Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
Busy sending airplanes off, receiving others and trying to get one out the door today. Search model CC19 in this search engine and you will find the data. http://aviationdb.net/aviationdb/AccidentQuery#SUBMIT
Beringer ALG vs. Acme Aero for FX3
- Thread starter hawgdrvr
- Start date
turbopilot
Registered User
Apparently you lost interest and buried the headline in the review of the CC19 NTSB Accident reports. Could it be because thus far the NTSB reports underscores the point I was trying to make in all the dialog above? So here is the summary of the 6 reported XCub NTSB accidents. As we know there were probably more not reported to NTSB.
Bottom line there were 6 NTSB reports. One was fuel exhaustion and 5 were ground loops. Of the 5 ground loops, 2 involve partial right main gear collapse. There were no total gear collapses reported. There were no reports of prop or engine damage. This profile is entirely different than the reports involving the cub legacy gear equipped FX-3 aircraft where collapse of the legacy cub gear was the rule, not the exception.
So experience to date completely supports the assertions made by Brad Damm at CubCrafters in 2017 and the point I have been trying to make in this thread. Legacy gear cub tend to totally collapse when stressed beyond normal operating limits. So far XCub aircraft experience partial gear collapse which appears to spare the $12,500 Hartzell composite prop and save the engine from a teardown as well as other aircraft damage associated with total gear collapse.
N97LL - Right ground loop, left wing damage, no gear collapse, no engine/prop damage
N70DD - Fuel exhaustion
N82XX - Left Ground loop, right wing damage, right main gear collapse, no mention of engine/prop damage
N711XC - Left Ground loop, right wing and aileron damage, no gear collapse, no engine/prop damage
N53XC - Right Ground loop, left wing and aileron damage, no gear collapse, no engine/prop damage
N533AL - Left Ground loop, right aileron and empennage damage, right main gear collapse, no engine/prop damage
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
What type of landing gear does not collapse when stressed beyond normal operating limits? It is normal to expect a failure of anything when stressed beyond normal operating limits.
40m
SPONSOR
Shoreham, VT
"Apparently you lost interest and buried the headline in the review of the CC19 NTSB Accident reports. Could it be because thus far the NTSB reports underscores the point I was trying to make in all the dialog above? So here is the summary of the 6 reported XCub NTSB accidents. As we know there were probably more not reported to NTSB."
Steve, shame on you! How could you put your livelihood ahead of this critical topic?
You like many others here may on occasion offer an opinion but more times than not you take time out of your work day to educated guys like me for free and for that I thank you! Now let's get focused on the gear thing.
Steve, shame on you! How could you put your livelihood ahead of this critical topic?
You like many others here may on occasion offer an opinion but more times than not you take time out of your work day to educated guys like me for free and for that I thank you! Now let's get focused on the gear thing.
turbopilot
Registered User
Asked and answered repeatedly in this thread. Of course everything will break at some point but we are talking about catastrophic failure versus limited failure. FAIL SAFE FAILURE.
So far with the XCub experience, ground loop induced partial gear collapse would appear to save the cost of replacing a $12,500 composite prop and an engine tear down.
So back to my point and the subject of the this thread. If you have a legacy cub gear system there are two paths to a better landing gear system that is more robust. Sell your airplane and buy a $500k XCub. Or covert your legacy cub gear to a stronger gear, more likely to "fail safe" than totally fail.
One Hartzell Trailblazer composite prop costs $12,500 (found on every FX-3 and XCub). Totally converting a legacy cub gear system to the Beringer ALG costs $10,600. Do the math. So far it looks the odds of a destructive ground loop that in NTSB reportable (we know there are more) is around 12% in the FX-3 and XCub fleet. Overtime that number will grow as fleet time rises.
turbopilot
Registered User
That door swings both ways. Data rules.
I just thought of a solution for this whole entire problem! With every new purchase of any CubCrafters aircraft, you receive a “complimentary” (free) clapped-out legacy 65hp J-3 cub. Do with it what you like......give it to the kid/neighbor, shoot it, part it out, but hopefully fly it. After you’ve run it out of fuel, put it on its nose, ground looped it and tore the legacy gear off it you’ll be ready to push your pristine Carbon Cub out of the hangar and appreciate it a little more.
So now, the new price of an FX3 just went from roughly 330k to 348-355k depending on how many silver patches are on the “complimentary” cub.
Can you believe it, in the time it took for one bowel movement, I solved the entire problem. You guys are overthinking this....really!
So now, the new price of an FX3 just went from roughly 330k to 348-355k depending on how many silver patches are on the “complimentary” cub.
Can you believe it, in the time it took for one bowel movement, I solved the entire problem. You guys are overthinking this....really!
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turbopilot
Registered User
We have been around this merry go round several times in this thread. In 2017 CubCrafters (largest manufacturer of legacy cub gear aircraft) made a clear and unequivocal statement about the legacy cub gear system. In my opinion they got it right and it was a bold move. Then they introduced a product to solve the problem. If you don't agree with the position, take it up with CubCrafters. I am just the messenger. I took their advice and did what I could do on my 2014 legacy gear SS by exchanging the gear system.
Right?? My favorite movie is Secondhand Lions. There’s a scene in which Robert Duval says “hell kid, just because somethings not true doesn’t mean you can’t believe it.” We can all believe and buy what we want!
And Turbo, you don’t owe anyone an explanation for what you bought and why, nor need to defend that position here or elsewhere. Theres just a bunch of us on here that have always flown legacy gear, never had a problem and wonder about this stuff when it comes up. These type threads, even when they get a little contentious are good for all of us.
And Turbo, you don’t owe anyone an explanation for what you bought and why, nor need to defend that position here or elsewhere. Theres just a bunch of us on here that have always flown legacy gear, never had a problem and wonder about this stuff when it comes up. These type threads, even when they get a little contentious are good for all of us.
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mike mcs repair
Registered User
chugiak AK
Fair comparison to the two idiots in this threads thinking. To bad they don’t just learn how to land.
Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app
Attachments
Red Flag Knock it Off...
Okay folks, this thread is out of control. There are a lot of biases going on here and I don't agree with everything I'm reading and you probably don't either, that's fine. Let me offer my opinion on the matter to this point from my military career as an aviator and over 30 years blah blah blah.
NTSB reports are not accident reports. We don't know the full story and not one person here can or should draw any conclusions from the information read. While I have never been on an accident board nor was I a safety officer in the Air Force I'm sure some of you here have been and feel free to offer your inputs on accident reviews.
Some here have offered PIC time is what's important. NO IT'S NOT. A pilot can have thousand of hours of PIC time or even time in type yet not have flown in the last X days or even the last year. They strap on their mighty cub and their cross check is not there, they fail to fly in conditions that are conducive to their recency, i.e. maybe they chose a high crosswinds day to fly and shouldn't. We've all been rusty, I know what it felt like flying A-10's after taking 30 days leave and being IFR in S. Korea in the clouds from gear up to gear down. Not a pleasant feeling. Did the pilot have a good nights sleep? Is the pilot having personal issues or any stressors. Have they been taking medication to combat a cold? So many human factors to list here, none of which we are privy to.
Did the pilot attempt to fly beyond the published conditions. I've seen enough YouTube videos of pilots flying cubs outside the published crosswind limits. Great example...NOT!
I recently completely my TW checkout and the first day the hurricane had just passed by (at a distance) but we had crazy winds. I asked the instructor if it was good enough to fly, he shook his hand waving it back and forth in the so-so way. We flew, it was fine, thankfully all grass strip work. I videod a J3 landing before it was my time to fly as I was sure it would ground loop in what was probably 15 kt winds (straight windsock) but it didn't, thankfully.
Many aircraft out there have peculiar landing characteristics. The T-38 was a bitch to learn to land with it's tiny wings. Imagine the F-104. P-51 I'm sure as well as the F4U Corsair have some interesting landing characteristics. This is what training is for.
The FX3 has a CS prop and there is word about the flap design blanking the tail at a point in the landing phase. You have to train for and learn these peculiarities and learn to fly the plane you're flying safely.
Big wheels little wheels shocks whatever, they have their purpose but in no way replace the FLYING of the aircraft properly. I loved flying the A-10 fast around the final turn, probably 20 kts over the actual speed. 145'ish felt unsafe especially with turbines slow to spool up (hence why it has speed brakes out in the final turn). You can't do that in these airplanes, adding kts for mom, pop, the kids, and dog. You have to set these down on speed and aligned with the runway to avoid sideloads. I'm in no position to be instructing but that's what I've learned, it's not rocket science.
Each system has pro's and con's, I'm not completely sold on the Beringer design and that's why I bought TK1. Heck, I'd be fine with the stock bungees as again this is about flying your airplane properly. It's Beringer's problem to market and prove their product. Right now from all I've discussed with but one they are not on board with Beringer landing gear. Yes to their wheels and brakes, but not shocks.
No one will sell me on the NTSB data, it does not tell the real story like accident reports and full investigations do. There are a lot of factors involved here much of which we don't know about. Faulty shock designs are a factor in some cases, pilot error in most cases.
Banter all you want, sell your choice all you want, for anyone in the market such as I have been with my FX3 coming next May/June do your research.
Okay folks, this thread is out of control. There are a lot of biases going on here and I don't agree with everything I'm reading and you probably don't either, that's fine. Let me offer my opinion on the matter to this point from my military career as an aviator and over 30 years blah blah blah.
NTSB reports are not accident reports. We don't know the full story and not one person here can or should draw any conclusions from the information read. While I have never been on an accident board nor was I a safety officer in the Air Force I'm sure some of you here have been and feel free to offer your inputs on accident reviews.
Some here have offered PIC time is what's important. NO IT'S NOT. A pilot can have thousand of hours of PIC time or even time in type yet not have flown in the last X days or even the last year. They strap on their mighty cub and their cross check is not there, they fail to fly in conditions that are conducive to their recency, i.e. maybe they chose a high crosswinds day to fly and shouldn't. We've all been rusty, I know what it felt like flying A-10's after taking 30 days leave and being IFR in S. Korea in the clouds from gear up to gear down. Not a pleasant feeling. Did the pilot have a good nights sleep? Is the pilot having personal issues or any stressors. Have they been taking medication to combat a cold? So many human factors to list here, none of which we are privy to.
Did the pilot attempt to fly beyond the published conditions. I've seen enough YouTube videos of pilots flying cubs outside the published crosswind limits. Great example...NOT!
I recently completely my TW checkout and the first day the hurricane had just passed by (at a distance) but we had crazy winds. I asked the instructor if it was good enough to fly, he shook his hand waving it back and forth in the so-so way. We flew, it was fine, thankfully all grass strip work. I videod a J3 landing before it was my time to fly as I was sure it would ground loop in what was probably 15 kt winds (straight windsock) but it didn't, thankfully.
Many aircraft out there have peculiar landing characteristics. The T-38 was a bitch to learn to land with it's tiny wings. Imagine the F-104. P-51 I'm sure as well as the F4U Corsair have some interesting landing characteristics. This is what training is for.
The FX3 has a CS prop and there is word about the flap design blanking the tail at a point in the landing phase. You have to train for and learn these peculiarities and learn to fly the plane you're flying safely.
Big wheels little wheels shocks whatever, they have their purpose but in no way replace the FLYING of the aircraft properly. I loved flying the A-10 fast around the final turn, probably 20 kts over the actual speed. 145'ish felt unsafe especially with turbines slow to spool up (hence why it has speed brakes out in the final turn). You can't do that in these airplanes, adding kts for mom, pop, the kids, and dog. You have to set these down on speed and aligned with the runway to avoid sideloads. I'm in no position to be instructing but that's what I've learned, it's not rocket science.
Each system has pro's and con's, I'm not completely sold on the Beringer design and that's why I bought TK1. Heck, I'd be fine with the stock bungees as again this is about flying your airplane properly. It's Beringer's problem to market and prove their product. Right now from all I've discussed with but one they are not on board with Beringer landing gear. Yes to their wheels and brakes, but not shocks.
No one will sell me on the NTSB data, it does not tell the real story like accident reports and full investigations do. There are a lot of factors involved here much of which we don't know about. Faulty shock designs are a factor in some cases, pilot error in most cases.
Banter all you want, sell your choice all you want, for anyone in the market such as I have been with my FX3 coming next May/June do your research.
turbopilot
Registered User
It is all we have. Otherwise we are left with anecdotal one off stories by mechanics and owners.
By the way I served on 5 Air Force Aircraft Accident Investigation Boards (T33, F4 (times 2), A7 and F111) and participated in smoking hole initial investigations in many other Air Force accidents and I often stay in Holiday Inns. I know the drill.
And I will say it one more time for all the folks who want to argue based on marginal information. The largest manufacturer of legacy cub landing gear has taken a position. If you think that position was solely based on the desire to leverage XCub sales, then that is about all that can be said. The data suggests their position is spot on.
@hawgdrvr, you are about to take delivery of an airplane with legacy cub gear system, that the manufacture has clearly stated has some problems. Fancy high priced shock absorbers will do nothing to change that problem and may actually make it worse. Of course they would like to convert your position from an FX-3 to an XCub, much more margin. But it appears, based on the data, that they are on solid ground in taking the position. Data rules.
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
This is interesting, here we have two highly experienced military aviators telling the civilians, some of whom have in excess of 60 years of experience in all types and sizes of airplanes what is best for their airplanes. Not all the military aviators are so opinionated.
RaisedByWolves
FRIEND
Tx
Crash Jr.
Registered User
Anchorage, AK
This thread sure strayed far from Beringer vs ACME. Now it's looking like Cub gear vs spring gear.
I'd still like to see how the Beringer gear fails under a sideloaded condition. Their axles are aluminum which has been shown to bend on Cessnas under sideloads as well as the gear itself attaches to the stock cabane vee and even further uses that cabane partially in a compression load state where it was meant to be loaded in tension. Unfortunately we do not have any data to show the Beringer gear would survive a ground loop of the type that is being discussed. My guess would be that the load is transferred up the gear and collapses the cabane vee causing the gear legs to tuck. Maybe not as bad as stock landing gear but it's still a failure.
Just postulation/stirring the pot. I'd like to see what the real thoughts are behind the idea that Beringer's ALG would not collapse in a sideload where stock gear would fail. So far it has only been shown that stock -18 landing gear would fail but there has been no evidence to show that Beringer gear would NOT fail under the same circumstances.
I'd still like to see how the Beringer gear fails under a sideloaded condition. Their axles are aluminum which has been shown to bend on Cessnas under sideloads as well as the gear itself attaches to the stock cabane vee and even further uses that cabane partially in a compression load state where it was meant to be loaded in tension. Unfortunately we do not have any data to show the Beringer gear would survive a ground loop of the type that is being discussed. My guess would be that the load is transferred up the gear and collapses the cabane vee causing the gear legs to tuck. Maybe not as bad as stock landing gear but it's still a failure.
Just postulation/stirring the pot. I'd like to see what the real thoughts are behind the idea that Beringer's ALG would not collapse in a sideload where stock gear would fail. So far it has only been shown that stock -18 landing gear would fail but there has been no evidence to show that Beringer gear would NOT fail under the same circumstances.
turbopilot
Registered User
Good questions. There just are not enough Beringer ALG in the cub community to draw any conclusions. I have never seen a cub with Beringer ALG after a ground loop. I am trying to avoid that data point if I can.
As to side loading failure, until last year the Beringer ALG system for the cub included two extra struts from the V cabane back to the aft gear attach. This was obviously done to stabilize the V cabane during side loading. These struts have now been deleted by Beringer in currently shipping gear sets. I talked to an engineer at Beringer about this change. He said during the process of obtaining the STC for the SuperCub it was determined that this strut was structurally not necessary. They did leave the very beefy V cabane doubler.
Here is an image of the aft V cabane struts:
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aeroaddict
MEMBER
Boise ID area
Dang, that is one clean plane in the pic. Guess I better get to work on cleaning mine.
Good questions. There just are not enough Beringer ALG in the cub community to draw any conclusions. I have never seen a cub with Beringer ALG after a ground loop. I am trying to avoid that data point if I can.
As to side loading failure, until last year the Beringer ALG system for the cub included two extra struts from the V cabane back to the aft gear attach. This was obviously done to stabilize the V cabane during side loading. These struts have now been deleted by Beringer in currently shipping gear sets. I talked to an engineer at Beringer about this change. He said during the process of obtaining the STC for the SuperCub it was determined that this strut was structurally not necessary. They did leave the very beefy V cabane doubler.
Here is an image of the aft V cabane struts:
i like the brake line holder, who makes them like that?
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turbopilot
Registered User
Cable Clips
Peel off the cheap sticky stuff than comes with clips. The use 3M VHB tape instead.
3M VHB Heavy Duty Mounting Tape
turbopilot
Registered User
Getting it cleaned up. It will be for sale in December or January.
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aeroaddict
MEMBER
Boise ID area
Selling it because of the gear? 
Just kidding, no flaming please.
Just kidding, no flaming please.
