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Aileron Options

LJackson

Registered User
Hi All-

I am building a plans-built experimental Cub with a C-85 Stroker. This is my first post here on SuperCub.org, though I have been reading the posts here for quite some time. I have been a regular participant on both J3-Cub.com and Yahoo/piper-cub-builders; and I see familiar names here from those other sites. I just uploaded some photos here of my project.

My plans-built fuselage and fuselage components are complete and am final assembling the fuselage for cover. I am currently assembling my wings. I fabricated new spruce spars and all new metal parts per original J3 Piper drawings. I am using Carlson ribs and assembling per original Piper J3 drawings.

Currently I am trying to decide how to approach the building of my ailerons. I have followed Bugs as he built his D&E ailerons, and aware that Marty57 successfully built his out of wood.

I like the simplicity of construction of the D&E ailerons, and the kit price is within the budget, though I am concerned about reports that the D&E components are heavy in weight. I am endeavoring to build this Cub to be as light as practical, as it will have a gross weight of 1320. A question I have is how much do the D&E ailerons weigh in comparison to stock Piper style ailerons?

I am also interested in wood ailerons; I am guessing they are light weight. I wonder how much work is involved in building them. I do want to move this portion of the project forward without reinventing anything, as I’ve been working on this project for a long time now and want to get it flying.

The only other aileron kit option I know of besides the D&E is the Wag-Aero Aileron Fabricated Parts Kit; however the Wag Kit is more than twice money of the D&E kit. I know of no one who has assembled ailerons from the Wag kit, so I don’t know how good their kit is.

I want the ailerons to count toward my 51% points, so utilizing existing used piper parts is not an option. Can anyone comment on any other aileron options I might consider?

LJackson
 
Take a look at this thread for some weights:
http://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?27341

I bet wood is lightest but D&E's are nice too. The heaviest part of D&E flap/aileron is the LE extrusion. The extrusions are beautiful but a tad heavy. You can drill lightening holes in the rear web. Or you can remove the majority of web leaving yourself 1/4" or so top/bottom so you have something to rivet the ribs to. Don't remove the web where control horn goes. You could probably punch some lightening holes in the ribs.

One benefit of heavier LE is provides sort of a free counter balance? Not sure if much gained or not. Doing it again I would lighten.
 
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I orderd my aileron LE from D&E i think but scratch built all the rest and used hinges from a pacer/tri-pacer but you could make those as well, remember when you build it to get a nice flat table, it's easy to rivet a bad warp in it if your not careful.
 
I'm moving along nicely on my wood ailerons and should have the first one done in a few weeks (I hope). The wood will likely be lighter and I will weigh them when I get it finished. It is pretty easy to build from wood and I do have drawings if you decide to go that rout. Cost? My cost will likely be about $100 for both but I had a lot of the materials left over after the wing build. I bet they could be built for $200-$300 total. I'll post weight and pictures soon when finished with them. Anybody have a stock metal aileron weight?
Marty57
 
Go wood!

My two penny's worth is:
1. Unless you pay attention to the ounces from the beginning to the end you won't end up with a light aeroplane.
2. I am of the opinion that wood ailerons are easier to build than aluminium.
3. Wood ailerons will match your wood wings.
4. Piper style aluminium ailerons are deceptively fiddly.
 
4. Piper style aluminium ailerons are deceptively fiddly.

I can agree with that. We have two really good pairs and two really bad pairs. I have not yet found out what makes good ones, and believe me I have tried - with jigs, re-riveting, trailing edge mods, trim tabs, etc.
 
That tab

gidday Bob,

Got mine flying OK now with the tab. Thanks for bringing it up originally.

Cheers,
Andrew.
 
I'm moving along nicely on my wood ailerons and should have the first one done in a few weeks (I hope). The wood will likely be lighter and I will weigh them when I get it finished. It is pretty easy to build from wood and I do have drawings if you decide to go that rout. Cost? My cost will likely be about $100 for both but I had a lot of the materials left over after the wing build. I bet they could be built for $200-$300 total. I'll post weight and pictures soon when finished with them. Anybody have a stock metal aileron weight?
Marty57
Hi there Marty,

How does one get access to the wood wing drawings ? :D

Thanks,
Jose
 
Hi Jose,
The wood wings that I am building are part of Wag Aero's 2+2 plans. I have done modifications to the drawings to incorporate flaps and to use a stock Piper wood wing tip bow. When I am all finished, I'll have drawings with all the mods that I have done. I am also making flaps and ailerons from wood and am in the middle of that process. I've got all the pictures on my web site listed below.
Marty57
 
Thanks All-

I appreciate all the response to my aileron questions.

Thanks Bugs for the info on D&E aileron weight. I’ll be getting a hold of a stock Piper aileron soon to compare. I’ll go to your web site and study the photos you have there and try to visualize the proposed lightening holes and attempt to analyze their affect on the finished structure.

The more I hear about the wood ailerons the more I am interested. I would like to study in any drawings that are now or will be available. I think wood ailerons may compliment nicely my lightweight wings which have spruce spars and aluminum Carlson ribs. Also I should note that I have incorporated stock Piper style wing tip bows.

I have been diligent during my build process not to let extra weight creep in, so I approach the D&E kit with caution. Ease of construction is important to me as well, so I’m even more interested in the wood option if their construction looks straightforward.

LJackson
 
I have seen the D&E aileron extrusion on Bugs site. It is beefy compared to the original Piper tin-foil arrangement. However with respect to lightening it up, if one approaches the lightening on the basis of "equivalent engineering" to the Piper aileron, I'd be hesitant about cutting lightening holes in the spar web because the Piper spar web does not have lightening holes. The leading edge on the Piper aileron is only .016"; the D&E clearly being overbuilt in this part of it. Why not consider cutting lightening holes along the bottom of the D? Once covered in fabric the aerodynamic effect will be nil.

An friend is building a Pitts and is using aluminium aileron kits from Raven aircraft. OK, he is not familiar with metalwork, but he says he has come close to throwing them on the floor and jumping upon them. He wishes he'd built wood!

Keep us posted on your decision.

Cheers, Andrew.
 
Building an aileron with wood is a pretty straight forward task. The aileron will look identical to it's metal twin. All hinges are exactly the same; trailing edge can be the same metal part as stock Piper or wood (my choice). Think of the aileron as a mini wood wing. The ribs are constructed exactly as any wood wing rib; some ply wood gussets, spruce cap strips, and a plywood nose block. These are glued onto a wood spar with identical spacing to the Piper aileron. False ribs (plywood nose pieces shape of letter "D" are glued between the ribs. Everything is glued up in a jig just like you would need for riveting. The leading edge is covered with a combination of 1/16" ply and spruce. Hinges are attached using AN3 bolts with plane nuts welded to a plate secured to the rear of the spar. My hinges will be removable from the finished aileron along with the aileron horn making for easier maintenance down the line. I'll post picture as I start to assemble the aileron over the next couple of weeks.
Marty57
 
I have seen the D&E aileron extrusion on Bugs site. It is beefy compared to the original Piper tin-foil arrangement. However with respect to lightening it up, if one approaches the lightening on the basis of "equivalent engineering" to the Piper aileron, I'd be hesitant about cutting lightening holes in the spar web because the Piper spar web does not have lightening holes. The leading edge on the Piper aileron is only .016"; the D&E clearly being overbuilt in this part of it. Why not consider cutting lightening holes along the bottom of the D? Once covered in fabric the aerodynamic effect will be nil...

D&E originally had the LE's without the rear web. You then riveted small squares where you would be attaching pivots. I think for cost/time savings they stopped removing the rear web. These extrusions are substantially stronger than the stock Piper, even without the rear web. They are completely rigid and about .062-.075 in thickness. I will measure some scrap I have tonight and post. You could drill holes on bottom bottom but if it were me I would remove some of the web. Here is a photo from Rick Davis' site:
FP11062006A0002O.jpg


Marty, you da' Man for wood! Keep up the great work!
 
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Aileron horn

Getting back to the D&E Aileron Kit; Does anyone know if the aileron horn is included in the D&E kit? I looked at the picture D&E provides of their Piper Style aileron kit, and did not see the horn.

LJackson
 
I glued up the first wood aileron tonight. After the jig was set up it only took me about an hour to set all the ribs in place and another hour to glue everything up. There are a lot of other parts to glue up but this went pretty fast. I posted pictures on my blog showing it step-by-step. It sure is nice to be making some progress rather quickly for a change.
Marty57
 
Getting back to the D&E Aileron Kit; Does anyone know if the aileron horn is included in the D&E kit? I looked at the picture D&E provides of their Piper Style aileron kit, and did not see the horn.

LJackson

On the D&E flaps/aileron, you have to decide if you are doing a stock or D&E. If stock, then the control horn is applicable and you would normally use Piper style hinges and hangers to complement this. If you go with D&E style, then they use different hinges and pivots. Piper style hinges are mounted on the front of the spar web. D&E are mounted on back. They use push fittings on the top of LE's to actuate the surfaces instead of control horns.

For my project, I elected to do Piper style so I ordered my parts this way from D&E. The one exception is my flap which has the D&E push fitting instead of control horn on hinge.

There are a lot of ways to skin the cat and with experimental you can be as creative as you want. I will say that I wish I would have stayed with the D&E style hangers an hinges. They are lighter, easier to install, you don't have to notch your LE's.

D&E should be able to supply the choices you want. They had the Piper control horns when I built mine.

Here is a photo of the D&E wing that shows some of their setup http://www.supercub.org/photopost/data/781/Taylor_Cub_307.jpg
 
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