Arkanstol Crashes

[Eddie Foy]

Looks like they had to make some changes. Too many incidents.
https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/ne...ol-practice-pilot-airlifted-to-trauma-center/

 

[aktango58]

That rag isn't even fit to line my cat litter box.

The lack of ethics and respect that magazine shows is so beneath what aviation people should be, it should not even be discussed among aviators.

I have read more than one 'report' they have done that reads just like the National Inquirer- innuendo and supposition. They don't care about facts, or truth- just a media rag playing on emotion and speculation.

As far as the event mentioned, unbelievable how fly-ins have gone from fun times with like minded people gathering, to high school drama queens crying because they can not have it all their way all the time.

Better when a bunch of no-bodies got together and razzed each other as they took their everyday plane and gave it a shot. Now everyone wants to be famous, and have turned a cool activity into nothing more than a swinging d##k contest.


If I have offended the sensibilities of this site, please delete my post Steves

 

[Utah-Jay]

 

[SteveE]

Tangle, I hear you’d lose that swinging d##k contest.


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[aktango58]

Tangle, I hear you’d lose that swinging d##k contest.


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Hey uncle, Have not heard from you in a coona&& age, how you doing??

I know for sure you can land much shorter than I, Kirby posted a video of you stopping in nothing, and just hovering up and going again... so yup, I would be the loser!!

How is life?

 

[sj]

George, I didn't know that you had a cat...

They have made the local media quite a bit this year as well. I hope the eventfulness of the event is over for this year!

sj

 

[aktango58]

George, I didn't know that you had a cat...

They have made the local media quite a bit this year as well. I hope the eventfulness of the event is over for this year!

sj

I have Kat, which is a Novia Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever... Lyn has two cats.

If you would bring your beautiful bride to visit and photograph Bald Eagles, (and not us that are losing hair), you could meet the cats and Kat!

May the event be a positive for aviation, and may people be safe.

Best of luck for all you guys flying this weekend.

 

[Steve Pierce]

From someone that was there it sounds like the Highlander pilot is going to loose his foot. That turn deserves some respect as does landing short and having to get v=back out over power lines and trees. Lots of different factors at play for sure.

 

[jrussl]

Also spoke to someone at the event. They indicated that the course was modified to eliminate the turn that was causing many of the crashes. I’m glad they made the change.


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[Eddie Foy]

I was a volunteer at last year’s event. I sat at the top of Grit and watched that wifferdill turn many times. I saw a lot of hanging it out and overshot finals. I also saw one crash in that turn. One guy would have run thru our area if he had not intentionally groundlooped it. I was signed up to compete but it is not a 180 course with that turn. Could I have done it? Probably but I would not have enjoyed it. I opted out. Risk versus reward.

 

[12Geezer2]

This sure reminds me of my dear old instructors words---" REMEMBER---There are some things you just don't have to do." Kinda like my first trip to Johnson Crick. Went with several folks to (mile High) one fine morning and opted to just watch from high above. Was thinking ---1000 miles from home---reasonable sure it would be o.k.---BUT---what IF ??? ---fly safe you'all----geezer Dan

 

[Cub Builder]

FWIW, I think these events are great fun for spectators and competition alike, but the safety aspect will play a role. Personally, I'm not a big fan of watching planes doing hard maneuvers close to the ground. I lost too many friends that were airshow pilots that were good at Aerobatics, but ultimately lost when they made contact with the ground. Low level aerobatics are for the ghouls that want to see wrecks and something I can't enjoy anymore. If the accident rates at these events get too high and pilots are getting maimed or killed, the promoters won't be able to insure the event.

This kind of event tends to police itself. Pilot gets injured or killed. Pilot or family sue the promoter/facility to pay the medical bills or support the family. Insurance pays off the lawsuit or promoter goes broke defending himself. Promoter/facility can't get insurance anymore or it is prohibitively expensive. They will have to work at making it safer, or eventually won't be able to host such competitions. And the insurance companies won't cover any similar events or will have limits on what the events can be. Chances are that few of the competitors carry hull insurance, so aircraft insurance rates aren't likely to be impacted. But event insurance will kill the events if the high accident continues.

-Cub Builder

 

[mvivion]

That brings up a question I have: What do insurance companies look at when setting rates for different types of aircraft? Do they only look at claims, or do they look at accident statistics, and base their rates for a particular make/model on the accident statistics for that make/model or similar?

It seems to me that they would look at ALL accidents of a particular type when insuring an airplane of that type, but does anyone have actual factual information on this?

MTV

 

[Narwhal]

That brings up a question I have: What do insurance companies look at when setting rates for different types of aircraft? Do they only look at claims, or do they look at accident statistics, and base their rates for a particular make/model on the accident statistics for that make/model or similar?

It seems to me that they would look at ALL accidents of a particular type when insuring an airplane of that type, but does anyone have actual factual information on this?

MTV

Both. They look at individual claims, not just accident rates including the configuration you fly it in (skis, floats etc). Except it's not the insurance companies themselves, it seems that it's the underwriters, of which there are only about a dozen nationwide for aviation insurance policies according to a recent seminar I went to. It's an important distinction in places Alaska where many things that would qualify as accidents go unreported in the NTSB database but end up on an insurance adjuster's desk. The exact formula seems to be a closely guarded secret sauce though, no one wants to divulge exactly how the premiums are calculated. I don't know if the info could result in age discrimination lawsuits or something, but it's definitely not something they want to share with the general public.

 

[mvivion]

Both. They look at individual claims, not just accident rates including the configuration you fly it in (skis, floats etc). Except it's not the insurance companies themselves, it seems that it's the underwriters, of which there are only about a dozen nationwide for aviation insurance policies according to a recent seminar I went to. It's an important distinction in places Alaska where many things that would qualify as accidents go unreported in the NTSB database but end up on an insurance adjuster's desk. The exact formula seems to be a closely guarded secret sauce though, no one wants to divulge exactly how the premiums are calculated. I don't know if the info could result in age discrimination lawsuits or something, but it's definitely not something they want to share with the general public.

My point is, I’ve now read on various forums since this accident that “Since most insurance policies specifically exclude claims from this type of “competition”, therefore any accidents which occur at these “competitions” won’t have any effect on others’ insurance rates.

I don’t know whether that’s true, but I seriously doubt insurance companies are going to parse out these rather rare incidents when developing accident rates for a make/model/type.

MTV

 

[Narwhal]

My point is, I’ve now read on various forums since this accident that “Since most insurance policies specifically exclude claims from this type of “competition”, therefore any accidents which occur at these “competitions” won’t have any effect on others’ insurance rates.

I don’t know whether that’s true, but I seriously doubt insurance companies are going to parse out these rather rare incidents when developing accident rates for a make/model/type.

MTV

I don't know if any of the insurers would divulge whether or not they take accidents that didn't result in valid claim and/or payout into account when determining premiums. At the BWI seminar I attended they sure didn't want to or just weren't able to tell anyone the answer to questions like that. The only thing I really learned is that 50 hours in type seems to be required for a new policy insuring a tailwheel airplane going forward. It's an interesting point though!

 

[aktango58]

Bottom line, it is bad for us GA guys.

Accidents and injuries make people fear flying, and insurance companies that insure these events may be the very ones insuring the aircraft- or a partner.

Reno survived the P-51 going through the stands... lets hope us off airport guys survive the yahoos competing

 

[Steve Pierce]

Out of all the competitions over the years how many accidents have there been? I know of a few nose overs. I know of more from practicing.

 

[mvivion]

Out of curiosity, I just read my policy, and there is no exclusion for competitions, fly ins, STOL events, etc.

MTV

 

[KevinJ]

This is the residence of the people throwing the biggest fit with Byrds. Every time there’s an accident they call the local news station. It’s been an ongoing deal for many years I’m told. Apparently they are difficult to reason with. Surprising…..

 

[RVBottomly]

Out of curiosity, I just read my policy, and there is no exclusion for competitions, fly ins, STOL events, etc.

MTV

I just looked mine up, Avemco policy. One exclusion stood out:

"f. closed course racing, or practicing or qualifying for a race;"

No definition of "race," but I bet they think this event is a race.

 

[AkPA/18]

From someone that was there it sounds like the Highlander pilot is going to loose his foot. That turn deserves some respect as does landing short and having to get v=back out over power lines and trees. Lots of different factors at play for sure.

Prayers for the Highlander pilot. Out having a good day with his buddies and runs into a life changing event. Just a sad sad deal.

 

[Steve Pierce]

My opinion, to many uninformed (ignorant) people posting opinions about this event on social media. I flew the event last year. It does demand respect but it was also loads of fun. There were 3 accidents this year, one flipped over. The pilot told me he wasn't on his game, had a tailwind and forced it on. Stuff happens. The 220 degree turn between Grit and Traveler is where the Scout last year and the Kitfox and the Highlander went in this year. It demands respect. Not hard to widen your turn and use altitude and then slip it down onto the strip. So much misinformation via social media this past week. Made me sick to my stomach reading comments from fellow aviators. I just love it when others tell me I can't do something to save me from myself. Maybe it isn't ready for prime time. Maybe just a select few and not an advertised event. I don't know the answer but I am thoroughly disappointed in lots of my fellow aviators over this event on several different issues that I will not discuss here. It is a shame because I had a blast last year.

 

[sj]

"I just love it when others tell me I can't do something to save me from myself." I laughed out loud when I read this part. If ANYONE needs saving from themselves... :lol:

sj

 

[mvivion]

I just looked mine up, Avemco policy. One exclusion stood out:

"f. closed course racing, or practicing or qualifying for a race;"

No definition of "race," but I bet they think this event is a race.

Mines AVEMCO as well. No such mention. I guess they figure I’m too far gone to be racing…..or I have the slowest plane…

MTV

 

[Steve Pierce]

"I just love it when others tell me I can't do something to save me from myself." I laughed out loud when I read this part. If ANYONE needs saving from themselves... :lol:

sj

Well, there is that but you have to admit the time between incidence and the seriousness is fewer and further between. 8)

 

[RVBottomly]

Mines AVEMCO as well. No such mention. I guess they figure I’m too far gone to be racing…..or I have the slowest plane…

MTV

Right. Mine is almost but not quite as fast as a stock Taylorcraft.

As for the pilot, he updated his condition on social media. Says prognosis is good, he'll require a lot of surgery, but expects to fly again.

 

[mvivion]

Well, there is that but you have to admit the time between incidence and the seriousness is fewer and further between. 8)

That's what we call "Growth"....and that's a good thing.

MTV

 

[courierguy]

It's supposed to be challenging, don't enter if you can't fly it without crashing. Or, tame it down so it's not challenging? Maybe a speed limit at Reno is next

 

[Mauleguy]

It's all fun until someone blows a finger off or gets an eye poked out as I have heard growing up. Sometimes we need saving from ourselves when were to stupid to know what can kill us.
Many people enter these events with not enough time to know the seriousness of it. I saw video last year I think of the young gal competing against Steve Henry and I thought to myself her parents are nuts for letting her do it... trying to shave seconds off low altitude turns is a recipe for disaster. She was low time pilot and that combined with the frontal lobe not being fully formed was a danger to herself and the people on the ground. Maybe she has a natural ability but she is also to new at it to really know. Once a person has a chance to see what an airplane looks like totally F-uped with a guy that is barely alive in it then maybe they have respect.