Aqua 1500 straight floats

[BC12D-4-85]

Adding a second "angle" to the Aquas halfway between the existing one and the float keel might help. Note in Post #30 how PK floats does that, but they use a different shaped booster. It can be shorter than the other one because as the float speeds up only that portion of the bottom contact's the water. There's a variety of booster shapes and numbers but the principle is the same...help the float get airborne sooner.

Here's an older book on water flying that offers some info: https://www.amazon.com/Water-Flying-Everything-Should-Seaplanes/dp/0025671308 There's others.

Gary

 

[TurboBeaver]

Gary
Had a friend years ago that had a very beat up set of 2000's (they had hit everything including the daily double! The boosters; were worn right thru, in middle( high spot) showing about 3/8" gap the whole length of the booster. He complained, they didn't perform "good as they used to" He decided to take piece of tin roofing; (electrolysis being least of his worry's) And bent it over a board, to fit a V over the worn booster, I believe he used MarineTex, to bond it onto the existing booster. He swore they then worked good as new; after his " bush mod".....Up

 

[BC12D-4-85]

Pete Skywagon8a and others here have a better background than I on float bottom evolution. I'd like to hear about more about that subject it there's time and interest. Might take another thread.

Gary

 

[skywagon8a]

Start the thread Gary. That topic would cover all floats and hulls not just Aqua 1500s.

 

[Cubus Maximus]

 

[algonquin]

WWHUNTER, have you found any paperwork for the Aqua1500’s on the Champ?

 

[WWhunter]

WWHUNTER, have you found any paperwork for the Aqua1500’s on the Champ?

No sir, I have not. I'm thinking my friend may have given up. He wasn't said so specifically but it seems the 'wind has gone out of his sails'. Last I spoke to him he seemed to have lost interest in trying to get them approved.

 

[skywagon8a]

It always seems so easy to just slap something on your airplane and go. That is until you learn about Mr. FAA. That's why the EAB route is so popular.

 

[BC12D-4-85]

Another concern might be the typical need for auxiliary stabilizing fin or fins on the tail of the Champ. They have a short fuselage and early models had a smaller vertical stabilizer and rudder. As they evolved with larger engines that vertical component was also enlarged and a forward fairing area added. Getting those floats approved might involve a similar alteration.

Gary

 

[TurboBeaver]

Gary here was my old 7GC on 1800's that had to have two top fins only , I think a few years later when the GCB, and GCBC came out they required 4 both top and bottom of horz stab required. If you don't remove them for ski flying those fins certainly restrict how much you can slip the Champ......

 

[BC12D-4-85]

Maybe someone will comment on what performance tests or needs makes those aux fins necessary? Like float stall speed stamped on the data plates I never really understood why? I have guessed it was lack of longitudinal stability but never really knew. I did fly my 7GCBC on 2000's without them once and didn't find it a greater challenge.

Gary

 

[john schwamm]

I am looking for the ventral fin for a Cessna 175/172 if anyone has one. Required for Baumann 2550 amphibs.
Thanks,
John
jschwamm@cox.net 480.766.9990

 

[skywagon8a]

View attachment 62662Gary here was my old 7GC on 1800's that had to have two top fins only , I think a few years later when the GCB, and GCBC came out they required 4 both top and bottom of horz stab required. If you don't remove them for ski flying those fins certainly restrict how much you can slip the Champ......

The 7AC Champs with the small fin required four stab fins. The 7GCBC and 7GCBC with the bigger 2000s and large dorsal required four fins.

Maybe someone will comment on what performance tests or needs makes those aux fins necessary? Like float stall speed stamped on the data plates I never really understood why? I have guessed it was lack of longitudinal stability but never really knew. I did fly my 7GCBC on 2000's without them once and didn't find it a greater challenge.Gary

Trim in a power idle glide to 1.2 Vs. Hold stick stable. Displace nose with rudder greater than 10 degrees, release rudder. Nose must return to within 10 degrees of original heading after passing through the original heading not more than once. You'll know right away if it needs fins. If it need fins, it likely will just skid sideways with no attempt to return. If it marginally needs extra tail, you may think it is ok except that in mild turbulence and even smooth air you will be working the controls all the time. The fatigue factor is high. That's why my Cub has the big ventral fin. Sooo much nicer.

My 7GCB on 2000s would skid sideways and stay there without the fins.

Float stall speed on the data plates was likely because of some event during FAA flight test. Stamping the number on the plate made the FAA test people happy, so it was done.

 

[BC12D-4-85]

^^^^ Ok now I got it. My PA-12-180 with no ventral or whatever fin on 2000's had springs from the air rudder to the aft lift handles. It apparently kept the rudder from moving easily (?). But that plane would point its nose when and where it wanted and that took constant foots to rudder movement to maintain coordinated flight. I guess that's the pilot's job but it gets tiring.

Float stall speed...does that mean they stall at that speed, or the plane attached to them? I still am confused as to why it's even noted.

Gary

 

[skywagon8a]

^^^^ Ok now I got it. My PA-12-180 with no ventral or whatever fin on 2000's had springs from the air rudder to the aft lift handles. It apparently kept the rudder from moving easily (?). But that plane would point its nose when and where it wanted and that took constant foots to rudder movement to maintain coordinated flight. I guess that's the pilot's job but it gets tiring.

Float stall speed...does that mean they stall at that speed, or the plane attached to them? I still am confused as to why it's even noted.

Gary

According to the PA-12's TC, the ventral fin is required when on floats. That is for directional stability purposes. Those springs you had were something someone did so he could leave the fin off. Either because it was lost, or he got tired of whacking docks with it. The spring method does nothing for the directional stability, it only serves as a method of BSing the FAA into passing the test. Wip did this on their Cub floats with stops on the water rudders. Yuk!

The springs move the rudder from the displaced position to neutral. In the test I described above, the rudder was displaced and the feet were lifted off the pedals allowing the rudder to move on it's own. Friction usually keeps the rudder from moving much. Remember, rudders don't usually have strong springs moving them. Additionally there is the water rudder steering cable friction. The original springs which Piper put on the front pedals are only to keep the pedals from flopping back when you take your feet off them.

I've seen data plates with the stall speed on them, but have never heard an explanation. When doing the Flight tests for approval with the FAA test pilots and engineers, stuff happens. In those cases often times in order to get the project completed with the certificate being issued, a quick fix which makes Mr. FAA happy is put in place. I'm speculating this is one of those fixes. You have no idea of the range of qualifications those FAA people possess. I could tell you stories.

 

[mvivion]

My old C 170 on PeeKay B 2300 floats was just as happy flying sideways as forward. Was actually a pretty good training attribute during float training…..especially airline pilots….. But, as Pete noted, tiresome. Turned out that a ventral fin was an “Option” on that installation, so I called Pee Kay and asked if they had a fin…..they did, so I bought it. It helped considerably.

I learned the certification procedure from JJ Frey, and there’s no way that plane could pass on those floats. I wondered how it got approved, till I saw the documentation, signed by Al Fleener. That answered my question…..Al had this notion that the person in the left seat should be doing some of that “Pilot stuff”.

Mystery solved.

MTV

 

[skywagon8a]

I wondered how it got approved, till I saw the documentation, signed by Al Fleener. That answered my question…..Al had this notion that the person in the left seat should be doing some of that “Pilot stuff”.

Mystery solved.

MTV

That's a name out of the past. Wasn't he one of the go to FSDO people for field approvals?

 

[BC12D-4-85]

https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/adn/name/alfred-fleener-obituary?id=17962526

He approved 8:50x6 tires on my first Taylorcraft. Nobody locally would - too tall with unknown consequences. I flew the plane to Anchorage at his request then had the tires mounted at Wilbur's Flying Service. Al walked in, said hello, took some measurements then stamped the Form 337. He suggested I adjust the air pressure if asked in Fairbanks about axle height upon returning. He was a great resource for General Aviation and his common sense expertise is missed.

Gary

 

[mvivion]

If it made sense, Al got it done. He was a good one.

MTV

 

[mam90]

He could also fly the heck out of our 310 which the FAA rented from us - with his left arm amputated at the elbow. He would trim it nose up, and then use what he had left of that arm to add or reduce forward pressure on the yoke. He was a gem for sure.

 

[TurboBeaver]

Al Fleener was the "Dean of FAA inspector's" he undoubtedly helped more folks get mods approved, than any other inspector,ever did. His common sense approach was exactly the opposite of how the FAA approaches things today......... AL always looked at it to try to find a way to help you if he could! A wonderful guy with a
positive attitude that helped hundreds of us. It's a shame we have lost that relationship with the powers to be, the aviation community lost a great friend in Al Fleener........

 

[mvivion]

Al Fleener was the "Dean of FAA inspector's" he undoubtedly help more folks get mods approved than any
Other inspector ever did. His common sense approach was exactly the opposite of how the FAA approaches things today......... AL always looked at it to try to find a way to help you if he could! A wonderful guy with a
positive attitude that helped hundreds of us. It's a shame we have lost that relationship with the powers to be, the aviation community lost a great friend in Al Fleener........

And, he was just an all around good guy and aviation junkie, to boot! He certainly left a mark on Alaska aviation.

MTV

 

[WaterPilot]

If you don’t want to purchase them, I will for my wag aero cub