3 point landings on pavement?

[NewtoCubs]

Many thanks! I'm on deck to fly this week and will check to see if anything has been done with the rig and will ask about the possibility of bent pedals. I try to turn my feet outward which is uncomfortable but will keep at it.

 

[cubdriver2]

Forget the brakes, just conscentrate on keeping it straight with the rudder pedals. If brake is needed let the instructor use them.
This might help also, rudder cables have slack in them between supports from their weight, maybe as much as a half inch of pedal travel. Keeping slight even pressure on both pedals will remove the slack so your inputs will do something instead of tightening the rudder cables. Make one foot slightly over power the other and you won't over control when your first input don't work

Glenn

 

[Gordon Misch]

The part of the front brake pedal that your shoe contacts should be parallel to the part that connects to the rear brake. Brian at Steve's Aircraft realigned mine, with brute force, in place. I was definitely impressed! Those guys know their stuff. It all works fine now.

 

[DENNY]

I will have to go against the advice of some here. You should learn how and when to use brakes early in your training. I watched a higher time pilot but new to tailwheels land his maul on centerline then slow but sure let the plane run off the right side of the runway in over 800 ft never once touching the brakes, not even a tap. When we asked if he tried the brakes to help keep it on the runway he response was his tailwheel instructor told him to never use the brakes on landing:roll: so he didn't. You are paying the person in the back seat, make them earn the money.
DENNY

 

[DENNY]

The part of the front brake pedal that your shoe contacts should be parallel to the part that connects to the rear brake. Brian at Steve's Aircraft realigned mine, with brute force, in place. I was definitely impressed! Those guys know their stuff. It all works fine now.

Yep one of mine had the same problem. The proper dose of BRUTAINE fixed it.
DENNY

 

[Utah-Jay]

It’s a cub, unless you are landing on a 400’ strip why do you need brakes? Just keep it straight with the rudder

 

[Steve Pierce]

First off I would not be using the brakes except to stop in front of the hangar in your situation. Second I would check the brake fluid level if they are stock non-vented brakes. The fluid being low will cause more brake pedal movement to actuate the brakes.

 

[mvivion]

I agree with both sides of this latest discussion. As Steve implies, brakes should not be your first solution to every swerve. Rudder, but more importantly, learning to sense and correct swerves EARLIER allows most everything in a Cub to be “fixed” with rudder. There are situations, however, when you’ve let things go too far…….

But comparing a Maule to a Cub in this regard is pointless. Very different dynamic.

Learn to sense those excursions BEFORE they become significant, and you can fix them with rudder. But also learn to use those brakes, because there will come a day….. But learn to use them by measure.

MTV

 

[SchulerJL]

Best heel brake shoes ever !


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

 

[hotrod180]

.... Keeping slight even pressure on both pedals will remove the slack so your inputs will do something instead of tightening the rudder cables. Make one foot slightly over power the other and you won't over control when your first input don't work Glenn

I agree with this, but the part about "forget the brakes"& "let the instructor use them" not so much.

I will have to go against the advice of some here. You should learn how and when to use brakes early in your training......DENNY

I agree. Brakes are a control input and as such should be used when necessary.

 

[sj]

Keeping slight even pressure on both pedals will remove the slack so your inputs will do something instead of tightening the rudder cables. Make one foot slightly over power the other and you won't over control when your first input don't work

Glenn

I teach this all the time, and it really helps.

As for brakes, people who fly skywagons are a bigger proponent of using brakes because they frequently run out of rudder. I never use the brakes on landing (except to stop - what they were made for) in the cub, but do occasionally have to tap the right one on landing in the 180.
Toe brakes are evil, and are the cause of a huge number of skywagon and carbon cub landing accidents.

sj

 

[DENNY]

It’s a cub, unless you are landing on a 400’ strip why do you need brakes? Just keep it straight with the rudder

For the same reason you do in a Maul/Cessna/whatever. I have seen Supercub / Cessna 170 / Pacer /ECT run off the side of the runway because they got behind the plane and did not have the simple reflex to tap a brake to pull it straight because "NEVER USE BRAKES WHEN LANDING" Was how they trained. Cubs are pretty forgiving to a point then they are not. Teaching students not to properly use the one tool that can save the plane when things get ugly makes not sense to me. I am not saying don't use the rudder but they also have to build in the brake tap reflex during training, when things go bad if you have to think about what to do it is too late.
DENNY

 

[frequent_flyer]

Toe brakes are evil, and are the cause of a huge number of skywagon and carbon cub landing accidents.

Why do you say that? I find the brakes in my FX-3 Carbon Cub to be very progressive, adequately powerful, and easily controllable. I have no tendency to apply brake when I don't want to and can easily apply required brake pedal pressure in any rudder pedal position. (For complete disclosure - I opted for the standard caliper size not the monster calipers and am running 26 inch ABW)

I towed at one contest with a borrowed Pawnee that had lethal brakes. The slightest touch of the pedals and they were on hard. Every landing was heels on the floor as I had been taught many years earlier.

 

[cubdriver2]

I agree. Brakes are a control input and as such should be used when necessary.

Agree, but you need to learn to walk before you need to worry about running.

Glenn

 

[mvivion]

I teach this all the time, and it really helps.

As for brakes, people who fly skywagons are a bigger proponent of using brakes because they frequently run out of rudder. I never use the brakes on landing (except to stop - what they were made for) in the cub, but do occasionally have to tap the right one on landing in the 180.
Toe brakes are evil, and are the cause of a huge number of skywagon and carbon cub landing accidents.

sj

Toe brakes, like a lot of other things in aviation, work just fine if the operator is participating at the appropriate level. I like em, but I’m always cognizant of where my feet are relative to pedals.

Frankly, it’s a “high wing/low wing” kinda thing in my opinion.

MTV

MTV

 

[sj]

Why do you say that?.

Too many experiences checking people out in various planes (including carbon cubs) where they inadvertently got on the brakes. It can be learned, but lots of primary nosewheel pilots land with their feet already on the brakes. It does not transfer well to tailwheel. I prefer to introduce people to tailwheel with heel brakes. keeps everybody out of trouble.

sj

 

[Fortysix12]

I've been told that 50% of Huskies have been on there nose as a direct result of toe brakes. Might be a bit exaggerated but they are notorious for going over. In an effort to help the situation foot/heel wells are an added to the floor board as a safety feature on Huskies.

 

[BC12D-4-85]

Re Post #84: I like the Cub rudder pedals to almost touch the firewall under full pressure. That allows my ancient feet (often inside thick winter boots) to work the heel brakes some, but rarely when slowing and rather more when slowly turning if the tailwheel or rudder are lazy to respond. Like in a stiff crosswind while taxiing.

I don't recall in primary training or later any instructor demonstrating brake action or effectiveness. Seems like it was self taught through hard knocks. Then once skis were installed and flown on icy surfaces the use of brakes went disappeared and other things were needed to steer or stop.

Gary

 

[cubdriver2]

Re Post #84: I like the Cub rudder pedals to almost touch the firewall under full pressure. That allows my ancient feet (often inside thick winter boots) to work the heel brakes some, but rarely when slowing and rather more when slowly turning if the tailwheel or rudder are lazy to respond. Like in a stiff crosswind while taxiing.

I don't recall in primary training or later any instructor demonstrating brake action or effectiveness. Seems like it was self taught through hard knocks. Then once skis were installed and flown on icy surfaces the use of brakes went disappeared and other things were needed to steer or stop.

Gary

Bingo, all new TW inductees need to learn on skis first

Glenn

 

[Utah-Jay]

Too many experiences checking people out in various planes (including carbon cubs) where they inadvertently got on the brakes. It can be learned, but lots of primary nosewheel pilots land with their feet already on the brakes. It does not transfer well to tailwheel. I prefer to introduce people to tailwheel with heel brakes. keeps everybody out of trouble.

sj

With my size 11 1/2 feet I have to be very careful and make sure my heals are on the floor. I only use brakes on short strips if necessary, but most short strips are gravel/grass/dirt so most of the time they are not needed if you hit your spot

 

[mvivion]

I've been told that 50% of Huskies have been on there nose as a direct result of toe brakes. Might be a bit exaggerated but they are notorious for going over. In an effort to help the situation foot/heel wells are an added to the floor board as a safety feature on Huskies.

Wrong on both counts. Nowhere near half of Huskys built have been on their nose. No doubt many have. A few Cubs, Cessnas, Scouts, etc as well.

And, the reason for putting buckets in the floor is for those mutants with size giant feet....us folks with "normal feet" have no need.

MTV

 

[frequent_flyer]

I've been told that 50% of Huskies have been on there nose as a direct result of toe brakes. Might be a bit exaggerated but they are notorious for going over. In an effort to help the situation foot/heel wells are an added to the floor board as a safety feature on Huskies.

"50% of Huskies have been on there nose as a direct result of toe brakes" That seems ambiguous to me.

Interpretation 1. 50% of all Huskies built have been on their nose because Huskies have toe brakes

Interpretation 2. Of all the Huskies that have been on their nose 50% of these incident were the result of Huskies having toe brakes

I call bullshit for either interpretation and I do have some Husky time.

I suggest another reason that Huskies, and other tail wheel aircraft, go on their nose or back. They are wheel landed stupid fast and then the pilot jumps on the brakes.

 

[JP]

Bingo, all new TW inductees need to learn on skis first

Glenn

I always love the first hour on skis as I occasionally go for brakes that no longer exist.....

 

[skywagon8a]

Want some fun? Fly a Stearman with little or no usable brakes. Brakes which had no possibility of even holding the plane during a engine runup. :evil:

 

[sj]

Interpretation 2. Of all the Huskies that have been on their nose 50% of these incident were the result of Huskies having toe brakes

How else would they get on their nose unless they hit a curb or something? You can pull the stick back with a big tailwind and cause it in a light enough tailed aircraft...

It is true heel braked airplanes get on their nose also, but I am willing to bet the percentage is way higher in toe braked ones. My own experience says so.

sj

 

[BC12D-4-85]

Heavy braking can cause the pilot's legs to push harder against brakes than intended. Momentum from rapid slowing in my experience, after having once stared at the ground and my recently dinged propeller. Unintended consequences are a great teacher.

Gary

 

[DJ]

On top of a healthy, properly adjusted brake system, I like these little pedal extensions to keep my feet at an ideal angle. As a Cessna guy it took a few hours getting used to heel brakes and then it was very natural and flows better than other planes I've been in.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app

 

[thaefeli]

Ive seen the pavement up front and personal (didn't go over, amazingly. Stood on it's nose for what seemed an eternity) in a Stinson 108-3 doing a BFR. He had replaced the awesome, almost not there, Cleveland drum brakes with disc. I've crawled out of an upside down Supercub trying to teach the new owner. Came equipped with Alaskan brake boosters.

As an instructor, I can overpower all of the controls except the brakes. When the student stands on the brakes, I am just along for the ride. Yeah, it sucks.

My Cub will not quite hold in place for a run up, on 31's. For me and the teaching environment: perfect!

I spend an hour with all newbies taxiing and turning, feel the brakes, and where they are. We never leave the ground.
I tell every one of them, as I was taught, if you need the brakes, you already F'd up. 98% success rate so far.

Years ago, I would climb into the Twin Otter right seat for left seat checkouts. I would have a very heavy yard stick in hand. I would brandish it and tell the new guy "if you touch that F'n tiller for anything other than parking the airplane Ill beat the living **** out of your hand with this! Your hand stays on the yoke until you are ready to park!". With differential beta and reverse, easy to control in crazy crosswinds. Just had to teach the right hand what to do.
We still had an average of 6 runway excursions per year, as guys would get anxious in a cross wind, quit flying the airplane and try to drive with the tiller.
At least they didn't go over.....
Tom

 

[DENNY]

Sooooooo This year I had the opportunity to let a young 5,000 hr ATP jet pilot get his taildragger endorsement in my cub. He is family married to my wife's nieces cousin. Ya some distance but nice kid and a someones got to get them trained. So we started on skis like the wise pilots say, I was able to show him how running off the glare ice runway was not bad as long as you miss the lights. He did it a week later but in he's defense it was a tailwheel issue. In the spring wheels came out and he had a week free I called in a CFI buddy for proper training and sign off. After his sign off he was out of state for a while so we went out for refresher flight and did ground loop practice at Big Lake strip. Yep, how many of you have ever practiced or trained on how and when to do an intentional ground loop? At 15 mph in a cub it is not a big deal and a whole lot cheaper than getting on your nose or all the way over. My IA pounded it into me that it was a lot easier to fix a tail or wingtip then a prop/engine teardown/both wings/jig the top deck!! I would much rather he get a wingtip then flip my cub so proper braking was talked about from day one. So when I say pilots should train to use brakes that is what I mean. What if everyone was trained on how to do an intentional ground loop?? How many planes could we save from going over?? I know of a few just at my home airport in the past few years from pilots not properly trained with brakes. Just like Spin/Stall training, hope to never get in an unintentional spin but now the reflex has been built in when it happens!
Now in defense of all CFI's, pilots are about the cheapest thing you can find on the planet earth. They will pay 2 grand for a watch that has a little timer hand but bitch and moan like you want the first born if they have to pay a CFI for a few more hours of good training and what FAA reg talks about intentional ground loop training?? If it is a new student pilot you will just overload them with info so ya you can only teach so much.
Now if it is a GOOD pilot with 300 or more hours then it should be mostly just ground training, tail up, tail down, one wheel, than the other wheel, proper trim, proper rpm, braking, cross wind, ground loop, run off and on the runway a few times just to show them it really is fine as long as you don't hit things with the props. (I got 3 lights with wheels over the years). All that will suck for the CFI because they will all try to kill ya the entire time!! In the end show them a single 3 point landing because even nose wheel pilots know the best way to land a plane is a wheel landing because the is all they do!!
DENNY

 

[h2oavi8r]

Sooooooo This year I had the opportunity to let a young 5,000 hr ATP jet pilot get his taildragger endorsement in my cub. He is family married to my wife's nieces cousin. Ya some distance but nice kid and a someones got to get them trained. So we started on skis like the wise pilots say, I was able to show him how running off the glare ice runway was not bad as long as you miss the lights. He did it a week later but in he's defense it was a tailwheel issue. In the spring wheels came out and he had a week free I called in a CFI buddy for proper training and sign off. After his sign off he was out of state for a while so we went out for refresher flight and did ground loop practice at Big Lake strip. Yep, how many of you have ever practiced or trained on how and when to do an intentional ground loop? At 15 mph in a cub it is not a big deal and a whole lot cheaper than getting on your nose or all the way over. My IA pounded it into me that it was a lot easier to fix a tail or wingtip then a prop/engine teardown/both wings/jig the top deck!! I would much rather he get a wingtip then flip my cub so proper braking was talked about from day one. So when I say pilots should train to use brakes that is what I mean. What if everyone was trained on how to do an intentional ground loop?? How many planes could we save from going over?? I know of a few just at my home airport in the past few years from pilots not properly trained with brakes. Just like Spin/Stall training, hope to never get in an unintentional spin but now the reflex has been built in when it happens!
Now in defense of all CFI's, pilots are about the cheapest thing you can find on the planet earth. They will pay 2 grand for a watch that has a little timer hand but bitch and moan like you want the first born if they have to pay a CFI for a few more hours of good training and what FAA reg talks about intentional ground loop training?? If it is a new student pilot you will just overload them with info so ya you can only teach so much.
Now if it is a GOOD pilot with 300 or more hours then it should be mostly just ground training, tail up, tail down, one wheel, than the other wheel, proper trim, proper rpm, braking, cross wind, ground loop, run off and on the runway a few times just to show them it really is fine as long as you don't hit things with the props. (I got 3 lights with wheels over the years). All that will suck for the CFI because they will all try to kill ya the entire time!! In the end show them a single 3 point landing because even nose wheel pilots know the best way to land a plane is a wheel landing because the is all they do!!
DENNY

Please explain in detail intentional ground loop training. Sounds like something I want to practice with my CFI.
Thanks!
Robert