185 vortex generators

[firebird]

So I recently installed Micro VGs on my Cub and noticed a great improvement. Thoroughly pleased.

Would I expect the same if I installed them on my 185

F model on amphibs, long range tanks. No other STOL mods. Stock wing tips

or is it a waste and should spend the $$$ and go with a full STOL kit with VGs

 

[stewartb]

Big improvement on my otherwise stock Camberlift wings.

 

[mvivion]

So I recently installed Micro VGs on my Cub and noticed a great improvement. Thoroughly pleased.

Would I expect the same if I installed them on my 185

F model on amphibs, long range tanks. No other STOL mods. Stock wing tips

or is it a waste and should spend the $$$ and go with a full STOL kit with VGs

My experience with adding VGs on three Cessna wings was that they sort of mellow out the stall, but not enough that I’d do it again. One of those planes had an early stock wing, one had a Bush leading edge kit, the last has a Sportsman cuff.

the VGs “mellowed” the stall a bit on all three.

But, hands down, THE BEST aerodynamic thing you can do for a Cessna wing is add the Sportsman kit. I put a couple thousand hours on a 185 with a RSTOL kit. Management wanted to try a Sportsman kit on one of our 185s. Mine got volunteered. I loved that plane with the RSTOL. Added the Sportsman, and it allowed me to SAFELY use that RSTOL kit.

It was amazing. I put a Micro VG kit on my 180 hp 170 and was pretty disappointed. It mellowed the stall a bit, on a plane that had a mellow stall to start.

VGs work well on a Cub wing, but in my experience, they don’t make nearly as much difference on a Cessna wing.

The Sportsman is the bomb on a Cessna wing. My current ride has that kit, and I love it.

Finally, I fueled that 185 myself almost all the time. It spent half the year on floats, so hip boots. I’ve come really close to cutting myself REALLY bad fueling with VGs.

VGs work on Cubs. I’d never put them on another Cessna.

MTV

 

[gntw]

Big improvement on my otherwise stock Camberlift wings.

Put BLR vgs on my 180k stock wing flown plane over 3000 hrs vgs on for 650 hrs lowered stall 6 to 7 knots like them .had a 180j 74 before added sportsman cuff didn’t do a lot for it .flew a 180 h model strait wing put sportsman on it and wing x big impovment

 

[algonquin]

I’m with Mike, I don’t care for the VG’s on Wagons. The Sportsman kit is the way to go and on floats I’d go with the WingX and the sportsman kit. Taught in a 185f with a kit and it would scare you at how slow it will fly with full control.

 

[stewartb]

I tell guys who ask that adding VGs on a Skywagon is like rolling the face of your airspeed instrument clockwise about 6 or 7 mph. Everything looks and feels exactly the same, just the airspeed is slower. Your 65 mph final attitude is now 58 mph. Guess what? Landings are shorter. Guys say they energize ailerons. If you fly the same speed with and without? That’s true. If you adjust the deck angle to the slower speed? Ailerons are just as they were before. I never noticed any change at takeoff.

 

[firebird]

Okay thanks guys!

MTV you make a good point about fueling lol. I slide around on the top of my wings fueling

 

[hotrod180]

Micro VG's would seem to be an attractive alternative to a Sportsman cuff-- less $$ to buy and way less effort to install.
I was on the fence about putting them on my old C150/150TD, but let someone talk me into them.
FWIW the 150 kit is only about half the price as for a 4 place Cessna.
I was unimpressed after installing them though--
they might work well in conjunction with a cuff, but I wouldn't put them on a stock Cessna wing again.
My two cents.

 

[DCB]

I had a similar experience installing VG’s on my Cub - an amazing improvement! The same didn’t apply when I installed them on my 185…in fact I couldn’t really tell the difference. As MTV noted the best bang for the buck on a Cessna wing is the Sportsman edge.

 

[firebird]

Okay thanks fellas!!

 

[mvivion]

Okay thanks guys!

MTV you make a good point about fueling lol. I slide around on the top of my wings fueling

Oh, man, if you crawl up on the wing to fuel, you do NOT want VGs out there. As I noted, fueling from cans on a VG equipped plane out in the bush, I always worried about bleeding out before I could get to help......

As others noted, I have heard great things about wing extensions on float equipped 185s. I've never actually worked one, though I've done quick flights in a couple, so I'm just passing on what I've heard from very experienced float pilots.

MTV

 

[DCB]

I flew for a few hundred hours between each mod...first the stock Cessna wing then Sportsmans edge cuff, then Vortex generators and finally wing extensions and so I had a pretty good reference when evaluating each. The Sportsman cuff and Wing extensions made about the same very noticeable improvement from the previous setup but the vortex generators didn't. The downside to the extensions was that it wouldn't fit in my hangar;-(

 

[Bill.Brine]

I can only speak to adding VG's to my stock Camber Lift wing: I would do it again. Vast improvement for about three seconds a flight. Those few seconds once felt like hours without the VGs.
My experience with Skywagons is limited at best as compared to others.

 

[charlesf]

I put vg’s on my 185. No regrets. No problem fueling. I felt I had better aileron authority at the low end, especially in the flare. Also put the Bush leading edge cuffs on. I can’t tell you why, but the later model 185’s had a better feel on the low end. I would not make any changes, as the plane works well.

 

[bob turner]

I think I am agreeing with all of the above. I love the 180 with a cuff, and the 185 with the Robertson kit. I did not get a chance to play with the Sportsman before the owner put VGs on, and all I can say about Sportsman plus Micros is that I was way more comfortable at 55 mph with the cuff wing. With the Sportsman/Micros, 70 seemed to be the speed.

But then , I cannot even tell the difference in a Cub. I would rather invest in slotted flaps for the Cub, or a Dakota slotted wing.

 

[Painless Pete]

I put them on my 180J, stock wing etc. Very Pleased with the results. Would do it again for sure.

 

[mvivion]

Micro VG's would seem to be an attractive alternative to a Sportsman cuff-- less $$ to buy and way less effort to install.
I was on the fence about putting them on my old C150/150TD, but let someone talk me into them.
FWIW the 150 kit is only about half the price as for a 4 place Cessna.
I was unimpressed after installing them though--
they might work well in conjunction with a cuff, but I wouldn't put them on a stock Cessna wing again.
My two cents.

That was precisely my rationale for installing the Micro VGs on my otherwise stock Cessna 170B wings. I'd owned that plane for ~ 10 years prior. The VGs did "soften up" the stall a little. Meaning that the tendency to break aggressively was reduced. But, this plane never had what I'd call ugly stall characteristics.

Lowered stall speed? Nope. If there was indeed a decrease, it may have been one knot....but, absolutely no more than that. Approach speed lowered? Yep, but, that's INDICATED speed, and the fact that the VGs make the plane "feel" more solid, so you're willing to fly slower. Stall speed didn't change in this case, or at least one of the other Cessnas I had experience with.

Frankly, pilots apply WAAAAAY more credibility to that airspeed instrument than it deserves. But, there's a reason there are a couple different (sometimes significantly different) "flavors" of what we call "airspeed".

But, bottom line, as I noted earlier, there's no way I'd install VGs on another Cessna wing. Especially if I had to fuel it in the bush.

MTV

 

[stewartb]

All the Cessna guys I know in the “bush” consider VGs essential equipment. We all fuel planes. Some of us never have issues with our VGs. Wing covers are no problem, either. I have knocked one off with a broom but that was my fault.

I like Bill Brine’s comment about VGs working great for about 3 seconds a flight. I’d say it’s closer to 10 seconds if you’re going in short.

 

[BC12D-4-85]

More fuel on the Cessna VG fire. Claims better aileron and empennage authority after VG's. Delete the ads at the beginning via SKIP. I've flown the Sportsman and Sportsman with Wing-X. The roll rate deteriorates "some" with the latter. Never flew VG's on a Cessna wing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-S7kiOyQnM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NE08QHjkuE

Gary

 

[skukum12]

I had a 54 180 with a stock wing. Then I flew my friend's 55 180 with VGs, sportsman and wingX. While I can't segregate what each mod accomplished, his plane was hands down the winner low and slow where it counts.

 

[DJ]

Keep it coming folks...we are restoring a C182D that came to us with WingX/Sportsman installed and a Micro VG kit new in the box. I've never flown a Cessna with VGs but I was planning to put them on.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app

 

[Charlie Longley]

I haven’t flown 180/185’s in a few years. I flew 185’s on the North Slope professionally before VG’s came out. One of them had a Robertson STOL kit on it. I didn’t like flying it on skis as the ailerons lost effectiveness at low speeds with the wing still flying. I think VG’s would’ve helped the ailerons a lot.

 

[Cardiff Kook]

Interesting the different opinions on this.

My 1979 has a naked wing.

My buddy has a 1978 and swears by vgs. He has no other stol kit. He has boundary layer so none on tail or rudder like micro vg. He is a pretty knowledgable guy.

Lots of other guys w tons of knowledge on here seem to think they are worthless.

Wonder if the camber cuff on later models makes them more valuable…. If the model year/other stol kits make the have or not have value…

 

[Cardiff Kook]

 

[algonquin]

I’ve had a 180 (56)and now a 185f ( 73’). Here’s M2C, both have factory stock wings and I’ve flown wagons with sportsman kits no VG’s. I really like the sportsman kit and would like the wing X combined together but don’t care for the VG’s getting the wing still flying when I want to plant it and keep it down. The gear when it bounces all by itself ( nothing I’ve done) and you are covering ground and need to be down and stopping. So that’s about all I got, there are so many different angles to look at.

 

[BC12D-4-85]

My observation is if we can see the ground, water lane, or runway ahead during T/O or landing, the AOA is not excessive. A stock wing is fine. Got a load or at high density altitude? Can't get enough AOA on floats or skis? The wing extensions that improve aspect ratio can help, and same for Sportsman cuff. Both add wing area. Tend to tool around slow in turns with flaps or in mountainous terrain requiring climb at high AOA? VG's might get you into the left side of the power curve/drag bucket a bit deeper until it finally quits. I'd rather feel the impending stall at a bit higher airspeed than be surprised when it finally happens.

Gary

 

[aktango58]

The amphibious 185 in sitka had all the wing stuff, VG, sportsman and wing X.

Yea, it had great control slowing way down, and would lift loaded very well. On floats you only need so much angle of attack because you want those floats at the correct angle to the water.

In Gulkana we have had the Sportsman, but VGs or extension on the wing flying wheels and skis. Light we are approaching in short final in the low 50s indicated, and yes that airspeed is accurate. Common to get stopped in a couple hundred feet coming in empty.

We have a 1,000 foot strip at 3,500 evevation that is a bit rough. We go in fully loaded and out with two pax and two packs.

If you add wing extensions, put the VG's on, the extensions slow your aileron effectiveness to the point that it can be very scary.

Now, on the other hand, practice will do more good than all of the above.

 

[BC12D-4-85]

Sealed ailerons (via the Sportsman STC) can improve aileron effectiveness at slow speeds. The Wing-X can slow aileron response, maybe even more so without sealed ailerons? When equipped with VG's but without the Sportsman cuff, would sealing the aileron's return some effectiveness? I assume so, but has anyone done it that can offer insight?

Aileron gap seal kit: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pdf/AILERON.pdf

Gary

 

[skywagon8a]

Be careful about installing too many of these lowering stall speed devices. It is possible to reduce the stall speed too low, to where you now run out of rudder. When you run out of rudder and aileron at the same time because you are slow on take off with full power.......and the strip is too short to abort safely.....well, use your imagination. You may be calling for the helicopter at best.

A stock post 1972 (cuffed wing) 185 is very capable on it's own. All the devices in the World don't make you a better pilot.

 

[Bill.Brine]

Interesting the different opinions on this.

My 1979 has a naked wing.

My buddy has a 1978 and swears by vgs. He has no other stol kit. He has boundary layer so none on tail or rudder like micro vg. He is a pretty knowledgable guy.


Lots of other guys w tons of knowledge on here seem to think they are worthless.

Wonder if the camber cuff on later models makes them more valuable…. If the model year/other stol kits make the have or not have value…

I know three of the respondents to this thread in real life. Three gentlemen I trust. Three with more Skywagon time than most of us will ever fly. When Mike, George and Pete talk listen.

I put Micro VGs on the wings and tail feathers of my 180K stock Cessna camberlift wing. As I said earlier in this thread they work great for a few seconds(3-10) a flight. I believe those few seconds of improved control authority are worth the price of admission. If you fly the plane like a Cirrus the new VG's will go unnoticed but if you fly the Cessna the way the George, Mike and Pete do you may like the addition of the full VG set. Be warned that no magical increase to your judgement or skills come in the box from Micro VG folks.. And no disrespect to Cirrus or Cirrus drivers; some of my favorite people drive Cirrus Aircraft. Cirrus are comfortable, modern looking and go fast between paved runways.