Advice about airstrip suitability

[BritishCubBloke]

Hello everyone and Merry Christmas.

I need some advice. I have just bought a house and there is a possibility I can buy some fields off the neighbouring farmer to create a strip. The maximum I could get (by burying some power lines) is about 950 feet of flattish grass on a hilltop, running roughly West-East, which is the prevailing wind. It's windy and gusty at times and we're only 750 feet above sea level. It's a cool, maritime climate, much like the Pacific Northwest. I have a stock 150HP PA18 with a climb prop and about 450 hours, most of them in the SC and most on farm strips around here. I am more or less competent at the very basics (I can hit the spot I want close enough most of the time), but no way a 'natural' pilot.

So far, so good, now the bummer.

There are 40 foot trees (maybe 50 foot?) about 20 feet from the Eastern threshold.

I haven't had the chance to shoot a dummy approach into here yet, so I may look at it from the air and go 'No way!', but what is people's immediate gut reaction on the information above?

I'd love a strip of my own right next to the house. Wouldn't we all? But I don't want to put myself into a position where I kill myself in pursuit of it.

BCB

 

[JP]

Interesting. A buddy of mine just built an airstrip that is very similar in description. The nice old woman next door, however, wasn't interested in selling him a bit of land to clear the approach to the "llama field" (the local municipality has been told the clearing is a llama and ostrich field--keeps bureaucracy to a minimum) and the 60 foot trees on her land were a wee bit of an impediment.

I'll be darned if the region didn't have a windy night during which all 7 of the offending trees fell over, clearing the approach. Why, the wind was so strong that they practically exploded and fell over. 8) Amazing.

My buddy is such a good smaritan that he offered to clear away the debris for free--the nice old woman next door was so pleased.

Moral of the story: If the approaches are clear, about a 1,000 feet should be room enough. If the approaches aren't clear, midnight dynamite works really, really well. :lol:

 

[Redbaron180]

I can't figure out how to vote, but go for it. I use 800' on a regular basis with my PA 18 150, and it is plenty if you do it right. With the trees on one end there will be times you might not want to go or come, but most of the time it will be fine. nothing like keeping your plane at home.

 

[pzinck]

Short

Try to keep it as short as possible,you wont have to put up with husky owners. I am editing this now Cause some of you might take it too seriously (((((((JJJJJJJJUUUUUUSSSSTTTT Joking)))))) I built a small strip,at first it was about 550 ft with 35 to 40 ft trees,but with some good luck those straight cutting beavers cut trees along the river bank that i wasnt able to.Most people wont land there ,but works fine for my old cub and c-185.Hopefully if i can sell enough stuff by spring may build my own hangar.Its also on the river with a float ramp.its most rewarding mowing with the kids down there on my own little strip.Seems like the beavers and rotting trees are making it longer all the time.I have almost a 1000 now with a great cheat hole going out over river.The dep has never heard of the straight tooth beaver(they cut just like chainsaw).My only worry is there are some bald eagles nesting across river.We get along fine,but worried some environmentalists will start worrying about their quality of life with planes around.I think they nested there cause of the windsock.And then theres the deer my old lady feeds.I keep telling her airplanes and zoo's dont mix,but she thinks i can handle it.

 

[Fortysix12]

What is is the Supercub Published POH for 50ft obst. landing?
Sounds sounds like a real small margin of error. VG's,nitrous, and catapolt ought to solve and departure problems.

 

[Wingie]

BCB; Find yourself another strip with trees as high at one end that is otherwise WAY suitably long enough for you to land in. Go there with a couple of Traffic Cones and step off 800 feet (instead of the alleged 900 you think your strip will be) and plant the markers so after coming in over the trees you can still land past them safely. Then go make a pass at landing in that much distance over that high an obstacle. Next go get the best Super Cub pilot you know and challenge HIM to land in it. If he makes it look really easy, get him to teach you how to do it. You should never land anywhere where YOU are not comfortable unless it is to save your life and you don't CARE if you can fly the airplane back out again. Always trust that little voice that says "Don't do it". Seems like a normal Super Cub ought to be able to handle going into and out of what you describe regularly. Whether the Pilot can is ALWAYS the deciding factor. Go "run off the end" (or not) past your Traffic Cones someplace where you won't bend your airplane if you miss the landing. Only YOU can answer your question.

 

[JP]

Ditto. That little voice that says "don't do it" is a great one to listen to. If you here that little voice find someone that can either teach you how to do it or agree with you that it is simply not a good idea.

 

[Marc Olson]

What are the conditions at the Western threshold? Is it a clean approach that would allow landing in some tailwind conditions and a consistent departure in that direction?

Marc

 

[glassjet]

We have an 800 foot strip with 40' trees on one end and totally open on the other end... it is very doable landing in both directions.... just be careful about the obstacles especially if you ever land long and than do a go around...... Good Luck

 

[Gary Reeves]

I guess I'm a bit stunned that you would even ask us our opinion.

Sounds like a great spot

Much better than my back beach.

BUT!!

Since you asked, I don't feel you are ready for it.

You are the only one that can make the call, and you called for help.

PASS!

Pass until you are ready and confident.

Not landing there is a great move until you are ready to land there.

Meanwhile tie up the rights to do it when you are ready.

Gary Reeves

 

[RedBaron]

BCB...

I'm going to agree with GR, if you are asking about something anywhere near 900 feet long, you should pass until you're comfortable.
Now for a un-called for barb:
.....The bright side is if you try it and pile it up, (God forbid) at least you'll be right by your house and you can just run home and be drinking tea (or probably whisky) in your favorite chair within minutes. After flying hundreds of miles from towns I can't think of a better place to test your skills! :lol:
I voted go for it.....................RB

 

[BritishCubBloke]

Thanks everybody for such a terrific response!

Marc, the approach from the West is completely clear, although both ways there will be turbulence in windy conditions as it's on top of a hill. Coming in from the West with a tailwind you'll get a strong updraft as well.

My gut feeling on it is that it's probably OK in general and it's probably OK for me. I'll take it further, anyway. It's very interesting to hear people's thoughts on it.

I understand people's concerns about the fact that I am asking for help and that this means that in itself I'm not ready for it. However, don't neglect the fact that this forum is unbelievably useful. It's like asking your hangar buddy for an opinion. Also, I am extremely cautious, although not over-anxious. I understand the level of my ability and the need to take things forward in a considered fashion. I go into some fairly challenging strips (for my level and for here), one being a 500 footer, one-way in the bottom of a valley, uphill, involving a flight between two trees growing out of a hedge on the opposite side of the valley, then a drag down the hill and a 40 degree left turn. That strip is generally crosswind too.

I don't spend my flying hours cruising from one place to another at 6K, but we will see whether I have the skills! If I manage to get this together I will let you all know and post some pictures.

Wingie's advice sounds like a good next step.

And as someone said, there's always a cup of tea and sympathy in the kitchen if it all goes wrong!

Thanks again. I won't do anything stupid.

BCB

 

[Gunny]

BCB,

My home strip is 1600 feet paved that runs East - West. On the East approach the first 800 feet are relatively level. The next 800 feet are sloped downhill at maybe a 15-20% grade. Landing to the West (using the East approach) if you come in hot, touch down long and roll to the middle of the strip where the downhill grade starts you will end up rolling all the way to the West end because I don't like getting on the brakes on a downhill grade. Also, at the East approach end there are 80-100 foot trees displaced maybe 40-50 feet from the end of the pavement and no real threshold beyond the pavement.

The West approach is relatively open over a golf course and fields - so landing to the East is pretty easy with the open approach and uphill grade to help you get stopped it's pretty easy.

The problem is that the prevailing winds are from the West so 99% of the time you need to land using the East threshold over the trees etc. I routinely am down and stopped in 400 feet or less and that's on pavement. Grass would shorten the roll and I wish we had it. And by the way, I'm not a high time stick. I did practice landing there alot when I first started basing the airplane there after flying it a few times with an instructor.

What everybody said about your personal comfort level is spot on, but from your description it certainly sounds like a feasible strip. Hope it works out for you.

 

[JP]

I remember the very first time I took the -3 into its new home--a 1300 foot strip next to a lake with obstructions (trees and wires) on both sides.

All I could think as we made the approach was "My Goodness, how am I ever going to get into that little strip...!" It seemed so, so small.

But after a few tries with the Zen Cub Master guiding me, I started to get the hang of it. The Zen master let me loose to practice. Within a couple of weeks I was routinely landing and stopping in well under half of the strip. Landing and taking off from there got to be enjoyable and a delightful pastime.

There's nothing like coasting over the trees with the power off, holding it off to get rid of that last bit of speed, then transitioning to a full slip for the last 100 feet, alighting tail wheel first in a full stall onto the grass a mere 100 feet down the runway. Way fun.

But I will always remember my first impression.

That's the great thing about Cub flying. There is always a new adventure and a new skill just waiting around the corner.

 

[glassjet]

Do some practice runs at your home airport.... fly over the end at 50' and do a chop and drop... heavy slip if you are comfortable and see what you end up with.... Just remember their will be more pucker factor your first time into your new strip.... good luck

 

[T.J.]

Buy it:
You will learn how to get into and out of it.

 

[Fortysix12]

I'm with TJ. No substitute for land and lots of it, if you can afford it buy it. One things for sure,it will work part of the time and before you know it ,it will work all the time. Vg's and and an always tuned 18 will make it easier.

 

[sj]

Do some practice runs at your home airport.... fly over the end at 50' and do a chop and drop... heavy slip if you are comfortable and see what you end up with.... Just remember their will be more pucker factor your first time into your new strip.... good luck

Glassjet, This is good advice. Go to a friends strip and layout a 300' tape measure, or pace off some spots and put out some old buckets or something at certain points so can judge you take off and landing distance. Remember that the wind can do different things when coming over and through the trees. I went into Wiscasset Maine a couple years ago in a strong x-wind and it was like a sideways tornado on the runway.

sj

 

[CrossedControls]

BCB,
Well done that man. Is it in the same neck of the woods as your current stomping ground?
Getting in and out with the SC is just the laws of physics, doing it more that 28 days a year:- your dealing with unnatural forces.... the county planners. I wish you all the luck and good fortune in the world.

Pete

 

[Cajun Joe]

Happy New Year. BCB.
Sounds like a great place for an airport.
You didn't mention though, how far is it to
the restaurant?

 

[BritishCubBloke]

Thanks everybody,

I came over a couple of times yesterday and shot a couple of approaches. It feels like it might be OK. All I have to do now is persuade the farmer he wants to sell the land at a reasonable price (in other words not the price he is asking!).

CC -- it is about 12NM North of Eggesford, right on the edge of Exmoor, facing West at 750feet. If I get up and running, you must come in.

CJ -- the restaurant is about 50 yards away. Our kitchen and my wife!

SJ -- I went into a strip in the summer buried in trees up to about 100 yards from each side of the runway in a crosswind. It was extraordinary! The problem here will be more that it is perched on top of a hill, but that is like my own home strip anyway.

Happy New Year to all,

BCB

 

[courierguy]

I've been told I fly out of one the ugliest strips around, check it out at: www.skylinesolar.com/seewhatifly.htm. One good thing is anywhere (almost) I go its less of a challange. And yes, when things don't quite go right the shop is there also! My main fear for the last 20+ years has been the local county P & Z becoming aware of it, but hell its now zoned recreational so maybe no big deal, I'll have to ask about sometime.
I have a vintage S.C. factory brochure in mint condition, dates from the 60's or so, I'll mail it free to the first member to send me an address. Seems a shame for an experimental type (me) to have it.... I'm logging off but tomorrow I'll check my mailbox and the first name I come across gets it. Enjoy.
Tom

 

[peeto]

My friend and I go out of his farm strip that is 1,000 feet with 50'+ trees on one end and powerlines on the other with no problems whatsoever in his PA-11 (90 hp)...I'd say go for it!

 

[PA12driver]

I think you should send me a ticket! I will come over and teach you how to fly that cub into that spot! If that is not practical then I would do as suggested with the cones (at a strip that has an honest to goodness equal obtacle. Get some confinent instruction if you have a doubt. But you shouldn't have a problem with 800ft in a stock SC. (if on the days that are to turbulent don't fly! The more you do it the better you will get at it.

Red Baron--About like landing on Titty hill huh?

Tim

 

[Torch]

I am not trying to belittle you but try a 500 ft strip in the Alaska Range that looks like this.

It is one way in and one way out. I would love 950 ft, even with the trees. Piece of cake. However, ALWAYS ALWAYS watch the winds. They determine a lot about your landing. Don't do it with a strong crosswind or we will see pics of your wreck. Go for it otherwise. Just have to pick your days and wind conditions. Otherwise no problem.

 

[PA12driver]

Torch,

That one looks better then most we used to have in the Wrangells? looks like some of the sheep camp strips on the upper Tonsina River Here is another one way strip that definitely keep you on your toes.

350ft usable (hole just after the tuffs of grass by date stamp, one way period! Soft sand then rock, more then 5 mph push and it is not doable.

Practice, practice, practice,

Tim

 

[BritishCubBloke]

Update for all you kind people who replied to this query.

I have elected not to bury the power lines and bulldoze the hedge on my own field for the moment. I did have a go (6 times!) at one of my fields: 900 feet with 30 foot power lines on the threshold. Wind was fine, but I just couldn't get comfortable. I'd come over the lines with full flap and low airspeed, chop the power and between the dive for the ground and the far threshold looming up it just felt a bit hairy. I'd appreciate some guidance on how you guys deal with a height obstruction at the threshold of a short field.

Instead, I now go into a neighbour's field: unobstructed, 1100 feet, land any direction and I use just under half of it, with a ground run of about 250-300 feet on landing.

BCB

 

[pzinck]

Never dive for the ground,that will only increase your airspeed and the threshold will come up quicker.Keep the nose up and the air speed slow.After getting my liscense years ago,when i was trying to get in to a tight place after clearing obstacles or on final i would try to get to the ground by pointing the nose down.It took me a few years to get it through my thick skull,that by actually pointing my nose up would i end up on the ground quicker.I see this common mistake with lots of new pilots.If you are trying to land slow and short keep your nose up and adjust your sink with power.If you are high you need to pull back on your elevators,slow it down and boy will she settle quick.

 

[On Patrol]

Steve worked me on this same issue just last week. Full flaps after abeam the threshold and controlled power with power left in from there on. A slip on base to final was a great help along with SLOW SLOW SLOW. Controlled power was the ticket and in all actuality to make it a wheelie with maximum breaking a touch of power was needed on short final. If you look at the DVD Long Prop and Big Rocks you will see the Cub constantly adding 50 to 100 RPMs of power on short final. I am no expert by far but I was amazed on how it worked. John

 

[Gordon Misch]

pzinck, you're exactly right. Langewiesche, in "Stick and Rudder" goes into a lot of detail on this. Real slow means lots of drag, hence high rate of energy dissipation. Getting rid of that potential energy one has on clearing the obstacle is the name of the game. And of course merely converting it to kinetic energy by diving means excess float in the flare, waiting for it to dissipate. That's why slipping is so effective - the high drag of flying sideways means rapid energy dissipation.