyone is free to argue my perspective.

Lets talk about building a Supercub.

Options

1 Scratch Good = lots of options, full flexibility, cheap intro and possibly final cost
Bad = Time, resale. not much has changed on this, except there are far more "parts" available. ie it is easier now to buy a seat, or a landing gear, rather than fabricate every single part

2 Backcountry kit Good = fairly complete, reasonable quality, available, support, strong, previous experience
most of these are not even close to a cub anymore. It has evolved into a different airplane. It is much larger and heavier than a cub. If that is what you want and need it fills a niche. It is difficult to build and most all that I have heard about in the last 6 years have engaged professional help to build.
Bad = could be lighter

3 Dakota Cub Kit Good = company has excellent reputation, very few kits have been produced. It uses all certified parts, so limited ability to customize the kit unless you do that yourself
Bad = not much info, weight?

4 Cub Crafters Good = Quality, Company, complete, support, resale, all good
Bad = Cost, Gross weight limit? The EX2 and 3 have a higher GW and more fuel now so they are more suited to longer X/C missions. Very little to no ability to customize the kit to your mission. It is pretty much...."here is what you get take it or leave it"

5 Javron Good = Don't know much, Buhler? anyone Javron is now well established and an excellent reputation for quality. Delivery schedules are not usually met. He is struggling to keep up with demand. One big advantage is he will build the kit (he starts with a stock Supercub) however you want. Want toebrakes, dual door, more fuel, upper baggage, no baggage at all, etc? He is very flexible it terms of customization. This allows you to build exactly what you want, not simply whatever is available.
Bad = see above The only bad I have ever heard is he misses his promised deadlines/delivery times.

6 Spraker Good = Cheap start, flexibility,
Bad = Time. I don't think Spraker is still welding frames. Not an option anymore

7 Wag Aero Good = Cost, available,
Bad = Time, more of a J-3 than a SC No significant change

8 Rebuild Good = Find a fuselage and redo it, quick start, light,
Bad = FAA issues, small parts nickel and dime you to death, no real change here except certified is probably not the lightest

9 Kit Bash Good = Pick and choose best parts from anyone, flexibility
Bad = Cost and compatibility. Many of the kit companies have evolved so that if you buy a part from XYZ it will not fit on your part from ABC

Northstar - a derivative of the cub. A little heavy, but a good kit that has now been around a while

Legend Cub - this company puts out an excellent kit. That kit has evolved from what basically started as a J-3 into much more of a Supercub now. I am not really sure of empty weights, gross weights, cargo, and fuel capacities, but it would certainly be worth looking into.

I understand Nick Smith is making kits again up in Canada. BBI aviation is the company but it appears the website has gone inactive.

Are there other kits out there I am missing? I would like to have a large baggage, gross weight of 2300 or so (experimental you can set what you want, but if the kit manuf is claiming a much lower GW you might have trouble justifying a higher GW). What other ideas do we know of? I think Legend Cubs are all Light Sport. See above I need the 2300 GW to do floats, camping gear, and two people. My goal would be 1100 pounds empty with an 0-360 and interior like I had. I came in at 1052 with the Javron kit. I was at 1133 with everything and a 0-320. So I am thinking I need to save about 70 pounds from my last build, 35 for the larger engine and 35 to get below 1100. What do you think? I think I was pretty light before with the Smith Kit but I do think I could have saved some weight in the wings. They seemed heavy to me. But, I had no concerns setting my GW at 2300 either so maybe it is a trade off. However I do not remember any Cub in-flight wing failures so perhaps the wing is overbuilt.

Thanks for your inputs

To see where this went view the thread "Building a Javron Cub". https://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub

Hope this helps

Bill

 

[skywagon8a]

Bill,
Part of the EAB building process is proving to the FAA that you (and your helpers) built 51% or more of the airplane. An alternative to proving this 51% is for the "kit" to be certified as a "kit" by the FAA with the producer of the kit. Does Jay at Javron have this 51% approval from the FAA?

 

[Bill Rusk]

Pete - I don't think Javron has ever gone through the process of having it certified 51%, but no one has ever had any problem getting the 51% and repairman certificate to the best of my knowledge.

Bill

 

[flyin_jibbs]

Folks


This post was from 2011, so 11 almost 12 years ago. Updates are in red. This is just my opinion and everyone is free to argue my perspective.

Lets talk about building a Supercub.

Options

1 Scratch Good = lots of options, full flexibility, cheap intro and possibly final cost
Bad = Time, resale. not much has changed on this, except there are far more "parts" available. ie it is easier now to buy a seat, or a landing gear, rather than fabricate every single part

2 Backcountry kit Good = fairly complete, reasonable quality, available, support, strong, previous experience
most of these are not even close to a cub anymore. It has evolved into a different airplane. It is much larger and heavier than a cub. If that is what you want and need it fills a niche. It is difficult to build and most all that I have heard about in the last 6 years have engaged professional help to build.
Bad = could be lighter

3 Dakota Cub Kit Good = company has excellent reputation, very few kits have been produced. It uses all certified parts, so limited ability to customize the kit unless you do that yourself
Bad = not much info, weight?

4 Cub Crafters Good = Quality, Company, complete, support, resale, all good
Bad = Cost, Gross weight limit? The EX2 and 3 have a higher GW and more fuel now so they are more suited to longer X/C missions. Very little to no ability to customize the kit to your mission. It is pretty much...."here is what you get take it or leave it"

5 Javron Good = Don't know much, Buhler? anyone Javron is now well established and an excellent reputation for quality. Delivery schedules are not usually met. He is struggling to keep up with demand. One big advantage is he will build the kit (he starts with a stock Supercub) however you want. Want toebrakes, dual door, more fuel, upper baggage, no baggage at all, etc? He is very flexible it terms of customization. This allows you to build exactly what you want, not simply whatever is available.
Bad = see above The only bad I have ever heard is he misses his promised deadlines/delivery times.

6 Spraker Good = Cheap start, flexibility,
Bad = Time. I don't think Spraker is still welding frames. Not an option anymore

7 Wag Aero Good = Cost, available,
Bad = Time, more of a J-3 than a SC No significant change

8 Rebuild Good = Find a fuselage and redo it, quick start, light,
Bad = FAA issues, small parts nickel and dime you to death, no real change here except certified is probably not the lightest

9 Kit Bash Good = Pick and choose best parts from anyone, flexibility
Bad = Cost and compatibility. Many of the kit companies have evolved so that if you buy a part from XYZ it will not fit on your part from ABC

Northstar - a derivative of the cub. A little heavy, but a good kit that has now been around a while

Legend Cub - this company puts out an excellent kit. That kit has evolved from what basically started as a J-3 into much more of a Supercub now. I am not really sure of empty weights, gross weights, cargo, and fuel capacities, but it would certainly be worth looking into.

I understand Nick Smith is making kits again up in Canada. BBI aviation is the company but it appears the website has gone inactive.

Are there other kits out there I am missing? I would like to have a large baggage, gross weight of 2300 or so (experimental you can set what you want, but if the kit manuf is claiming a much lower GW you might have trouble justifying a higher GW). What other ideas do we know of? I think Legend Cubs are all Light Sport. See above I need the 2300 GW to do floats, camping gear, and two people. My goal would be 1100 pounds empty with an 0-360 and interior like I had. I came in at 1052 with the Javron kit. I was at 1133 with everything and a 0-320. So I am thinking I need to save about 70 pounds from my last build, 35 for the larger engine and 35 to get below 1100. What do you think? I think I was pretty light before with the Smith Kit but I do think I could have saved some weight in the wings. They seemed heavy to me. But, I had no concerns setting my GW at 2300 either so maybe it is a trade off. However I do not remember any Cub in-flight wing failures so perhaps the wing is overbuilt.

Thanks for your inputs

To see where this went view the thread "Building a Javron Cub". https://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?40889-Building-a-Javron-Cub

Hope this helps

Bill

Hey Bill,

Thanks for all your work and input on this thread over a long range of years, really cool to read! Im doing my research on a kit for a hopefully near future build, biggest hurdle of course is the freakin costs of these planes these days my goodness!!! I don't know how all these kids have these beautiful bush planes these days....

Anyway, I have kind of narrowed down my search to Javron and Backcountry SC R3. Im curious as to why you opine that the BCSC is so difficult to build? Speaking with Bruce on the phone it didnt sound too complicated with wings coming pre-built aside from the fuel tanks not being installed, etc. What in particular makes them so difficult? I would be a first time kit builder but I am very capable and experienced with tools outside of fiberglass work and only recently learned basic riveting skills.

I currently own and fly, but did not build, an RV7 which is a true joy to fly but the big tire life is pulling at my heart strings! Im just pounding my head against a wall trying to understand how to pull it off financially. I will likely have to do a slow build, buy as you go kinda thing and hopefully my IFR RV triples in value in the mean time :lol:

Cheers

 

[Scott A]

I ended up Javron for the quality and the price - not sure the price of the Backcountry these days but the Javron price hasn't gone up in some time - he said it was supposed to go up but as of this very moment the order form is the same on the website as when I ordered mine (except the PSTOL flaps you buy that option direct from Airframes now shipped directly to you). Not saying he will honor the price but just a hunch it is way lower than Backcountry - could be wrong on that also.

Hey Bill,

Thanks for all your work and input on this thread over a long range of years, really cool to read! Im doing my research on a kit for a hopefully near future build, biggest hurdle of course is the freakin costs of these planes these days my goodness!!! I don't know how all these kids have these beautiful bush planes these days....

Anyway, I have kind of narrowed down my search to Javron and Backcountry SC R3. Im curious as to why you opine that the BCSC is so difficult to build? Speaking with Bruce on the phone it didnt sound too complicated with wings coming pre-built aside from the fuel tanks not being installed, etc. What in particular makes them so difficult? I would be a first time kit builder but I am very capable and experienced with tools outside of fiberglass work and only recently learned basic riveting skills.

I currently own and fly, but did not build, an RV7 which is a true joy to fly but the big tire life is pulling at my heart strings! Im just pounding my head against a wall trying to understand how to pull it off financially. I will likely have to do a slow build, buy as you go kinda thing and hopefully my IFR RV triples in value in the mean time :lol:

Cheers

 

[flyin_jibbs]

I ended up Javron for the quality and the price - not sure the price of the Backcountry these days but the Javron price hasn't gone up in some time - he said it was supposed to go up but as of this very moment the order form is the same on the website as when I ordered mine (except the PSTOL flaps you buy that option direct from Airframes now shipped directly to you). Not saying he will honor the price but just a hunch it is way lower than Backcountry - could be wrong on that also.

Yeah I am really leaning that way. I love the ability to get your frame kitted out the way you want it and all the other feedback is nothing but outstanding. I’m pretty sold on Javron.

 

[Scott A]

I picked my fuselage up a few weeks ago - his shop is very nice. They pretty much make every part in house. The welding is very high quality. The only 'complaint' I hear and Jay said it himself - he can be overly optimistic on lead times so take those with a grain of salt. But hopefully things keep getting better. His station three, as he called it, welder was sick for an extended period end of year into January so that set him back a little again.

Yeah I am really leaning that way. I love the ability to get your frame kitted out the way you want it and all the other feedback is nothing but outstanding. I’m pretty sold on Javron.

 

[flyin_jibbs]

I picked my fuselage up a few weeks ago - his shop is very nice. They pretty much make every part in house. The welding is very high quality. The only 'complaint' I hear and Jay said it himself - he can be overly optimistic on lead times so take those with a grain of salt. But hopefully things keep getting better. His station three, as he called it, welder was sick for an extended period end of year into January so that set him back a little again.

that’s ok, the lead time on my wallet is not that great either hahaha! I might give him a call just to chat about the process options.

 

[Scott A]

I hear you.. engine prices have gone insane also

that’s ok, the lead time on my wallet is not that great either hahaha! I might give him a call just to chat about the process options.

 

[flyin_jibbs]

I hear you.. engine prices have gone insane also

Had a good long chat with Jay. Super excited about the plan ive come up with but dang it he's a solid year+ out, 40 builds in line . Was going to sell my RV7 right quick but think maybe ill have to keep it a while just to keep flying while I wait. He had a lot of great info to share that is not found on the forum, at least that I have come across. My excitement is at an all time high!

 

[tempdoug]

Had a good long chat with Jay. Super excited about the plan ive come up with but dang it he's a solid year+ out, 40 builds in line . Was going to sell my RV7 right quick but think maybe ill have to keep it a while just to keep flying while I wait. He had a lot of great info to share that is not found on the forum, at least that I have come across. My excitement is at an all time high!

share some of the info so its on the forum. thats how it works.

 

[Scott A]

Nice! Glad you have a plan in motion. Wow 40, but that tells you something about the quality I think.

Had a good long chat with Jay. Super excited about the plan ive come up with but dang it he's a solid year+ out, 40 builds in line . Was going to sell my RV7 right quick but think maybe ill have to keep it a while just to keep flying while I wait. He had a lot of great info to share that is not found on the forum, at least that I have come across. My excitement is at an all time high!

 

[flyin_jibbs]

share some of the info so its on the forum. thats how it works.

Yeah I know... Nothing earth shattering, most notably is just base price has only been raised to 51.5 due to substantial increase in materials cost. He said the cost from Grove on wheels and brakes has nearly doubled. And hardware is through the roof. For example one cotter pin he uses (something like over 200 per machine?) has gone from .13 a piece to .43 a piece so when buying in mass bulk that can really add up. Overall only a 3k increase is amazing IMO. He's clearly not interested in gouging the market as it seems others are... And as Scott previously mentioned the price on motor's has risen exponentially too (I know this is well known). One other thing is (and I believe this was mentioned as a possibility in this thread) is that he has switched from Poly Fiber to Airtech Coatings for the most part which was the direction I was going to go regardless. The rest was mainly custom stuff I was asking about that I am sure is out there (but I personally haven't read every thread possible so some of it was attention grabbing to me, for example he offers a bit of a builders assist deal as well).

Nice! Glad you have a plan in motion. Wow 40, but that tells you something about the quality I think.

Yeah Scott, that was my EXACT thought as well. Coupled with his integrity regarding pricing and just overall interest in helping us all get out to enjoy this hobby is awesome. Unfortunately for me, Im not blessed with patience haha, this is going to be a painfully long wait. I could get a BCSC R3 kit come June after speaking with Bruce, but its damn near double the price for the base kit from my understanding.. I will bite my tongue and wait for Jay!

 

[Steve Pierce]

Yep, MS24665-132 (AN380-2-2) that I have paid .04 each forever are now .23 and that is just one example. Don't get me started on AN363 steel lock nuts.