Build a CUB options

[Bill Rusk]

Folks

Lets talk about building a Supercub.

Options

1 Scratch Good = lots of options, full flexibility, cheap intro and possibly final cost
Bad = Time, resale

2 Backcountry kit Good = fairly complete, reasonable quality, available, support,
strong, previous experience
Bad = could be lighter

3 Dakota Cub Kit Good = company has excellent reputation,
Bad = not much info, weight?

4 Cub Crafters Good = Quality, Company, complete, support, resale, all good
Bad = Cost, Gross weight limit?

5 Javron Good = Don't know much, Buhler? anyone
Bad = see above

6 Spraker Good = Cheap start, flexibility,
Bad = Time

7 Wag Aero Good = Cost, available,
Bad = Time, more of a J-3 than a SC

8 Rebuild Good = Find a fuselage and redo it, quick start, light,
Bad = FAA issues, small parts nickel and dime you to death,

9 Kit Bash Good = Pick and choose best parts from anyone, flexibility
Bad = Cost

Are there other kits out there I am missing? I would like to have a large baggage, gross weight of 2300 or so (experimental you can set what you want, but if the kit manuf is claiming a much lower GW you might have trouble justifying a higher GW). What other ideas do we know of? I think Legend Cubs are all Light Sport. I need the 2300 GW to do floats, camping gear, and two people. My goal would be 1100 pounds empty with an 0-360 and interior like I had. I was at 1133 with everything and a 0-320. So I am thinking I need to save about 70 pounds from my last build, 35 for the larger engine and 35 to get below 1100. What do you think? I think I was pretty light before with the Smith Kit but I do think I could have saved some weight in the wings. They seemed heavy to me. But, I had no concerns setting my GW at 2300 either so maybe it is a trade off. However I do not remember any Cub in-flight wing failures so perhaps the wing is overbuilt.

Thanks for your inputs

Bill

 

[kevin]

Bill, what about an SQ2. They are impressive. I'm not sure if they are part of some of the other kits above?????

 

[DW]

Bill lets drive up to Javron and take a look see.

DW

 

[410tj]

Bill, check experimental aircraft metal fabrication, they have a web site. He makes a PA-12 fuselage and does about the nicest work you will find anywhere. You could have him change the wing angle to super cub specs and maybe end up with what you are looking for. He is very fair with his pricing. You could then get a wing kit elsewhere and build it light. DW knows him well.

More info?, give me a call. Tim James 503 201 8623

 

[Bill Rusk]

I got the first part for my new Cub from DW. A new Steve's Gascolator. Thanks DW.

I agree. Lets do it next week. I'll call.

Bill

 

[bluetoysguy]

It might be worth your time to check out Javron in the Brainerd area. We visited Jay and his shop(s) back in May, and I have to say it is pretty impressive. I think there's a lot of flexibility in terms of what he'll build you. He is just kind of getting his full kit with wings and all into production, but he seems very capable and knowledgeable.

Worth a look for sure IMHO.

 

[Marty57]

Bill,
From a scratch builder you are right; very flexible but high time. A couple of things about Wag. Yes, Their Sport Trainer is more Cub than Super Cub but could easily be modified for Super Cub Wings. The 2+2 like I am building could be set up like a PA12 or tandem seating pretty easy (39" wide up front, about 36" at rear seat, doors both sides). Use Christians drawings for the sticks and you would be all set. Advantage to Wag is your location; Poplar Grove right? I grew up in Des Plaines; know the area. You could pick up fuselage from Wag pretty easy. Gross Weight is advertised as 2200 so your need for floats would fit. Talk to Tim about 2+2. The Wag set up does not have jack screw or flaps but easy to add as I did. All stock parts will fit for Jack Screw, no changes needed at all, just weld on the fittings for the cables and what not. I am currently doing the flaps for my wing; all stock parts will fit. I'll have CAD drawings when finished (Tim is begging me to do his 2+2). You are welcome to any of my drawings should you go that rout. You can use any PA18 wing on the 2+2 fuselage. Standard SC tail Feathers and landing gear are also used. By changing to tandem, adding flaps and jack screw trim, and building up a SC wings (non certified parts) you should not have any problems meeting the 51% rule and save a lot of time. Give Tom O'Neil a call at Wag Aero, he is there go-to guy. I have every step posted on my web site below or let me know if I can help in any way.
Marty57

 

[aktango58]

Dakota Cub: Bill, I like the work on the parts I have from them. Mark came go Graham TX last winter and instructed/directed us pilots on wing assembly, (talk about someone with patients). Mark was VERY smart, knowledgeable, and could cite very good reasoning on why his birds are built with particular changes. Don't overlook them, and it is a 2300 lb cub.

Another option: if you get a flier, do a rummage sale cub- collect parts from the corners of every hanger around and build the cub from left over pieces!

You have started with one freebie, maybe there are more out there you just need to find!

 

[Iflylower]

Do it right!

Take the best of all worlds. Build the dream. You know so much more than before. Assemble, don't fabricate -you've done that. Get this in the air in minimum time. Were here to help!

 

[qsmx440]

Bill one or two thoughts. Did you enjoy the build so much you want to go through it again? I'm enjoying each new process but when it's done I will want to do something else. If the answer for you is "yes" then I'd think you would be biased towards scratch or picking parts and taking years. If the answer is no your really just ready for the "flying" part of building then a really complete "two weeks to first flight" type of kit would make sense. I was exagerating both those points.

 

[Bill Rusk]

Bluetoysguy - thanks. Planning a trip up there next week.

410tj - I remember him a little. DW knows him. I'll look into it. Thanks

Marty57 - Your work is fantastic. I will rethink Wag. Good points

George - I'll call Mark and talk to him tomorrow. Will report back

Cal - that is really where I am leaning

qsmx440 - Well yes and no. I did enjoy the build and I was planning to build again someday. I was hoping to fly my cub a little more before I started my next project but ....oh well I may be back in the barrel sooner than I planned.

 

[D.A.]

Well here's my 2 cents worth (might be overvalued). I don't think there is a wrong way to go, it just depends on your mission statement. However, I would however, like to compare the Spraker to just building a jig table and grinding, cutting, fitting, coping and tacking yourself. I've laid out the line geometry for a 20s biplane in a long afternoon. After that you just need to add whatever blocking you want to position your tubes, which could take another few hours. I know a guy that insists that if he's got all the materials and tools at the ready, he can start Saturday morning and have a tacked Cub frame on saw horses by Sunday afternoon. With online programs like MetalGeek, the coping process is cut to a fraction of just eye balling it. Once you've got it tacked, you're at the same place you'd be with a Spraker. Every time I figure it, I come up with a different number (see what I mean about the 2 cents) but there's something less than $1000 worth of tubing in a Cub fuselage I believe. I also believe Spraker charges $2500-ish + shipping. Now, nothing against the Spraker fuselage, a lot of guys have jump started their project with his work, it's just that you're paying somewhere around $1500 + shipping for his coping. To some people, having the frame tacked in place is a great boost, otherwise they might spend 6 months getting to that point, but if you can knuckle down and just blow through the coping and tacking yourself, you can save half the price of your new BWs.
Just my 2 cents worth - - - maybe 1.5 cents worth 8)

 

[Bill Rusk]

Thank you Tim and D.A.

What do we know about Bushwacker aircraft? They have a kit advertised called the Bushcub XP. Anyone building one? Anyone seen one, flown one, built one? So now we are up to 6 different kit manufactures. (seven if we count Legend)

1 CC Carbon Cub
2 Dakota Cub
3 Backcountry Cub
4 Javron Kits
5 Wag Aero
6 Bushwacker

Quite a change in the last 7 years.

Bill

 

[D.A.]

Does Dakota use Airframes Alaska (Airframes Inc.) fuselages?

 

[Bugs66]

Guys, I think Spraker is retired. I did see a partial fuselage on Barnstormers for $800. That may be it for him.

 

[NimpoCub]

Admirable spirit Bill.
You no sooner got your pants dry & you're lookin' to build another.
You said you want a 2300# Cub & you want your wings lighter? Hmmm.... give that lots of thought.
I like the idea of buying a cheaper/airworthy Cub & sell it when you're done. Building is very satisfying, but you know there are those bluebird days!!
Good on ya, even if ya ARE from Chi-town.

 

[qsmx440]

This is exciting like when your favorite long running TV show comes to an end (Cheers) but the next season "surprise" some of the actors come back in a different but better show with new ideas and adventures (Fraiser)! Go "No time for tears" BILL

 

[cubdriver2]

Bill,Bushwacker also will sell you a CNC tubing kit that fits together like a glove. I got to fly a 2300lb CC with standard wings on amphibs last weekend and thought it was a slug when flying, heavy on the controls and no fun to fly, I flew a 2002 CC with extended wing an 2100 amphib Wips and it was a blast to fly. Bill I guess I'm spoiled, I get 2 people 4 hrs fuel and camping gear in a 71 year old J4/1320 and it still puts a smile on my face for about 20.00hr. Go lighter and you'll need less power, fuel and money.

Glenn

 

[StewartB]

Why wouldn't you duplicate your lost plane? Have your preferences changed?

Stewart

 

[skywagon8a]

Bill,
The truck driver who delivered my TCOW/Backcountry kit told me that he dropped off a Wag kit on his way to me. He said that my kit was far superior to the Wag and that he was very favorably impressed. He was an airplane person and home builder/contractor who was delivering airplane kits for a retirement vocation.

I heard a rumor that Javron is the same outfit which built the Backcountry kits and that they were now building their own. The indication is that there is something going on between the two. That is all that I heard.

 

[Steve Pierce]

Bill, Call Mark at Dakota Cub and get the skinny on their kit. Same as their certified Super 18, Airframes fuselage, Dakota Wings and all Mark's new and improved parts like the jack screw etc.

Legend has a new Cub with flaps and the new light weight Lycoming engine. Darin Hart at Legend gave me some details at the Airman Show. You might give hime a call.

 

[flylowslow]

Bill, I would do a wide body Dakota and stick with the same scheme you had on your last one (which was awesome!) I bet you could have a flying airplane in less than 6 months.
Denny

 

[tempdoug]

My vote. Widebody with a stroker kit put in a 0-320. Kept light.

 

[Bill Rusk]

Logan - Yea baby, leave a light on, I'm still coming to see you. I think the Smith wings were heavy even at 2300 GW. Nice... but heavy.

QSMX440 - Thanks, I was not looking for a new gig but ....Oh well.... press on. It will be interesting and we'll make it fun. What the heck is a QSMX440 anyway? Sounds like quantum physics.

Glenn - shoot me a PM with your #. I'd like to pick your brain.

Stewart - Basically, that is what I am probably going to do. I don't think my preferences have changed significantly but the SC world certainly has. I really liked what I had, but to be smart, I am evaluating all my options and getting inputs before I make a decision. When I did my Smith Kit that was the only kit on the market. So much has changed in just 7 or 8 years. They did not have 0-340, 0-375, 0-390 engines, seven different kits to consider, slats, slots etc. It is amazing to me how much the supercub world has changed since you and I found this website. I was reading some posts yesterday from 02 and 03 and it was pretty interesting.

Steve - I will call Mark at Dakota today and will check legend as well. Did not know about their latest. I have heard lots of good things about the light sport legend kits. I would imagine that would carry over into their other products.

Denny - I am leaning away from the widebody at this time. According to Airframes Alaska a regular stock SC fuselage weighs 95pds, a fully modified frame came in at 109 and a modified widebody at 125. Basically a widebody adds 12+ pounds. Plus larger floor boards, interior panels, windshield, skylight, etc which may mean we are up to 20 extra pounds for the widebody. I am not that physically large so I can get by with a normal width fuselage. Also, I found that on my widebody Smithcub that it was too wide for my knees to rest against the sides in flight so I was not as comfortable in flight as a std width cub. This might not be an issue for someone with longer legs, say a guy that is 6'2 tall. I'm 5'8. I spoke to another widebody guy and he said he was considering padding on the sidewalls to make it more narrow thus giving him a way to rest his legs as well. In a perfect world maybe we would have the 2" wider fuselage but then where do you get a windshield, bootcowl, etc., to fit.
If I can lop 20 pounds off right at the start and make it more comfortable at the same time that is a win win situation. But a widebody may be much better for someone that is physically larger. Ahhh the beauty of the custom cub. Thanks for the kind words. It will be the same in many respects.

Bill

 

[spinner2]

Bill, As you know from our PM's earlier I decided to go the Carbon Cub EX route. The positives for me with this kit are the quality of the parts, excellent support from Cub Crafter's especially Mitch, the kit program manager. The light weight of the finished plane is a big one too. I expect to be around 925 pounds on the little furnished 6" tires. Combine that with their O-340 180 hp engine, electronic ingnition and a lightweight prop for big performance. I don't have experience with other kits but it looks like I'll have about 750 hours into my build. And I've got an easy 50 hours into changes I made to the kit, mostly in the panel and extended baggage and wiring. I didn't get one of their panel packages.

 

[behindpropellers]

Bill-

I'm curious what your driving decision was when you first started your (first) kit?

 

[Steve Pierce]

Bill, Some things about the Dakota kit:
1. It on the FAA approved kit list, the airplane is certified to FAA standards so you know the real gross weight and to what standard it was achieved.
2. It also went through the FAA flutter test and just barely passed so a bit of weight was added to the leading edge of the ailerons (which are stock PA18) and it passed the ground and flight test with no problems.
3. Almost all the parts are FAA/PMA so you know the standards they were built to and they have a market value since most are direct replacement on a Piper PA18.
4. Parts are available everywhere because they are mostly PA18 parts.
5. Kit comes with most all parts including all hardware, nuts, bolts, rivets, fittings, glass, raw aluminum etc. Only items not included but available at attractive rates are: engine/ engine accessories, propeller, paint, fabric covering materials, wheels/brakes/tires, avionics/instruments, and seat upholstery.
6. The build manual and drawings are amazing with hardware call outs and lots of detail.

I don't know enough about the other kits but do know this one so don't take this as a sales pitch but just a bit of personal experience.

 

[StewartB]

Interesting comments. The Supercub world has changed. My aircraft needs haven't. With the exception of 160hp vs 180hp there's nothing I'd do differently if I rebuilt my PA-12 today. The engine decision was a struggle from the time I bought my basket case so that's nothing new.

If I wanted a Cub I'd probably buy one of the many good certified Cubs that are on the market. I can buy existing cheaper than I can build the equal. That's hard to pass up. If I was motivated to build a kit I'd buy a Carbon Cub.

Have fun.

Stewart

 

[Bill Rusk]

Dan - Thanks for chiming in. That is a consideration and I know their stuff is absolutely first rate. Planning to get out there next week to talk to them.

Tim

Money. Seven years ago the cub market was red hot. A project on a trailer was 50K. A Cub with a high time engine and 35 year old fabric was a 100K. The market has softened somewhat since then but not much. I am pretty handy with tools (definitely NOT on par with Skup, Calkins, Starr, etc) but I felt I could build a high end cub closer to my budget. I did. It cost more than I anticipated and took longer (gee, what a surprise) but I ended up with the equivalent of a 200K cub for less than half the cost, and it was just the way I wanted, paint, instruments, interior, seats, no rust, no stripped out screws, etc.
I also wanted to learn more shop skills. I had built most of a Hatz biplane but I wanted to learn more. I would still like to learn more and improve my skills. I greatly admire the craftsmanship many folks on this site display. It is very rewarding for me to look at something I built (even if it is not as good as I would like). I had planned on building again once the cub was done but I was also planning to take a break and just enjoy flying my cub for a season or two. Back in the shop sooner than I planned but I want the end product bad enough to try again. I hope I have the stamina to make it to the end.

I appreciate all the inputs and don't hesitate to slap me upside the head if I am out to lunch. Hopefully others will benefit from the ideas, thought processes, and info in this thread. Lets put it all out there for everyone.

Thanks

Bill

 

[Bugs66]

Bill I think you are on the money (no pun) as far as reasons to build your own Cub. For me, money was huge factor plus I wanted to be the repairman for my aircraft and have the freedom of experimental rules. Scratch building is still the cheapest way for anyone into a "brand new" Super Cub. $40K is easily doable. This however is the long road and you have to be 110% committed and work on it every day, really every day and stay focused. If you don't it just becomes a point of contention and will aggravate you every day as airplanes fly over your head.

As far as your choices, as you say there are so many options now. In your shoes and having the assistance of insurance $, I would want to fast track this project. I am really looking forward to see what you choose!