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auto fuel with alcohol

supercubdriver

Registered User
Good afternoon

How much alcohol can be in the auto gas before it would cause a problem. Currently mixing about 50-50 aviation 100LL and auto fuel 87 octane without any alcohol. Noticed gas station is starting to sell gas mixed with 10% alcohol. This is in Oregon.

John
 
You should check with your STC holder, either Peterson out of Minden, NE, or EAA, out of WI. I think there are some very specific restrictions and a test to perform. My failing memory, NO gasohol is permitted under either STC.

I haven't run MoGas since the new jugs were installed, even whilst visiting Mr. Peterson's home base,m where all the tests were run. When running 100 "LL", TCP is a good idea on low compression engines, in my opinion, to minimise lead fouling, not only on sparkingplugs, but on exhuast valves/seats. It's now available again, recently got a new gallon can. Local engine overhaulers advise against TCP for many (~50?) hours after MOH, so the lead in 100LL can help lubricate valve stems etc.

ANY alcohol may degrade old fuel system hoses, etc, and my Insurance Underwriter has a disclaimer in the Declarations on this.

What do you do if you need/want to run Heet, suspecting some moisture or potential ice? Anybody still using IsoHeet one in a while?

Around here, there are some agricultural fuel suppliers that can sometimes supply non-alky fuel, but it should still be tested.

Just my uninformed opinion.

Thanks. Cubscout
 
Why don't you put some seals,hose, and 5052 aluminum in some of your 10% ethanol fuel and see what happens? I put a rubber gascolator seal and 5052 in some 85% ethanol,15% unleaded gasoline last August and still can't see any change. Ethanol plants here in the midwest add anti-oxidants to the fuel to stop corrosion in storage tanks and further down the line. If your fuel is methanol alcohol then that's a different story.
Marty
 
Wow. I thought ethanol was beer and wine (grain alochol) and methanol was wood alcohol (turns ya blind if you drink it). You mean their wastin' perfectly good Spirits by mixin' it with motor fuel just so they can make more MONEY? Sombody oughta complain about that. :crazyeyes:

now, smarten me up here somebody...isn't Prist (and other "good fuel ice inhibitors" based on isopropyl (aka "wood", aka "methyl") alcohol? AKA "methanol"? The stuff that eats rubber used for "aromatic fuel" seals and gaskets is ethyl alcohol (aka "ethanol", and when mixed in Yuppie fuel is called "gasohol") and is "allegedly" gotten mostly from distilled corn mash? Aren't the "Cheapo" aftermarket car store antifreezes just a swig of ethanol, and that is why you never were supposed to use it in an aircraft engine since back when Moses got Pilot's License Number TWO signed off? (look. I don't recommend ANYBODY drink NUTHIN that don't say Lager, Bock or *pick your Major Brandname here* on the label) And am I gettin so old to have forgotten that what you USED to buy at the pump was called "Ethyl"? I think I've gotten lost here...

Marty; 85% ethanol/15% unleaded??? Is that backwards, or do you burn that in a Clarke or a Towmotor or something? Or an old MG? If you're runnuing it in the MG, try 90% ethanol and 10% NitroMethane. Hold on to your hat! Doesn't a 10% ethanol mix run about as hot as a RiceRocket Motor can stand, and they were melting down the pistons at around 15%?
 
Hi Wingie. E-85 is what it's called at the pump---85% ethanol/15% unleaded. I have a Ford Taurus that can use the stuff if I can find a pump. There are getting to be more stations around the country that sell it as most new Suburbans and Chrysler minivans plus many more models can use it( all it takes is a little computer programing and the Taurus has a sensor in the gas line that works on dielectric constant telling the computer how much gasoline is in the blend. 100% gas works fine too. The oil stays cleaner with more ethanol in the blend. I think all new vehicles should be flexible fuel as it doesn't cost very much when going down the assembly line. Would like to try some Aviation Grade E-85 in one of Lycon's hotrod engines.
Marty
 
The Alaska folks should jump in here. I thought everyone waited and checked with the fuel distributors prior to ever buying autogas in the spring to ensure they didn't get alcohol blended fuel in their cubs.... I only used 100LL until 'good' fuel was available.
 
sharp said:
The Alaska folks should jump in here. I thought everyone waited and checked with the fuel distributors prior to ever buying autogas in the spring to ensure they didn't get alcohol blended fuel in their cubs.... I only used 100LL until 'good' fuel was available.

We Alaskans still have pretty easy access to pure gasoline, even in the winter. It just isn't at the corner gas station.

SB
 
Cubscout,

Isopropyl, marketed as Iso Heet, in a red can, is Iso Propyl alcohol, NOT methyl alcohol. Iso Propyl is specifically approved for use in Lycoming engines, at a maximum ratio of 1 % by volume, as an anti icing additive. Prist is a different product, not alcohol at all, as I understand it, but a different sort of anti-icing product.

Don't mix apples and oranges, folks, there are several different kinds of alcohol, some of which make pretty good fuels, and don't deteriorate fuel components, and some that soften rubber overnight.

If you'll read the owners' manual of your fuel injected car, most of them say to use Iso Propyl for anti icing fluid in your gas, NOT Methyl alcohol (Heet in the yellow can). That is true of my Chevy pickup truck, any way.

The test is specified by both of the STC providers for auto fuel use in aircraft. Like a lot of other things, if you do not adhere to their testing requirements for every batch of fuel you use, you are not in compliance with the STC provisions, and in fact, you may damage your engine or fuel system parts.

There is so much BS around about using auto fuel that its amazing. Get a copy of EAA or Peterson's auto fuel STC and READ the dang thing, folks. They are both very specific, and pretty stringent about what you put in your tanks.

If you do something else, it is at your peril. It may work, or your fuel hoses may melt.

Several years ago, I was running auto fuel in a Cub, and started checking into fuel quality. Most of the auto fuel in Alaska at that time did NOT comply with the provisions of either STC, near as I could tell, and seems like every batch of fuel was somewhat different, up here.

I'm not agin running auto fuel, but you really should educate yourself prior to doing so, and the best way to do that is to read the STC's.

Otherwise, you could be practicing the worst kind of false economy.

MTV
 
As usual, well said Mike:

That's about what I'd of said if I hadn't breathed too much Gasohol.....

In my spare time, will try to Scout out Mogas offered by the Avgas purveyours in my area. Report back if anythint interesting.

Thanks. Cubscout.
 
I just dug out this Special Airworthiness Information Bullletin I received in March of 2003: Cessna 180 taxiing for takeoff after o-rings were replaced in fuel selector had the engine quit and unable to restart. Upon inspection found o-rings manufactured by Valtec(Parker) swollen too twice original size thus completely blocking fuel flow. Fuel was 100 LL Avgas.
Marty
 
I think you're right Steve and everyone else that wants to run a high compression engine when lead is gone.
Marty
 
Alcohols...

Guys,
There are hundreds of types of alcohols. Isopropyl is not methyl. Both are different as day and night. Methyl alcohol is very corrosive, where Ethanol is not nearly so. However, ethanol is a very aggressive solvent, and damages the older seals and gaskets. Dang if you do, and dang if you don't.
I don't.

Mike
 
Yes, various universities have done a lot of research, and the bottom line is that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than what it contains. Some key points about this from the landmark study by Cornell University's David Pimentel (http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug01/corn-basedethanol.hrs.html):

----------------------------------
o An acre of U.S. corn yields about 7,110 pounds of corn for processing into 328 gallons of ethanol. But planting, growing and harvesting that much corn requires about 140 gallons of fossil fuels and costs $347 per acre, according to Pimentel's analysis. Thus, even before corn is converted to ethanol, the feedstock costs $1.05 per gallon of ethanol.

o The energy economics get worse at the processing plants, where the grain is crushed and fermented. As many as three distillation steps are needed to separate the 8 percent ethanol from the 92 percent water. Additional treatment and energy are required to produce the 99.8 percent pure ethanol for mixing with gasoline. o Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTU. "Put another way," Pimentel says, "about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTU."

o Ethanol from corn costs about $1.74 per gallon to produce, compared with about 95 cents to produce a gallon of gasoline. "That helps explain why fossil fuels -- not ethanol -- are used to produce ethanol," Pimentel says. "The growers and processors can't afford to burn ethanol to make ethanol. U.S. drivers couldn't afford it, either, if it weren't for government subsidies to artificially lower the price."

o If all the automobiles in the United States were fueled with 100 percent ethanol, a total of about 97 percent of U.S. land area would be needed to grow the corn feedstock. Corn would cover nearly the total land area of the United States.
----------------------------------

If ethanol was the solution then it would have favorable economics from the get-go, and not need any government subsidies. Farmers and refiners would use it in the production process. The fact that they don't is telling and hypocritical.
 
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o An acre of U.S. corn yields about 7,110 pounds of corn for processing into 328 gallons of ethanol. But planting, growing and harvesting that much corn requires about 140 gallons of fossil fuels and costs $347 per acre, according to Pimentel's analysis. Thus, even before corn is converted to ethanol, the feedstock costs $1.05 per gallon of ethanol.


140 gallons of Fuel per acre to grow corn?????? Thats 22400 gallon of fuel per quarter. That must include all of the AV gas burnt flying around checking the corn also.
 
Here in the midwest they glare and spit at ya if you berate or question ethanol production but it's still politics........MN actually requires all gasoline sold in their state to contain ethanol.....the taxpayers lose and the plant owners take our money all in the name of helping agriculture.

ps. Ooops, sorry sj.....maybe should be in R&R?
 
Something is goofy with those numbers. :o Just did a little calculation and I don't think I used that much total fuel per acre in 15 years to grow corn. But then what do farmers know, specially ones that fly SuperCubs?
 
It baffles me how Pimentel keeps his job---must be something about tenure. Anyway, I'd like to add some info that I do know for sure: for my part of the equation which is from the bag of seed to the ethanol plant it takes 10 gals of propane to dry the grain on average and about 3 and 1/2 gallon of diesel fuel per acre. I've been averaging 155 bu/ac(8680lbs.) so that produces 403 gal. of ethanol and 2635lbs. of dried distillers grain(excellent livestock and possibly human feed) that Pimentel hauls to the landfill. Now it gets even better---there is a new plant being constructed in central Iowa that will use coal from Wyoming that has a delivered price of $1.75 /million btu's. A gallon of ethanol will be produced using 37,000 btu's. Try running coal through your 180 HP Lycoming or natural gas for that matter. Now, I'm not sure how much fuel the ship that brings my nitrogen fertilizer from the Soviet Union uses but probably not much different than the tanker hauling crude from the Middle East. Oh, my tractor is 29 yrs. old so not using much energy to melt it down to make a new one.
Marty
 
fuel required to grow corn

Not to debate the economics of ethanol (grain alcohol) production...but just wanted to add my numbers to the mix of how many gallons of fuel it takes to produce an acre of corn.
It takes me roughly 7 gallons of diesel to till, plant, weed, harvest, and haul an acre of corn to the local elevator.
That is just what the physical/cultural operations of corn production are on my farm...many farms may be even more efficient.
That does not include how many gallons of petroleum (mostly natural gas) that it took to make the fertilizer that was necessary to maintain top yields.
Some farmers utilize more animal wastes, and include alfalfa/legume crop rotations to augment commercial fertilizer needs...and grow similar yields per acre.
Randy
 
180Marty said:
It baffles me how Pimentel keeps his job---must be something about tenure.

Marty, as you probably know the Pimental / Cornell study is the most widely cited one right now. The ethanol lobby has spent a considerable amount of resources trying to discredit it.

However, the last statement in my post was that the ethanol industry itself does not use ethanol. Even if Pimental's numbers are way off, it is self-evident by the fact that you guys use the fuels (fossil fuels) that you want to make everyone else stop using, so they will have to use ethanol instead. The bottom line is that fossil fuels are much more economically cost-effective and efficient than ethanol. If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't need taxpayer subsidies and mandatory ethanol usage laws (both things that prop up ethanol at the point of a gun, not by consumer / market choice). And Exxon would be investing heavily in Iowa!

Oh, and even though you can't burn coal in your airplane, you can still burn gas which is probably even more economical.
 
Good afternoon:

Thanks for the replies. It appears you need to find out what kind of alcohol is being used. The ill affects would be possible damage to hoses/o-rings/fuel lines/etc.

Thanks

John
 
Christina, I don't have much clout when it comes to the operation of the ethanol plant. I am burning corn to heat my house and have suggested we do the same at the plant. Corn has about 500,000 btu's /bushel and worth about $1.70 at this time so considerably less expensive than natural gas. The other thing I"ve suggested is plasma gasification of solid municipal waste that some city would pay us to take and rail it out here. One other plus of burning corn would be the big grain companies wouldn't have to worry about exporting any.
Marty
 
Hi there, Just went to the annual meeting of the ethanol plant I'm a small part of. In January it took a smidge less than 24,200 BTU's and .54 kw to produce a gallon of ethanol. It should get even better when the regenerative thermal oxidizer(RTO) and another centrifuge come online. Thought I'd throw that info out to all those people that believe David Pimentel at Cornell Univ.
Marty
 
Marty, is that just the ethanol plant part, or is that the entire production process (i.e. growing & harvesting the crops, getting them to the plant, etc)? BTW, does the plant itself run on ethanol? If not, why not?
 
Hi Marty, isn't there another cost measure that the 'experts' don't mention, namely that the leftover mash can be marketed as high protein hog feed, or something like that? I recall reading that, somewhere.....
 
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