Build a CUB options
- Thread starter Bill Rusk
- Start date
Bob Breeden
Registered User
Alaska
A lot of this thread is about different build options - to git 'er done...
Another entirely different aspect of this is: What can be done with design adjustments on an Experimental that cannot be done on a Certified Airplane?
Another entirely different aspect of this is: What can be done with design adjustments on an Experimental that cannot be done on a Certified Airplane?
mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
one thing I have wondered about is in the cabin area, getting rid of all the cross and diagonal tubes, and making some sort of light (carbon?) panels that serve as the bracing & interior & exterior all in one...
never played with the stuff.. so....
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
The difference is that on an experimental amateur built you just do it. On a certified airplane it is the paper work that needs to be done to satisfy the FAA to be able to keep it certified.
Bob Breeden
Registered User
Alaska
skywagon8a,
My point exactly....
We incorporated a lot of them on our 4th place Valdez Experimental plane.....
What would those Cub Pilots comtemplating a new plane desire to incorporate?
How could this be best done with the various options that Bill has laid out?
Bob
My point exactly....
We incorporated a lot of them on our 4th place Valdez Experimental plane.....
What would those Cub Pilots comtemplating a new plane desire to incorporate?
How could this be best done with the various options that Bill has laid out?
Bob
Amy
SPONSOR
WI/MN/SD
As we work towards redoing the website, making information easier to find and share is a top concern. Additionally, we will be setting the website up so that we can easily update it so that out-of-date materials are no longer an issue. If you are interested in the information about kit contents, feel free to PM me so I can email it to you.
To some extent, there is the ability to "mix and match" fuselages and wings but there are some limitations. For instance, if you want the 2300-lb gross weight model, there is only one fuselage we will sell for that because it has been tested to the number and we know it's good. For the 2,050 lb model, you can choose either widebody or standard because both fuselages are good for that number.
Builders are a creative lot so I have no doubt that there will be some interesting modifications out there. One nice thing is that you can use essentially anything a certified Super Cub can use, so parts are easy to find (then again, if you enjoy building, you may not want to buy parts because you would want to build them!).
We feel the worth of our kit is the extent to which it has been tested and the fact that every part we supply with it has been built to an FAA-approved quality manual (for our PMAs). You know what you're getting so you minimize the amount of time you spend acting as a flight test engineer or test pilot. For some, this may be ideal, but for some, the joy is in the testing and tweaking which you can certainly do on a Super 18 kit as well, but we have tried to make it as complete as possible to make it less intimidating for a first-time builder who has little to no Cub experience to take on.
Just a few thoughts for you all!
I am looking forward to following Bill's next build no matter what he chooses 8)
Bill Rusk
BENEFACTOR
Sandpoint, Idaho
To all the folks that have posted on this thread, Thank you.
Mike - regarding a carbon fiber interior - my understanding is that sometimes when it breaks it does so in shards that could impale the occupants. I would want to research that before I put it all around me. I do think there is application for carbon fiber.
I have opted to go with the Javron kit at this point. It offers me the greatest flexibility to make changes and incorporate some modifications that are important to me. The proximity to my home is also a factor as it gives me an opportunity to actually be present for some of the build up and saves on shipping. Jay DeRosier has been (and is) very receptive to mods and variances to his kit. I will be working closely with him, and also ksecub, to build a lightweight wing capable of safely operating at 2300pds GW. Our goal will be to build a fully capable bush cub with a 2300pd GW with an empty weight of less than 1100 pds. This will not be a contest cub per se but rather something that anyone else could build and fly. Furthermore it will be close enough to the original Piper specifications that parts should be readily interchangeable. There will not be anything particularly unusual about my cub, or the kits that come from Javron, except close attention to weight. We are not trying to duplicate the Carbon Cub (it would be really hard to outdo them) but I will be watching the ounces closely to end up with a light, strong, great flying Cub built the way I want. A lot like the last one. I came in at 1135 +/- on my Smithkit (Backcountry now) and I believe it will be possible to come in under 1100 pounds with 31's, safety cables, float fittings, and all the other mods. It is my belief that this will result in a great flying, useful, go to Alaska (on floats) cub.
Standby for a new thread on "Building a Javron Cub" There I will post all the mods I am doing, why I am doing them, weights, cost, etc.
I agree with Bob Breeden that there are lots of ideas out there and one of the great advantages with experimental Cubs is the ability to do just that. Experiment. I thought Bobs last Cub was very innovative and that he has pushed the envelope further, along with Wayne Mackey, Doug Keller, Dave Caulkins, Jerry Burr, Jim Richmond and a host of others. Thanks to all the guys pushing the boundaries.
My new Cub will not be anything new. Just a good, solid, lightweight Supercub. But once again I'll try to share what I learn along the way.
Hope this helps
Bill
Mike - regarding a carbon fiber interior - my understanding is that sometimes when it breaks it does so in shards that could impale the occupants. I would want to research that before I put it all around me. I do think there is application for carbon fiber.
I have opted to go with the Javron kit at this point. It offers me the greatest flexibility to make changes and incorporate some modifications that are important to me. The proximity to my home is also a factor as it gives me an opportunity to actually be present for some of the build up and saves on shipping. Jay DeRosier has been (and is) very receptive to mods and variances to his kit. I will be working closely with him, and also ksecub, to build a lightweight wing capable of safely operating at 2300pds GW. Our goal will be to build a fully capable bush cub with a 2300pd GW with an empty weight of less than 1100 pds. This will not be a contest cub per se but rather something that anyone else could build and fly. Furthermore it will be close enough to the original Piper specifications that parts should be readily interchangeable. There will not be anything particularly unusual about my cub, or the kits that come from Javron, except close attention to weight. We are not trying to duplicate the Carbon Cub (it would be really hard to outdo them) but I will be watching the ounces closely to end up with a light, strong, great flying Cub built the way I want. A lot like the last one. I came in at 1135 +/- on my Smithkit (Backcountry now) and I believe it will be possible to come in under 1100 pounds with 31's, safety cables, float fittings, and all the other mods. It is my belief that this will result in a great flying, useful, go to Alaska (on floats) cub.
Standby for a new thread on "Building a Javron Cub" There I will post all the mods I am doing, why I am doing them, weights, cost, etc.
I agree with Bob Breeden that there are lots of ideas out there and one of the great advantages with experimental Cubs is the ability to do just that. Experiment. I thought Bobs last Cub was very innovative and that he has pushed the envelope further, along with Wayne Mackey, Doug Keller, Dave Caulkins, Jerry Burr, Jim Richmond and a host of others. Thanks to all the guys pushing the boundaries.
My new Cub will not be anything new. Just a good, solid, lightweight Supercub. But once again I'll try to share what I learn along the way.
Hope this helps
Bill
chilecubdriver
Registered User
Santiago de Chile
Bob Breeden
Registered User
Alaska
Sounds Good, Bill!
mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
rule #1 don't crash...
the plexi windows brake sharp too....
the aluminum is sharp when balled up....
the chrommolly is sharp when balled up....
you can always build it out of 1/2" steel plate...... ;-)
compromises....
Jim Miller
Registered User
Normandy TN
Bill
This may have already been suggested but I would build using the best available without being tied to a kit.
I would start with a tack welded fuselage from a PMA scource if possible like univair, alaska airframes etc.
Build wings from any of several suppliers. The other major airframe pieces like tail or landing gear can be purchased in kit form or fully welded depending on how much fab credit you need. You could even use some old piper parts keeping in mind the 51 % rule as they exact a heavy penalty on the build credit calculations.
Jim Miller
This may have already been suggested but I would build using the best available without being tied to a kit.
I would start with a tack welded fuselage from a PMA scource if possible like univair, alaska airframes etc.
Build wings from any of several suppliers. The other major airframe pieces like tail or landing gear can be purchased in kit form or fully welded depending on how much fab credit you need. You could even use some old piper parts keeping in mind the 51 % rule as they exact a heavy penalty on the build credit calculations.
Jim Miller
Jim Miller
Registered User
Normandy TN
Bill
I made the above post before I discovered your decision to build a kit. I need to check into Javron
myself for possible parts for my project. I had never heard of them before.
Jim
I made the above post before I discovered your decision to build a kit. I need to check into Javron
myself for possible parts for my project. I had never heard of them before.
Jim
Bill Rusk
BENEFACTOR
Sandpoint, Idaho
Jim
I have been very impressed with Jay at Javron. I believe I will be able to get the "best of the best" (if you will) all from one place, to my specifications. As Crash said it is tough to beat the original Piper Supercub and that is pretty much what Javron is building. So I get to start from the basic Cub and make the changes that I want. I don't have to settle for changes I do not want because they are already incorporated into the kit. Jay is working on putting together a list of mods he will do and also the weights and cost for each. So ultimately you will get to build the cub you want from a menu of available options, with some idea of the penalty you will incur on the weight.
As I mentioned Jay is currently working on building a light wing as well. He told me he took 5 pounds out of the tail feathers by going back to Piper Specs. He understands weight.
Although Jay DeRosier (ie Javron) has been in the background, supplying parts, fuselages and even full kits, he is coming into the limelight in a big way. He has already established an excellent track record of customer service and high quality parts. We will be hearing a lot more from this company in the future.
Crash - I agree, that is what I am doing but I want to stay experimental so I have more options to use the latest and best equipment and parts. LED's, Dynon, Carbon fibers, batteries, alternators etc. I have no heartburn with certified aircraft but in this case I feel I have more options, lower costs and fewer headaches by going experimental. It will not be as quick as a rebuild but I feel it will be worth it. Everything is a trade off.
Bill
I have been very impressed with Jay at Javron. I believe I will be able to get the "best of the best" (if you will) all from one place, to my specifications. As Crash said it is tough to beat the original Piper Supercub and that is pretty much what Javron is building. So I get to start from the basic Cub and make the changes that I want. I don't have to settle for changes I do not want because they are already incorporated into the kit. Jay is working on putting together a list of mods he will do and also the weights and cost for each. So ultimately you will get to build the cub you want from a menu of available options, with some idea of the penalty you will incur on the weight.
As I mentioned Jay is currently working on building a light wing as well. He told me he took 5 pounds out of the tail feathers by going back to Piper Specs. He understands weight.
Although Jay DeRosier (ie Javron) has been in the background, supplying parts, fuselages and even full kits, he is coming into the limelight in a big way. He has already established an excellent track record of customer service and high quality parts. We will be hearing a lot more from this company in the future.
Crash - I agree, that is what I am doing but I want to stay experimental so I have more options to use the latest and best equipment and parts. LED's, Dynon, Carbon fibers, batteries, alternators etc. I have no heartburn with certified aircraft but in this case I feel I have more options, lower costs and fewer headaches by going experimental. It will not be as quick as a rebuild but I feel it will be worth it. Everything is a trade off.
Bill
mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
unfixing the decades of learned fixes is not necessarily a wise thing................................
the inboard ends of stabs should really have the newer style rib or else the new fabric collapses it...
on another thought on them, i bet going to a thinner 4130 for ribs over the mild steel would be a good thing....
Marty57
PATRON
Nipomo, Ca
Bill,
What changes did he do to the tail ? I built mine to the drawings on Christians site, made my own ribs from mild steel by forming over hard wood form, both easy and light. There is a tendency to use 4130 in place place or mild steel"just because" that I have had to fight. I used 4130 to form the end of j3 style aileron hangers for more strength. Worked ok bit the hangers could not be twisted and bent onto alignment as easily due to the more modern 4130. You are right, Piper did adopt right and some improvements aren't necessarily a good idea.
Marty57
What changes did he do to the tail ? I built mine to the drawings on Christians site, made my own ribs from mild steel by forming over hard wood form, both easy and light. There is a tendency to use 4130 in place place or mild steel"just because" that I have had to fight. I used 4130 to form the end of j3 style aileron hangers for more strength. Worked ok bit the hangers could not be twisted and bent onto alignment as easily due to the more modern 4130. You are right, Piper did adopt right and some improvements aren't necessarily a good idea.
Marty57
mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
the point is when you use stronger material like 4130 to replace a soft steel part, you should be able to go thinner and lighter and still have the same strength.....
D.A.
Registered User
Free America
A real eye opener for me and an illustration of that point is Jason. Ever watch him in a STOL contest? He is usually going up against the gnarliest Cubs in the land and usually beats them or at least he's right in there with them with a stock - - - BONE stock Cub. He's lightened it where he could and has 31" BWs but other than that I think it's completely stock. Oh yeah, did I mention it has an O-290?!?! Now that being said, a lot of the performance advantage of Jason's Cub is the guy sit'n in the front seat but to Crash's point, straight from Piper they're darned impressive!
Marty57
PATRON
Nipomo, Ca
Mike,
That's been one of the biggest things I have been learning. Changing just to change is not good. On the aileron hangers I didn't like how flexible the ends were with mild steel so I went with 4130. It was harder to work but ok with that. It was "ten steps" latter that I discovered my great idea made adjusting the alignment more difficult. It worked out but when I watched the Cub Club j3 wing video (for the 5th or so time) that I figured why they did it that way. D.A. comments about Jason's success with good old Pipers kind of hammers home to me to think twice about a change. I guess my wood wing is a different deal alltogether.
Marty57
That's been one of the biggest things I have been learning. Changing just to change is not good. On the aileron hangers I didn't like how flexible the ends were with mild steel so I went with 4130. It was harder to work but ok with that. It was "ten steps" latter that I discovered my great idea made adjusting the alignment more difficult. It worked out but when I watched the Cub Club j3 wing video (for the 5th or so time) that I figured why they did it that way. D.A. comments about Jason's success with good old Pipers kind of hammers home to me to think twice about a change. I guess my wood wing is a different deal alltogether.
Marty57
Jim Miller
Registered User
Normandy TN
I looked at the Javron site and saw something I need on the first page. They have a great looking trim yoke
and a very good price. I plan to order one next week.
and a very good price. I plan to order one next week.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
A large percentage of my Backcountry kit came from Javron. Workmanship and quality is superb. I ordered the extended steps with my kit. When the kit arrived the landing gear had some bushings welded in for bolts to hold the steps on. But, no steps. I figured that I had misunderstood what I was to get and did not ask. Several months later I received a phone call asking if I still wanted my steps? Of course! They arrived in the form of a triangular extrusion with lightening holes cut in. Excellent, I will use them on both my landing gear and floats. I would not hesitate to do business with them in the future.
aktango58
FRIEND
9aa9
Bill,
I got to do some real flying this weekend. Needed it with all the storm of stinky I seem to be in.
Anyway, as I was rolling around the ridge line at 4,000 feet on a heather patch that looked appealing to 31" tires, I came to a thought about controls in the cub:
I like having the carb heat where I can advance the throttle and reach a finger forward to push the carb heat in, or even a slight forward reach with your hand. Mine is on the dash.
I did not like the early Husky ones that skinned my big hands when I used it, so it needs to be out a bit where you can get to it quick.
The next morning as I did my preflight, (last landing was over a set of trees to a brake-on touch down to get stopped before the ditch), I was looking over the gear attach fittings for damage. I tend to do this more serious when I am really flying in the tough stuff. As I looked them over I found myself moving the brake lines to see the inner attach points. Why did we do this???? My new frame has the little tabs above the cluster for firewall type fittings for the brake lines to come out, instead of through the fabric below. I very nice modification.
Anyway, some minor items that maybe have been covered, but are things I thought about.
Take care, and glad to have you guys to communicate with.
God bless!
I got to do some real flying this weekend. Needed it with all the storm of stinky I seem to be in.
Anyway, as I was rolling around the ridge line at 4,000 feet on a heather patch that looked appealing to 31" tires, I came to a thought about controls in the cub:
I like having the carb heat where I can advance the throttle and reach a finger forward to push the carb heat in, or even a slight forward reach with your hand. Mine is on the dash.
I did not like the early Husky ones that skinned my big hands when I used it, so it needs to be out a bit where you can get to it quick.
The next morning as I did my preflight, (last landing was over a set of trees to a brake-on touch down to get stopped before the ditch), I was looking over the gear attach fittings for damage. I tend to do this more serious when I am really flying in the tough stuff. As I looked them over I found myself moving the brake lines to see the inner attach points. Why did we do this???? My new frame has the little tabs above the cluster for firewall type fittings for the brake lines to come out, instead of through the fabric below. I very nice modification.
Anyway, some minor items that maybe have been covered, but are things I thought about.
Take care, and glad to have you guys to communicate with.
God bless!
N
Nocub
When comparing the Javron kit to CC, Backcountry, etc. how does their kit compare with regards to including the smaller items which all add up in price. i.e. windshield, cowling,trim strips, seats, etc.
