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Booster Brakes

jrussl

BENEFACTOR
Madison, WI
Anyone have any experience with the North River Booster Brakes? I have not been happy with my braking performance and was considering a set of Steve's vented booster brakes. After a little more digging, I found my bird (PA18-150 w/ 850's) already has the North River upgrade.

Does anyone know how they compare to the Steve's boosters?

Jeff
 
Steve's require less maintenance because they are vented. North River is a closed system and you have to add or take fluid out with different temps and altitudes.
 
I have not tried any of the vented boosters, but other than having to add fluid every now and then to keep the pedal travel at a min., I have had no complaints w/ the North Rivers since putting them on many years ago. They are plenty powerful to get you in trouble if you mash them. Maybe because I don't set them rock hard, I have never had any binding issues w/ temp swings.
Chris
 
I have the Dakota Cub vented boosters and they have been 0 maintenence. Dakota, Steves and North River all have the same piston and displacement. If your brakes are not working right changing master cylinders probably wont make a difference. I would guess you have other problems.


 
Thanks guys! This is exactly what I was looking for.

The issue that caused me to make the previous post was a flight on Saturday in 3 degf temps. I guess that temperature changes affecting the brakes are just part of the deal with closed system brakes.

It is very nice to know that all three of the STC'd systems have the same piston sizes. I'll continue to troubleshoot to improve the warm weather performance.

Jeff
 
The north river brake boosters have all the power you need for braking. Just make sure they are well topped off and well bled. The other thing to look at is that you have heavy duty brake lines, otherwise during hard braking the normal lines expand and you lose pressure.
If you are tired of topping off the fluid constantly, then get a pair of Greg's (Mauleguy) experimental brake pads. The problem with the stock pads is that during a lot of heavy braking the pads wear out too fast and the fluid you are adding is to compensate for this. Greg's pads will last much longer and will enable you to top them off much less frequently.
 
Brake boosters

Add a 2" riser between body and cap to increase fluid amount might extend time between bleeding?
 
Problem we have in Texas is it is below freezing in the morning and 70 degrees in the afternoon. For that reason the vented system works better.
 
I am using the booster brakes on my experimental PA12 Amphib but found that with all the long lines, temperature changes could affect the braking or bind the brakes. I finally decided to put a common resevoir with a needle valve on the top of each brake pedal resevoir. That way I can open the needle valve to either let fluid in or out as required. I found that If I open the valve and depressed the brakes slightly then closed the valve with the pedal still very slightly depressed I could get just the feel I wanted.
DSC00595.JPG
 
I saw a certified L21 once that had a Pronce Albert can fastened to the side panel with a shut-off valve attached to the line going to the brake actuators. Worked good but looked funny. You have a much cleaner installation of the same concept. Good idea on depressing the pedal and closing the valve.
 
One thing that you can try is raising the tail and leveling the aircraft out . It will allow the most fluid into the booster. I found that just a few drops made a difference.
 
I have had the North River Booster Brakes for years here in Fairbanks and are quite happy with them. They would be nicer if they had a bigger reservoir. But I only run them (have Brakes) from April thur Oct. when I put straight skis on. In the spring I install brakes, bleed them with pressure bleeder from bottom-up with a clear hose screwed into where the fill plug goes, the hose goes into a can hung on the door sill. You want to have some good flow thru the lines to shove the air out. Once I get no air bubbles showing in the hose, I put the fill cap back on and pump brakes up and hold while setting parking brake. Then with the parking brake on I remove filler cap and top off until full, install filler cap, pump up brakes and continue process until I have the pedal I want without the brakes dragging to tight. (rock or roll wheel to check with parking brake off). If the brakes are to tight and drag to much -- just crack the bleeder screw with no peddle pressure on brakes and let a drop or two out at a time and recheck until happy. With the closed system and the small internal reservoir only a few drops can go from having ok brakes to not ok. Usually that will last all summer and have good pedal and brakes. But our temperatures only vary form 40F-90F degrees. Just in case in the bush I carrie a small oil squirt can with 5606 in it so I can add a few drops to the reservoir if needed.
 
Jimbo, where do I get a resevoir like that? Looks perfect for me expermental. Is the a 1/8 pipe thread coming out the side?
 
The container does have a pipe nipple coming out of the side at the bottom. It came with some used brake parts and has no numbers or other identification on it. Sorry I can't tell you where to get another one.
 
Could a resevoir be made for on top of each master with a shutoff because if it only takes a few drops they wouldnt have to be very big, one that screws into the fill plug. For the experimentals. For parts heres there website, www.northernpiper.com doug
 
Some things to check first ...brakes

Some things to check first

1. make sure the front brake pedals are not bent/twisted... the face of pedal where your foot pushes should be in line with the hole in arm at outer end... the pedal gets twisted, hench giving you less total travel and less master cyl deflection... this is VERY common on cubs....

2. with fluid out of brakes and pucks pushed all the way in, make sure caliper can move freely on pins, also that it is not held cockeyed by brake lines or such.....

3. as mentioned in another post above.. the brake lines if having been replaced by mostly hose, they can soak up a ton of your braking action.... if they Strech when you push... you can usually see this if it is bad enough...

mike
 
I have used north river boosters for a long time good product. This fall I removed a very old set of north river boosters, now have Steves boosters I love them. Steve and Brian stand behind the work they do and stand behind the products they make. The cub I am building now will also have a new set of Steves boosters when it flys.
 
for my exp. project i will machine the same resivour as the NR booster but move the fill hole back so the piston o-ring when in use will be past the fill hole to seal off pressure chamber from the fill chamber ,so you can run a small resivour on top of your booster. You just need to move the fill hole.. precisely so it will vent when brakes are not in use.
 
In place of the resevoir I installed a 3 inch nipple on top of both brake cylinders with a screw on cap. This makes for easy adding of fluid and gets all the bubbles out of the cylinder when you fly level.
 
When i fill my brakes i used the red 5606a hydraulic/brake fluid, then the other day i was looking in spruces catalog at brake fluids they have a #41 thats 5606g. Whats the difference? doug
 
Hello! i have original scott brakes on mi pa18A, wonder if there is a good alternative to go with north river brake boosters? i read that there is sometimes problem with the Temp variation and getting the brake to lock position? there is the cheaper alternative, the other option is to go with steves brakes wich are vented but cost the double.. Any one tried to make a plug in reservoir on the fill plug of scott brakes??
 
Hello! i have original scott brakes on mi pa18A, wonder if there is a good alternative to go with north river brake boosters? i read that there is sometimes problem with the Temp variation and getting the brake to lock position? there is the cheaper alternative, the other option is to go with steves brakes wich are vented but cost the double.. Any one tried to make a plug in reservoir on the fill plug of scott brakes??
See post #3 here: https://www.supercub.org/forum/threads/alaska-gear-company-brake-master-cylinders.63405/#post-864171
 
I have had North River for years and they work well if properly filled & bled. I put a bungee on the brake pedal to keep it fully retracted and fill them to overflow from the plug on the bottom of the caliper. However, I always check that I have a little “rattle” in my calipers on a preflight to make sure they are not overfilled. If not, likely that after some taxi time, they will heat up and the brake will lock up. A quick opening of the bleed plug on the caliper will correct it without pulling air into the system.
I’m sure the Steve’s or new AK Gear Co. units would solve this problem, but not annoying enough for me to pony up the $ yet.
Mikey
 
Hello! i have original scott brakes on mi pa18A, wonder if there is a good alternative to go with north river brake boosters? i read that there is sometimes problem with the Temp variation and getting the brake to lock position? there is the cheaper alternative, the other option is to go with steves brakes wich are vented but cost the double.. Any one tried to make a plug in reservoir on the fill plug of scott brakes??
Notice to everyone the plane/pilot is in South America! The logistics involved in this answer is a huge issue. I may have found some white and red whine tonight so I will reply latter but the first questions I would ask is the the plane kept in a cool hanger and what is the shortest runway you visit.
DENNY
 
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Steve's boosters married to grove double pucks on my J3 with 29"s. They're so easy to modulate I can taxi all the way to parking with the tail up (not that I recommend it but sometimes it gets muddy in the UK!)
 
Denny i am in south america, Argentina, normally we have quite a lot of thermal amplitude in winter and spring time. Steves brakes conversion look the way to go, not to expensive as changing everything to dakota cub system..
I was thinking.. if you bleed the pressure out on the a very hot day and close the system, let assume it does not leak any pressure out.. it should stay with a lower pressure on cold days and should not lock up on a hot day?
 
A reservoir system cures all that. I believe Steves, Dakota Cub, and Grove are the options.

My personal preference is Grove 95-1/2, since it is complete. I have found that, for J3 use, I need a very slight pedal extension - I use aluminum blocks and 8-32 socket head screws. Almost essential is a bleeder valve at the high point of the master cylinder - in my case the front, where the hose connects. I would not operate without these - and I hold a field approval - for the masters, not the bleeder screws.

The closed system needs some slack for temperature changes. One of my buddies has a seaplane, and the brakes get really hot - like Argentina in the summer hot - and we always need to let a few drops out after brake servicing. Adjust for maybe an inch of pedal travel on a warm day?
 
A reservoir system cures all that. I believe Steves, Dakota Cub, and Grove are the options.

My personal preference is Grove 95-1/2, since it is complete. I have found that, for J3 use, I need a very slight pedal extension - I use aluminum blocks and 8-32 socket head screws. Almost essential is a bleeder valve at the high point of the master cylinder - in my case the front, where the hose connects. I would not operate without these - and I hold a field approval - for the masters, not the bleeder screws.

The closed system needs some slack for temperature changes. One of my buddies has a seaplane, and the brakes get really hot - like Argentina in the summer hot - and we always need to let a few drops out after brake servicing. Adjust for maybe an inch of pedal travel on a warm day?
Bob,
Do you have a photo of that bleeder valve at the high point that you can post?
 
I had the misfortune to give instruction in a Cub with North River boosters. Plane had been converted to wheels from floats, mechanics serviced brakes, all done inside heated hangar....60 degrees plus. Owner taxiied to parking, commented on brakes to mechanics. They topped them off.
Next morning....at -20 F, we went flying. First landing was fine, pilot did a great job. Second was as well. I noted on that takeoff that the left tire stopped spinning right away.....grrrrr. Noted to the pilot there may be a swerve. Wasn't. Left tire was purely locked up. Round we went....no way to stop it.

In retrospect, that plane had a great heater, which blew right on the left brake booster......and the heat was full on.

I got a 709 ride out of that deal......

I will never fly a Cub with North River Boosters again, thank you. They can work fine, but in just the wrong circumstances.......

I put Steve's on my Cub, and they were pure D perfect!

MTV
 
Nhayes You are correct. I run a scat hose heater between my masters and have never had a problem with the brakes locking up. That hose is at 200 + degrees. Unlike MTV situation however I am in a heated hanger when working on working on my cub for one reason or another and pay attention to my master cylinders with temp changes in mind. I always carry a tool bag and can bleed quickly if brakes seem tight. If you are more of a once a year guy then Steves should work fine. replacing the bolts holding the front part with allen head bolts makes things a lot easier.
DENNY
 
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