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Anti-STOL Article on AVweb

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Originally Posted by CenterHillAg

I fly ag for a living, and you should see the way most people freak out when I tell them that. They think we’re drunk cowboys that crash airplanes daily and coat the schoolyard with poisons, the industry has been a pretty clean one for 30-40 years but that’s still the public perception. Most airports don’t want us to run off them, and I’ve had every creed, color, and religion file complaints with various government agencies on me. The wires, trees, and other obstacles don’t bother me, but a stranger videoing me or making a call keeps me up at night.

STOL competitions will end up with the same perception if some serious self policing doesn’t begin soon. Personally I don’t see the point in the Arkansas setup or the real world application to it, but I’m not opposed to it nor do I want to see the feds regulate it out of existence. Both sides of the aisle hate ag flying, it’s rare to find anyone lift a finger in support of the industry. Don’t let STOL competitions end up the same way."



Perceptions are important. I don't totally agree with Roy's assessment. That said, I know and respect him, and his point of view. He has a very nice PA-11 as well, and does in fact fly the back country. I do think he has some valid points.

MTV

I'm sure he's a good man and everyone is entitled to their opinion and yes, he did make some points. After looking more into this I amended my comment above about Pierce and his competition specifically. That was a whole different deal than this (after being out of flying I don't keep up well). If the ag-pilots here got together and made a team spraying (yes that was done) competition where each team was required to have a minimum of 3 airplanes in the field at one time, with a minimum of 10 laps with the winning time being the sole factor - I'm quite sure it would generate another article - because it would have no real world application at all, it's simply a dreamed up competition for no other reason than to compete.

It gets complicated when perception and regulation impedes on the real world activity.
 
The criticism of the event illustrates the gap between "back country" flying, strips you can google, likely on a sectional, for sure on YouTube and real "off airport" flying. Two different things to my mind, though they always get lumped together. The skill set needed for the second is similar but a bit different then the former, a point that Roy fails to comprehend. It's why he doesn't get the way the course is set up. I'm not saying it's all good, and maybe should be adjusted a bit, just getting into the heads of the organizers and their original intent.
 
The criticism of the event illustrates the gap between "back country" flying, strips you can google, likely on a sectional, for sure on YouTube and real "off airport" flying. Two different things to my mind, though they always get lumped together. The skill set needed for the second is similar but a bit different then the former, a point that Roy fails to comprehend. It's why he doesn't get the way the course is set up. I'm not saying it's all good, and maybe should be adjusted a bit, just getting into the heads of the organizers and their original intent.

How is having four airstrips (and they ARE airstrips, NOT off airport sites) close together somehow represent "Off airport" in any way?

Again, I think comparing any of these events to "real life" flying is a fool's errand. Yes, there are skills that transfer, but jumping around from one immaculately groomed grass runway to another somehow represents off airport flying? I haven't flown that course, so maybe it does, but I have my doubts.

That said, as I noted earlier, why does anyone feel like they have to "Justify" these events as anything but competition type events? Obviously, ANY flying that requires improvement of skills is useful in back country flying, be it to airports or off airport.

I think what will "manage" all these events ultimately is liability. That's what killed Gulkana back in the day....the Lions Club ran it, and they were unable to get event insurance, or the cost was too high.

Kevin Quinn and company ran smack into this when they applied to Reno Air Racing to join that event with the STOL Drag. And, good for them, they went through the hoops to become sanctioned by that organization, which has very high standards of safety. What that meant was you don't just show up and race....you have to meet certain standards.

That'll likely happen elsewhere. I guarantee that three accidents, even fender benders, in a week of an event is going to get the attention of an insurance underwriter. And, if the event isn't insured....one law suit will take care of that.

Unfortunately, liability is what drives these kinds of events to be better and safer. Not perfectly safe, mind you, but safer....

MTV
 
How is having four airstrips (and they ARE airstrips, NOT off airport sites) close together somehow represent "Off airport" in any way?


If there was one public use un-paved airstrip in Arizona that looked half as good as any of those on the course I'd be going there almost every week. I haven't operated on a grass strip for over 30 years. I don't count the landing on a golf course fairway. (One of the nicest places I ever landed but some of the locals were not too pleased to see me).
 
The close manuvering, cranking and banking at low elevation, is what made me compare it to more of a tight off airport op than turning base at Sulpher Creek, as a for instance. It all has no interest to me, I also am not going to the High Sierra event. Went the first year, beat Pops D by a few tenths of a second, quitting while I'm ahead!
 
Not aimed at anyone in particular!!!! I've read a few times about banking at low altitude . . .

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An excellent way to get killed. If you fellows (and lady) truly want to learn to fly low - that is a specialized skill that requires training. A certified course taught by certificated people that know what they're teaching and are not afraid at all to wash you out of the program if you're not meeting the marks safely. No nonsense military or military style (oddly by people that were in the military) training.

People who fly low, have learned to "fly the baseball":

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Within 1 wingspan (or lower but never higher) of the terrain, as these fellows are learning to do:

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They do this at speed, not to look good or for any other reason than building a cushion of air ahead of the main spar:

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As opposed to the ground effect we are first introduced to in soft field takeoffs:

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The "baseball" can clearly be seen in this old photo of me spraying a peanut field:

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I hope the above doesn't come off a condescending, a lot of you have many hours and much experience - but true low level flying is not competition or about competition: it is a hard earned and hard taught skill.
 

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About the only part of this that has any meat in it at all is if they fly over houses or crowds during the competition. IMHO any attempt at trying to protect people from themselves is going to be problematic. That's the nature of the free country we live in. One persons "dangerous" is another person's "routine". I damn sure do not want someone else making that correlation for me.

If you are not harming others (potential or otherwise) then rock on. The airshow industry went through this many years ago. They got revised crowd control lines, scatter patterns etc. The Aerobatic Competency Evaluators (ACE) do a damn good job of making sure folks have the experience needed to perform at these venues. The IAC further does a great job at mentorship through the various levels of competition. One doesn't just start in Unlimited.

At end of the day, if you can pass the requirements for entry then the rest is sorta up to you. The improvement most likely needed in this case is in the vetting of the participants and some logical crowd control procedures. I bet we will see changes in the future. It's a new event and they will have some growing pains.

One huge benefit has been the innovation and boundary pushing we have seen in recent years. For that, we all benefit.
 
That writer has an opinion & IMHO he's entitled to express it.
I see lots of people here criticizing the article, as well as it's author.
Why don't one of you guys write a rebuttal and ask Avweb to publish it,
instead of preaching to the choir here about how wrong he is.
 
That writer has an opinion & IMHO he's entitled to express it.
I see lots of people here criticizing the article, as well as it's author.
Why don't one of you guys write a rebuttal and ask Avweb to publish it,
instead of preaching to the choir here about how wrong he is.
There is a comment section under the article. I tried to leave a comment ment but can't log onto my AvWeb account. Doesn't recognize my email address although they email me several times es a week. I gave up. From the comments both there and here I rea.ize I am in the minority and after some reflection I understand that.
 
I don’t have a lot of very close friends. I think that you and I are cut from the same bit of cloth. I would love to be busting gravel bars if it was available to me. I value you as a friend. Do what makes you happy and disregard the naysayers! (As long as Momma agrees!)

There is a comment section under the article. I tried to leave a comment ment but can't log onto my AvWeb account. Doesn't recognize my email address although they email me several times es a week. I gave up. From the comments both there and here I rea.ize I am in the minority and after some reflection I understand that.
 
The course in 2020 and 2021 did not fly over houses and crowds. (Unless you took this turn wider and flew over the houses in question down by the river. The crashes were in their front yard.). They did a very good job of controlling viewers from places that were dangerous. The qualification procedures have you land on the Restaurant airstrip (1100 ft) at less than 500 ft. During the competition, you land beyond that because you have to 180 and take off. That qualification needs to be looked at. The “impossible turn” is not evaluated. If you don’t want people to bust their asses then you need to tighten the qualification procedure.
About the only part of this that has any meat in it at all is if they fly over houses or crowds during the competition. IMHO any attempt at trying to protect people from themselves is going to be problematic. .
 
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There is a comment section under the article. I tried to leave a comment ment but can't log onto my AvWeb account. Doesn't recognize my email address although they email me several times es a week. I gave up. From the comments both there and here I rea.ize I am in the minority and after some reflection I understand that.

Same here.

But I don't feel strongly enough about the author's viewpoint to make the effort anyway, especially as the majority of pilots probably agree with him. I just felt the need to post my viewpoint that it ain't the course's fault, it's the pilots...unless they are holding a gun to their head and forcing them to fly the course that is.
 
I don’t have a lot of very close friends. I think that you and I are cut from the same bit of cloth. I would love to be busting gravel bars if it was available to me. I value you as a friend. Do what makes you happy and disregard the naysayers! (As long as Momma agrees!)

Ditto Eddie. Tony and I and a few others will continue to do what we do and have a good time doing it and hopefully meet other like minded people along the way. Been in Nebraska doing a Super Cub pre-buy and the owner perked up when I mention Johnson Creek. His next question was had I been to Soldier Bar and the conversation went on from there remembering all the fun we had there. He dropped me off at the airport this morning and last thing he said was he enjoyed visiting with me, he hadn't met anyone who flew in Idaho in a long time and it was great to talk to someone who had been there. Another friend made because of our fondness for the Super Cub.
 
Pretty good discussion with Doug Jackson last night on the HDHP, we touched on safety a bit. Doug was very candid about the issues they have had - I think this kind of transparent approach can make all of these events safer.


 
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Soldier Bar


Ditto Eddie. Tony and I and a few others will continue to do what we do and have a good time doing it and hopefully meet other like minded people along the way. Been in Nebraska doing a Super Cub pre-buy and the owner perked up when I mention Johnson Creek. His next question was had I been to Soldier Bar and the conversation went on from there remembering all the fun we had there. He dropped me off at the airport this morning and last thing he said was he enjoyed visiting with me, he hadn't met anyone who flew in Idaho in a long time and it was great to talk to someone who had been there. Another friend made because of our fondness for the Super Cub.
 

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Pretty good discussion with Doug Jackson last night on the HDHP, we touched on safety a bit. Doug was very candid about the issues they have had - I think this kind of transparent approach can make all of these events safer.



Caught it this morning while waiting to leave Nebraska. Doug did good, that is Doug as himself in the real world having fun. I see what happens when I am not around. ;)
 
I guess I need to amend things too. You guys just be careful. I was trying to say this in all that: Sometimes what looks safe isn't at all (like the knife edge turn thing I saw apparently to make time I would suppose) and what looks to be pure suicide (flying a B-17 low in ground effect) is actually the safe thing. If crop dusting was as dangerous as it looks, none of us would have done it. We're riding a hard ball of air (if we're doing it right) just like the WWII's did in B-25's.

About that low level turn: When you turn through the points of wind you can have an accelerated stall easy - lower the nose to whatever attitude it was flying in last and you've got a shot at recovery. Everything else is secondary to that. Good luck with the competition!
 
There is a comment section under the article. I tried to leave a comment ment but can't log onto my AvWeb account. Doesn't recognize my email address although they email me several times es a week. I gave up. From the comments both there and here I rea.ize I am in the minority and after some reflection I understand that.

I shared what was started as an entry in my journal/blog to hear comments like yours. I recognize I am an outsider to the STOL competition community, so I welcome any discussion on this that is, as MTV said, somewhat above that found when I shared this on Facebook.
 
I shared what was started as an entry in my journal/blog to hear comments like yours. I recognize I am an outsider to the STOL competition community, so I welcome any discussion on this that is, as MTV said, somewhat above that found when I shared this on Facebook.
I can imagine what the response was when you posted it on Facebook.
 
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