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3 point landings on pavement?
- Thread starter Narwhal
- Start date
40m
SPONSOR
Shoreham, VT
Same here with an EX2.
bob turner
Registered User
I flew a Citabria with oleo gear and square tail. I have its date somewhere - 1968 from memory. Prefer the spring aluminum gear now being used.
The J4 has oleo gear, but doesn't have the peculiar drop-down feature that the Aeroncas had - I think the fluid in the J4 struts is more for lubrication than anything else.
The J4 has oleo gear, but doesn't have the peculiar drop-down feature that the Aeroncas had - I think the fluid in the J4 struts is more for lubrication than anything else.
BC12D-4-85
SPONSOR
Fairbanks, AK.
There were a couple of Citabria spring gears. The early were stout and wide while later versions had tapered gear ends near the axles. I had both and the latter were softer. My 7GCBC was converted to Scout gear that rarely moved as it was designed for a heavier GW model. We also measured the toe in/out and shims were added to align the wheels which helped (it had Cessna solid axles for skis). Don't recall the final dimensions but it was a handful before the adjustments.
Gary
Gary
wyatterup
Registered User
West of the Alaska Range
Practice “dragging the strip” with a go-around. It will help with all your landings by getting the differing view of the horizon and cowl ingrained in your head for each technique. I use wheel landings most the time for the same reason we use “ soft field” techniques and it keeps the debris out of the horizontal stabilizer. Just stay away from the brakes though.
flagold
Registered User
Abbeville, Alabama
Both P-40 instructors I knew said the same thing: "the airplane will tell you what to do - when you get close, if it sinks - 3 point it - if it floats, wheel land it." A lot of the written maxims in stone stuff about always wheel landing came from much larger aircraft than we're used to: B-17's and the like. Landing on that little wheel was a no no.
I tried to stay pretty much to gravel runways when I was first learning to fly with my Pacer and Goodyear tires. After 150 hours I started making myself always land of tar if it was available over the dirt. It just made me stay sharper and helped clean up some sloppy foot work. When I got my Bushwheels I went back to dirt but never feared the tar again. Don't be afraid to tap a brake to get the plane straight. I have watched a new Maul driver do a very shallow angle 3 point drive off the runway, then eventually ground looped. Never touched either brake which could of saved him several times because his CFI had told him to never use brakes on landing:roll: One way to make rudder use a reflex instead of something you have to think to do and it even works in a nose wheel, is to fly without using the yoke/stick once you are up and heading somewhere. Trim the plane and set your RPM. Now just let go of the yoke and use rudder/trim/RPM to get to your destination. Getting into some mild turbulence is great for this exercise. It is very easy to pick up a wing and keep the plane going straight with the rudder alone and after a few hours of this you will no longer have to think about it, it will just happen.
DENNY
DENNY
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
I still like to see where I’m going, and what’s ahead of me. And, I’m not tall. So I almost always perform tail low wheel landings. When I say tail low, I’m talking an inch off the ground at the touch. Then, tail comes up to kill AOA, and steer.
With a properly done tail low wheel landing, speed is almost identical to a proper three point.
The surface really doesn’t make much difference to me.
Every student needs to learn three point AND wheel landings. Beyond that, use what YOU like best.
In a gusty cross wind I often three point. Otherwise, I do everything I can to be kind to that little wheel and the structure it’s attached to.
MTV
With a properly done tail low wheel landing, speed is almost identical to a proper three point.
The surface really doesn’t make much difference to me.
Every student needs to learn three point AND wheel landings. Beyond that, use what YOU like best.
In a gusty cross wind I often three point. Otherwise, I do everything I can to be kind to that little wheel and the structure it’s attached to.
MTV
flagold
Registered User
Abbeville, Alabama
Certainly agree with the two posts above, especially practice landing on all the surfaces you can since sometime you'll have to do it. A good thing about pavement is when the tires grab (and they will) you can roll the airplane up on the gear if you have to and let speed bleed. We don't always hit perfect, especially at night. I did a lot of night flying in the SC's Husky and C-180 and always knew when I took off from N. Ga in the late afternoon I was in for a night landing at BKV on pavement in Fl. At night you're not only feeling for the runway but listening for the tires to scrub it. I would try to come in slightly tail low (as described above) and if it didn't sink right away, roll it up on the main gear and let the speed bleed off. The last thing you want to do at night is drop it in trying a stall landing - that rarely works out well. All of it is no problem if you practice some on pavement and save your good tires for elsewhere. I did know a pilot that routinely rolled the tires in grass and then hopped the lights onto the runway in his Cub. I wasn't quite that frugal or confident, but he did it so many times I have to admit he saved a lot on tires that I didn't.
hotrod180
FRIEND
Port Townsend, WA
I was just re-reading the beginning of this thread and this caught my eye-- 50 hours time-in-type, wow!
My hangar neighbor put his C180 floatplane on wheels a few years ago, and with no tailwheel time his insurance wanted 25 hours, which seemed excessive.
RaisedByWolves
FRIEND
Tx
A lot of old tailwheel instructors told me never ever use the brakes.
I like having great brakes, and knowing how to use them is another trick in your hat.
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mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
When I’m serving in the role of Instructor in a tail wheel plane, I make it clear that the “student” until further notice, may NOT use the brakes.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with “real life” as we know it. My good friend Tom Wardleigh, with ~ 30K hours of flight time, LOTS of it tailwheel, and a lot of that instructing, called me one evening, and noted that there is nothing a CFI can do during a landing when the “student” places his size 14 boots firmly on the tops of the Cessna 180s pedals, and pushes hard during a landing. I groaned and asked if this was based on very recent personal experience? “Yep, today at Merrill.”. If it could happen to Tom……
But, back to “real life”: I use brakes a fair amount, and in Cessnas and other heavier t/w planes, almost subconsciously, in routine ops. But, I rarely use HARD braking.
The 185 and heavier planes, I never hesitate to use moderate braking if any swerve starts to develop….those are just too hard to “fix” once they develop. But in Cubs and similar light planes, I generally reserve braking for stopping short and taxi.
But, in aviation, as in many of life’s adventures, when someone uses the terms “always” or “never”, my eyebrows respond. There are rare places in aviation where those terms apply, but probably not to braking.
MTV
Which has absolutely nothing to do with “real life” as we know it. My good friend Tom Wardleigh, with ~ 30K hours of flight time, LOTS of it tailwheel, and a lot of that instructing, called me one evening, and noted that there is nothing a CFI can do during a landing when the “student” places his size 14 boots firmly on the tops of the Cessna 180s pedals, and pushes hard during a landing. I groaned and asked if this was based on very recent personal experience? “Yep, today at Merrill.”. If it could happen to Tom……
But, back to “real life”: I use brakes a fair amount, and in Cessnas and other heavier t/w planes, almost subconsciously, in routine ops. But, I rarely use HARD braking.
The 185 and heavier planes, I never hesitate to use moderate braking if any swerve starts to develop….those are just too hard to “fix” once they develop. But in Cubs and similar light planes, I generally reserve braking for stopping short and taxi.
But, in aviation, as in many of life’s adventures, when someone uses the terms “always” or “never”, my eyebrows respond. There are rare places in aviation where those terms apply, but probably not to braking.
MTV
bob turner
Registered User
We added a Stearman pilot - 600 or so total time. Insurer wanted 25 hrs tailwheel before starting the Stearman, then only five hours in the big bird. We did the first 25 in the J3. We are closing in on 15 in the Stearman, and getting ready for narrow runway work. Insurers are wising up.
On that Maule - there are some models of Maules that are unstable with the tail off the ground at low speed.
On that Maule - there are some models of Maules that are unstable with the tail off the ground at low speed.
stoldriver
Registered User
Arizona
There's nothing wrong with a three point and there's nothing wrong with a wheel landing. Some airplanes like one better than the other. I owned a 170 for 17 years and that one loved to three point so that's what I usually did. I've owned my current 180 for 22? years and it has communicated to me that it likes to wheel land so that's what I usually do in it. The times I've flown cub types, they seemed to like three points or wheels just fine. In the dc-3, I never did a three point and was in fact, forbidden to do so by the boss. Evidently, that's a good way to break one and when you are weighing 27000 lbs, you just wheel land the thing. Oddly enough, a guy I knew that flew c-46s in Vietnam Nam said they would three point great. Never heard anybody say that about the three, though. Anyway, in light airplanes, I agree with the above, you need to know how to do both. Eventually, you may get too a point where in a particular airplane, you will like one better than the other.
Wayne
Wayne
OK… I’ve been reading all of this and I finally have to chime… I just realized how lucky I was leaning how to fly…
Three freaking years as a cocky snot nosed kid that my instructor forced me to do crosswinds landings in either a Cub or Champ, on skis or wheels, on short grass strips or long asphalt runways, before I could solo at 16. He was one of those rare instructors that would let you screw up to the absolute worst point, then save your bacon. Oh, he’d be yelling at you, telling you what to do to save the landing, but he wouldn’t take the airplane away from you until the last possible minute.
P.S. Only done one wheel landing in over 30 years. 99.9% are full three points, even on asphalt with crosswinds. Stick into the wind, opposite rudder, no brakes unless absolutely needed (had a tailwheel control spring disconnect on an asphalt runway, with a bad crosswind. .. that was interesting)
Worst airplane I ever flew was a rattle trap Pacer… that damn thing wanted to head anywhere but straight down the runway. Come to find out, one axle was bent out of alignment by over 3/4”. But it was a Pacer… those things have yokes… can you even consider that a real airplane? (Ok… I hope you guys know I’m being totally sarcastic and just kidding!)
Three freaking years as a cocky snot nosed kid that my instructor forced me to do crosswinds landings in either a Cub or Champ, on skis or wheels, on short grass strips or long asphalt runways, before I could solo at 16. He was one of those rare instructors that would let you screw up to the absolute worst point, then save your bacon. Oh, he’d be yelling at you, telling you what to do to save the landing, but he wouldn’t take the airplane away from you until the last possible minute.
P.S. Only done one wheel landing in over 30 years. 99.9% are full three points, even on asphalt with crosswinds. Stick into the wind, opposite rudder, no brakes unless absolutely needed (had a tailwheel control spring disconnect on an asphalt runway, with a bad crosswind. .. that was interesting)
Worst airplane I ever flew was a rattle trap Pacer… that damn thing wanted to head anywhere but straight down the runway. Come to find out, one axle was bent out of alignment by over 3/4”. But it was a Pacer… those things have yokes… can you even consider that a real airplane? (Ok… I hope you guys know I’m being totally sarcastic and just kidding!)
I don't have the years of experience that you do, but my numbers are almost completely opposite - 95%+ wheel landings. Maybe it has to do with what our intentions were when we were trained? My instructors (both initial and tailwheel-specific) knew that my goal was primarily off-airport work. I was taught to keep that tailwheel off the ground, especially when landing in rough areas. I still pick pretty conservative places to land compared to many of the more experienced sticks on here, but still, I land on the wheels, keep the tail low but off the ground as long as possible, and smash the hell out of those brakes if the strip is short with alders or worse at the other end. Suppose I could improve on a steep, slow approach so as to negate the need for brakes on short mountain strips. I've got a lot to learn, no doubt, but that's worked for me so far.
I’m with Techteach, about 99.9% three point in all kinds of weather. Never had the need or desire to wheel land anything I’ve flown. The only wheel landings I’ve done were to demonstrate I could do them on check rides, or when teaching someone tailwheel techniques (to check the box). Granted when you move to multi engine, some recommend always wheel landing them, but I don’t have Beech 18 or DC-3 time, so I can’t comment on that. For single engines from J-3 to Howard DGA-15, I’m much more comfortable with 3 point landings. My first landing with the Howard was with a 28 kt direct cross wind on pavement. Might not have been the smoothest landing (few Howard landings are), but nothing got broken, and never strayed more than a couple feet from my intended centerline (note I said intended, to reduce cross wind component, I always land on a diagonal if the wind is blowing).
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hotrod180
FRIEND
Port Townsend, WA
A friend of mine used to say this also.... until I asked him why he always wheel lands his Beech 18.
Well, since I have your attention, here's my experience:
I have taught tailwheel to lots of people all the way through from the beginning, as well as many tailwheel endorsements in many different airplanes. Some, of course, can really only be landed in a three-point attitude due to the design. But in every other case I have made sure that they have proficiency in both types of landings. I do lots of crosswind and full-length takeoffs and landings. Anyone can fly a tailwheel; it's when you're in contact with the earth that things are challenging.
At the end, I always ask them which style of landing gives them more positive control of the plane in gusty crosswinds, and they always say that the wheel landing helps them maintain positive control, since there is a clear transition from flying to driving (the weight of the plane is transferred smoothly and quickly from the wings to the wheels). Of course, they may feel this way because of subtle influence from me.. But I certainly have seen this in my experience for 35 years since I bought my first tailwheel airplane and was sent out on my own, since there was no requirement for an endorsement at that time.
The other factor is what I've seen as a mechanic. I've seen lots of flat tail tires and broken tail springs (and the associated damage), so I always encourage pilots to mainly use the tailwheel to support the plane when parked. The mains are built to take the abuse..
It is hard to do a nice wheel landing, but it sure is pretty when done right.
All being said, I sure know a lot of old timers who love three points!
I have taught tailwheel to lots of people all the way through from the beginning, as well as many tailwheel endorsements in many different airplanes. Some, of course, can really only be landed in a three-point attitude due to the design. But in every other case I have made sure that they have proficiency in both types of landings. I do lots of crosswind and full-length takeoffs and landings. Anyone can fly a tailwheel; it's when you're in contact with the earth that things are challenging.
At the end, I always ask them which style of landing gives them more positive control of the plane in gusty crosswinds, and they always say that the wheel landing helps them maintain positive control, since there is a clear transition from flying to driving (the weight of the plane is transferred smoothly and quickly from the wings to the wheels). Of course, they may feel this way because of subtle influence from me.. But I certainly have seen this in my experience for 35 years since I bought my first tailwheel airplane and was sent out on my own, since there was no requirement for an endorsement at that time.
The other factor is what I've seen as a mechanic. I've seen lots of flat tail tires and broken tail springs (and the associated damage), so I always encourage pilots to mainly use the tailwheel to support the plane when parked. The mains are built to take the abuse..
It is hard to do a nice wheel landing, but it sure is pretty when done right.
All being said, I sure know a lot of old timers who love three points!
RaisedByWolves
FRIEND
Tx
You bring up a good point, push that stick forward and the tailwheel shimmy will go away. Pinning all that weight with the stick back isnt a good idea
Cubuser1099
Registered User
Northwest Georgia
I land my 7EC three point 99% of the time. If really landing short I’ll land tailwheel first for the “smack down”. No change for pavement or grass. Sometimes I’ll raise the tail if large rocks are an issue and plenty of room.
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I'm new to the forum and glad to see this discussion. Just getting started on a tail wheel endorsement and now have a whopping six hours in the Super Cub. I'm having trouble with the three point landings in that swerving while attempting to brake has become a real issue. Trying to control both brakes and rudder simultaneously seems to be physically impossible. Using one or the other should not have to be a choice. One element I noticed is that the rear seat brake pedals, when depressed, are aft of the rudder pedals, allowing my instructor to better control the aircraft (think normal foot/ankle angle). In the forward cockpit, the brake pedals sit way forward of the rudder pedals when depressed at all and it's nearly impossible to control both brakes and rudders without the aircraft getting squirrelly. While I'm very physically fit, the human ankle doesn't flex like that unless your a ballet dancer (I am not) or its broken (no, its not). : )
Looking at the aircraft, I noticed the brake cables are loose / stretched between forward and rear controls. Are any of you aware of the rigging requirements for the pedals? I mentioned this to my instructor and he was going to follow up on my question with the resident A&P.
Have any of you had this issue, and how was 1) the pedal rig addressed, and 2) rudder / brake control technique developed? Thanks in advance for your responses to this complete tail-dragger newbie.
Looking at the aircraft, I noticed the brake cables are loose / stretched between forward and rear controls. Are any of you aware of the rigging requirements for the pedals? I mentioned this to my instructor and he was going to follow up on my question with the resident A&P.
Have any of you had this issue, and how was 1) the pedal rig addressed, and 2) rudder / brake control technique developed? Thanks in advance for your responses to this complete tail-dragger newbie.
cub yellow
FRIEND
North Central Wa.
Stay away from the brakes until you gain proficiency.
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frequent_flyer
Registered User
Arizona, USA
I really strugggled with heel brakes when I first flew a Citabria. I eventually found I could work them much more effectively with hard soled shoes rather than sneakers. Once I had become used to them it didn't matter what shoes I had on.
Still don't see the attraction of heel brakes and prefer toe brakes. Maybe it goes back to depending of what shoes/boots you wear in the airplane.
I agree that foot position and ankle angle is important. I had flown 2 different FX-3 Carbon Cubs and not found pedal position to be a problem. As soon as I got mine I found my foot position really awkward. Solved this by extending the rudder cables to max length at the rudder horn. (Yes, I did check fire wall clearance with max rudder and max brake)
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
There is variability in Cubs as to position of brake pedals in relation to the ripudder pedals, right, wrong or indifferent. I’m sure there’s a spec there, but I’ve seen extremes in both directions.
And, of course, when you need that brake the most/quickest is when that same rudder pedal (and your foot) are waaaaay forward. Those of us with short feet love those situations.
Bottom line, you can get your mechanic to change the length of the cable between front and back brake pedal ( good luck) or just adapt to what you have.
MTV
And, of course, when you need that brake the most/quickest is when that same rudder pedal (and your foot) are waaaaay forward. Those of us with short feet love those situations.
Bottom line, you can get your mechanic to change the length of the cable between front and back brake pedal ( good luck) or just adapt to what you have.
MTV
A few things could be happening. You most likely have bent brake pedals, that is a very common problem! https://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?56844-Heel-brakes-bent If that is the problem boots with big heels may help but best to get them fixed now!! Connection to rear brake could be jacked up it is usually just welding rod and pretty easy to fix. Pilots used to toe brakes want to keep the foot vertical when you fly heel brakes you should be landing Duck foot with the heel on the brake and toe turned out on the rudder. If you are new to heel brakes whenever you fly don't keep you foot vertical on the rudder pedals go Duck foot on the brake also after a while it will become natural.
DENNY
