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Wide-body Sportsman 2+2 build

Keep in mind what structural loads would be altered if the fuselage width were changed. Primarily it would be the column strength of the cross tubes where the wings attach and the tensile strength of the cross tube where the wing struts attach. All others are just basically fillers with respect to changing the fuselage width.

What alloys are used in the original 2+2 or PA-14 fuselage? 1025? Just changing to 4130 would answer your questions. Otherwise just increase the wall thickness of the pertinent tubes.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, most builders I've seen (for pa-style aircraft) tend to put an extra cross-brace up there anyway. I did it in the mid-90s, when I built the first fuselage. It was 1" x 0.049" back then as I recall, which is the same size as the other tubes up there. I would need to confirm that though--I don't have the plans right in front of me.

As to strengthening the structure up there, it would be easy enough to do...yes. And Solidworks would allow you to simulate the deflection(s) for a given load(s), and with a couple of mouse clicks you can simply change the weldment profile to be a different diameter and/or wall thickness...and then just re-run the simulation to check on the stresses and deflections. So it's a true apples-to-apples type of comparison. I'm working on reacquainting myself with Solidworks Simulation now, as I haven't used the simulation aspect in a couple of years. And then of course I'll need to create an accurate model--but that's only a few hours worth of work. So it's definitely something that would not be terribly difficult to do.

EDIT: Forgot to address your materials question. To my knowledge (as the pa-14 aircraft were built 1947-1949), they were built with 1025 mild steel tubing. This is the same as the pa-18 were built, per the original drawings (and now the Northland drawings). So going to 4130 would offer a significant increase in yield and ultimate tensile strength, without even changing a single diameter or wall thickness. For instance some quick math shows me that the yield strength of 4130 is nearly 25% greater than 1025 steel; and the ultimate tensile strength differential is even a bit higher yet.
 
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All I did for the W&B calculation was to change the arm of the tail weight using the same weight of an airplane in my computer. This simulated a longer fuselage.

I am a long time EAA member #7477 and did try the Solidworks. I've also in the past tried other programs. It's just not something I'm able to master. I bought my first computer back in the early 90s with the idea of using it for drafting purposes. All I managed were a few simple drawings. I guess I just don't have the patience for something which is just electrons out of sight until it appears on the screen in a different pattern than what I anticipated.

LOL!

Well, that's fair enough. If you ever want to take another whack at it though, I can certainly help you out.

Thanks for all your input.
 
As an FYI, I've reached out to Kirk Ellis via their FB page there at his lodge, and inquired as to whether or not he would be amenable to giving me an hour of his time at his normal shop rate. I'd gladly pay him to pick his brain on just the kinds of questions/issues we've been discussing here. Not sure what he'll say, but it can't hurt to ask...

Thanks again to everyone who has given input and opinions here. There are no stupid questions on this, and it's good to consider all angles of such a project *before* cutting tubing...
 
Even with the help of computer programs you are still guessing that the changes you make will result in a better airplane.

Moreover, that you have never, ever even seen or flown in a 2x2 or a PA14 makes your targeted modifications wholly unfounded. It’s an absurd approach; Almost Trumpian. (Ok, ok—that’s just a joke. Put your guns away)

Again, surely you are just teasing us.
 
Well, 39.5" is 39.5"...right? I mean, how much experience do you need in a pa-14 to know that having a width that's less than C-172 might not be conducive to an enjoyable experience? I've spent quite a bit of time in pa-22, and that's 40"...which still wasn't what I would call a roomy experience. And the later models have a nice seat slide mechanism, which did help somewhat.

Not sure how many aircraft you've flown in your day, but I've flown enough to know what "tight" is in a cockpit. Sliding seats only go so far. But if you'll point me to someone with a pa-14 within a couple hundred miles of me, I'll go sit in their aircraft if it will make you happy... ;-)

So with all due respect, let's just say I don't concur with your "wholly unfounded" argument. Also, please tell me why it's an absurd approach? Were I to build one to the plans, and then come back here and complain it was too narrow, I'd be getting flack from a bunch of people saying "well you knew how wide it was when you started--why didn't you make it wider?!?"
 
Just my two cents…you will be fine as described…I’ve only done one experimental and a few certified planes…my experimental cub is based of the 2+2 plans…and is widened close to 6” in he front seat area…0-320 -160+hp, flaps, slats, jackscrew, 35” BW, pod x-brace and more. Originally had two 170 seats in front, I didn’t like flying from the side, so now has one centered PA18 seat. It’s a great performer, solid and can haul a load. As I said, I think from experience you’ll be fine…but what do I know…
 
Yeah, but that's if you want to build a Supercub-type aircraft...right? Do you think you need to mess with the AOI for a pa-14 replica? I can see squaring off the tail a bit to gain a (relatively free) increase in surface area back there, and I can certainly see using stock pa-18 gear, and a Javron wing. But if a person decided to start messing with the AOI of the wing and also started to beef-up the fuselage under the floor like was done in this 4-place SC, then he might just as well build a 4-place SC. Problem with that though is where do you get the plans? Does Kirk sell them for people to do an EAB with? I guess it wouldn't hurt to call him to inquire, but my impression was that the plans weren't available--hence the choice of going with the 2+2 if you wanted to build a 4-place. If a guy wanted to buy one, then just get Jay's 4-place SC fuselage and build one of his aircraft. However I'd like to build something.

If I'm not careful Denny, you're going to have me in a Javron wide-body pa-18 replica. :lol:

TB

Come to the Dark Side of the force, Come to the Dark Side!!:wink: The 4 place cub is a STC Check with Gabe at Airframes it should come with drawings. If you can do solid works just take the 2x2 plans and widen it out. Stick in seaplane doors for easy in and out and a big baggage in the back like Kirk did that is a easy way to help with the W&B, Lots of ways to skin the cat . Stock AOI will work fine, HOWEVER, I have never heard of anybody that did not like more view over the nose in flight and on final. I am keeping my gear, motor mount, and wing attachments stock so I can find a jig if it gets bent. I am using Jays wing attachment fittings and custom motor mount to change the AOI/thrustline. Lowered the upper rear of the stabilizer on the fuselage to make the angles work (thanks Dan Dufalut for that advice). If you are going to be building a one off frame you can build any angles you want into it because you won't have a jig to help you anyway. Don't lower the rear wing fitting, it puts the cables in the hair of the back seat passenger my buddy found this out with his SQ and the boss was not happy! For better or worse I am lucky to have seen a lot of rebuilds and Experimental mods being done up here, Kirk's hanger is at the end of our runway, Airframes used to be out the front of my hanger, My IA has done the rigging on at least 1/2 of all the winning STOL planes up here. Everyone is always willing to share the little tricks that make it work, the downside is making just "one more change" is like candy to a baby! Just a lolly pop to tempt you to the dark side is a pic of my door. The tape will be the size of the door (middle tube will go away)
DENNY
 

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Just my two cents…you will be fine as described…I’ve only done one experimental and a few certified planes…my experimental cub is based of the 2+2 plans…and is widened close to 6” in he front seat area…0-320 -160+hp, flaps, slats, jackscrew, 35” BW, pod x-brace and more. Originally had two 170 seats in front, I didn’t like flying from the side, so now has one centered PA18 seat. It’s a great performer, solid and can haul a load. As I said, I think from experience you’ll be fine…but what do I know…

Thank you. I think I'll be fine as well--although I hadn't plan to go quite that wide. But seeing as how this thing was originally engineered with 1025 mild steel tubing and we're now using 4130 chrome-moly (with about 1.25x the yield strength as 1025), I think there should be quite a safety margin already built-in. Add the X-brace across the top that everyone does, and you're even better off.

What wings did you put on it? Finally, did you add any additional bracing to the diamond pattern in the belly, in the area of the strut and gear fittings? Those are pretty heavy tubes there to start with--and I'm quite interested to see what Piper used originally, when the pa-14 drawings arrive from Cub Club.

Thanks again for your post.
 
Come to the Dark Side of the force, Come to the Dark Side!!:wink: The 4 place cub is a STC Check with Gabe at Airframes it should come with drawings. If you can do solid works just take the 2x2 plans and widen it out. Stick in seaplane doors for easy in and out and a big baggage in the back like Kirk did that is a easy way to help with the W&B, Lots of ways to skin the cat . Stock AOI will work fine, HOWEVER, I have never heard of anybody that did not like more view over the nose in flight and on final. I am keeping my gear, motor mount, and wing attachments stock so I can find a jig if it gets bent. I am using Jays wing attachment fittings and custom motor mount to change the AOI/thrustline. Lowered the upper rear of the stabilizer on the fuselage to make the angles work (thanks Dan Dufalut for that advice). If you are going to be building a one off frame you can build any angles you want into it because you won't have a jig to help you anyway. Don't lower the rear wing fitting, it puts the cables in the hair of the back seat passenger my buddy found this out with his SQ and the boss was not happy! For better or worse I am lucky to have seen a lot of rebuilds and Experimental mods being done up here, Kirk's hanger is at the end of our runway, Airframes used to be out the front of my hanger, My IA has done the rigging on at least 1/2 of all the winning STOL planes up here. Everyone is always willing to share the little tricks that make it work, the downside is making just "one more change" is like candy to a baby! Just a lolly pop to tempt you to the dark side is a pic of my door. The tape will be the size of the door (middle tube will go away)
DENNY

Thank you very much Denny--I certainly agree with much of what you said. Some of it I haven't studied yet so I can't agree or disagree. I will definitely put it into Solidworks though--I'm already working on it.

As to Kirk: I'm not sure whether or not he'd sell me an hour of his time to pick his brain a little bit on specs (tube size/thickness recommendations, AOI stuff, etc), but I'd surely pay him for it. From what I understand he's flown it all up there: pa-14, pa-18 included. And of course he's Mr. 4-place Super Cub, so he seems to be the perfect guy to ask about this. We'll see if he answers my inquiry on their FB page.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
EDIT: Almost forgot -- you mentioned that you wished you knew Solidworks. Well if you are an EAA member, I believe you can still get an educational license included with your membership. You have to uninstall and reinstall a new version each year, but that's relatively trivial. There are excellent learning resources for free on YouTube though (as well as paid resources in other places also), so for EAA members the tool(s) is readily available.

Don't want to derail, but EAA discontinued the Solidworks benefit. Now you are left with "3DEXPERIENCE SOLIDWORKS for Makers" at a discounted subscription. From what I've seen, it won't be as useful as old Solidworks.
 
Don't want to derail, but EAA discontinued the Solidworks benefit. Now you are left with "3DEXPERIENCE SOLIDWORKS for Makers" at a discounted subscription. From what I've seen, it won't be as useful as old Solidworks.

BUMMER!!! I have a commercial license for it, purchased in 2015. But I did use the EAA-provided "educational" license for a month or two, while learning it back then. That's terrible news though, because Solidworks (even the educational version) is an incredible tool. It costs me about $1500/yr to maintain the license, but I'm afraid to let it lapse considering that they're no longer letting people buy the perpetual license, and I use it for planning out pretty much everything I build...aviation-related or not.
 
From what I've seen, it won't be as useful as old Solidworks.
Could you expound on that a little, please? I've been considering giving it a try, and one question I haven't seen answered involves the ability (or lack thereof) to save a drawing locally and then to share it. It sounds like maybe drawings can only be shared with other 3dexperience users. For me, that wouldn't be very useful if it's true.
 
Could you expound on that a little, please? I've been considering giving it a try, and one question I haven't seen answered involves the ability (or lack thereof) to save a drawing locally and then to share it. It sounds like maybe drawings can only be shared with other 3dexperience users. For me, that wouldn't be very useful if it's true.

What you said is correct as I read the EAA forums. Saves in the cloud. Only other 3d users can access. I was just starting to get a feel for it 9 months ago. Not going that route now.
 
Could you expound on that a little, please? I've been considering giving it a try, and one question I haven't seen answered involves the ability (or lack thereof) to save a drawing locally and then to share it. It sounds like maybe drawings can only be shared with other 3dexperience users. For me, that wouldn't be very useful if it's true.

Warning: Lengthy answer forthcoming!

You didn't ask me the question, and I've never used the 3dexperience version of Solidworks, but I went and looked at the video I've linked below. It looks REALLY nice! This is basically Dassault's answer to Fusion 360, which is the browser-based, cloud storage tool that is a substitute for their full-blown Inventer application. I wondered how long it would take before the Solidworks folks made the leap into that realm as well--and this is it. Here are a few observations from my experience using the traditional (ie; desktop) Solidworks application over the past 7 years or so, and my limited experience in using Fusion 360:

1) Fusion 360 was soundly criticized for being cloud-based storage a few years ago (well, about 5-6 now), when I was looking at it. I had been using SW for 1-2 years at that time, so I wanted to see what all my CNC friends were ranting and raving about. I even went and attended a weekend-long course on Fusion 360, and its CAM plugin. I was VERY impressed. Since then I've continued using Solidworks, but wouldn't hesitate to go to Fusion 360, were I to ever give up the SW license.

2) Installation of Solidworks on a desktop, especially when there are other versions present, is a huge PITA. You definitely need to know something about hardware if you have any SW-related performance problems--because the first thing your VAR agent will ask you to do is to print out a list of your machine specs, and send it to them. Although I used to practice medicine, I've now retired from that and write software...and build my own computer systems. I can tell you that SW is quite sensitive to various hardware aspects of your machine--the GPU being as important as anything. It's also a bit picky about RAM. Then, if you do upgrades each year as new versions are released, you can upgrade yourself into a non-working (older) version.

For example, just last week I had to install SW 2018 because that's the version I had their Simulation product licensed for. But as I typically don't use Simulation, and given that it costs me another $500/yr, I stopped paying to update it, but I can still go back and use SW 2018 Professional with Simulation Standard. So that's what I did last week--only because I had updated to SW 2022, it broke the Microsoft VBA requirement (Visual Basic for Applications) for the 2018 version. So I had to uninstall ALL versions of Solidworks, do some convoluted procedure to pry VBA 7.3 out of Windows 10, and then reinstall SW 2018 so that it could install version 7.1 of the VBA which is what was in use back then. It took 2-3 hours to work through all that crap.

As I said--I've never used it, but from what I can tell all those types of issues should be gone with this 3dexperience version. It seems that they've greatly simplified the installation and maintenance processes for the "casual" user of Solidworks, while maintaining the core features of the desktop version. Simply put, I'd like to try it, but if it's half as good as their video makes it out to be, I think you'd be very happy with it. I can definitely see why they've done it.

My Fusion 360 friends tell me that the cloud-based file storage/sharing thing is really pretty convenient, as you can share the files pretty easily. Also, with the desktop Solidworks, if you don't do a pack-and-go type of operation, then any parts you are referencing from a library outside of your assembly, don't always get sent to whoever you're sending your files to. In other words, there's an extra step or two that you need to follow to make sure that your design partner(s) gets all the same files you're using on your local machine. By the looks of it, this 3dexperience thing is supposed to fix that sort of thing? If so, that would be awesome.

Anyway, it might well be worth giving this 3dexperience thing a shot.


 
Just did a little review of the hardware requirements for 3dexperiece (3ds, as they call it). Sadly it appears as though it is only supported on Windows. With Fusion 360 you could free yourself of the burden of a brain-dead OS and use it on a Mac. OK, it wasn't Linux...but it wasn't Windows either. The only reason I still maintain a Windows machine(s), is to run Solidworks. That's it. I was hoping to see that they were supporting other operating systems now, but that doesn't appear to be the case judging by what I'm seeing here.

That's unfortunate.
 
Working on the download / installation of 3D Experience, it is a major PAIN. Clumsy, ackward and arcane. Reminds me of software installation processes from 30 years ago. NOT HAPPY so far.
 
Well, that part is similar to its desktop brother at least.

EDIT: If you have never installed SW before and need to talk through it, ping me and i'll give you my cell number Gordon.
 
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Thanks - it's FINALLY downloading, after an array of behind the scenes, non-monitorable preparatory downloads and operations there were hard to keep track of. It's a truly challenging process. One thinks all the remedial stuff is done, restarts the process and it says "I can't cuz I'm already doing it", when 15 minutes ago it said "I can't do this until you . . . . " And of course that's after they have your money. Ridiculous. I hope it's worth it!
 
LOL! That's worse than the desktop version! If you don't have another version of SW installed, the initial installation is usually a pretty straightforward process. It's not until you try to install an additional version (like a newer one) on the same system that there's an issue...especially when there has been a dependency change, like I ran into last week with Microsoft VBA.
 
Well, it seems to be working now. One thing I did learn so far is that it is possible to save a drawing to the local computer. But I haven't yet tried emailing to a "conventional" Solidworks user to see if it would open properly for him.

DraftSight, a "regular" CAD program, also from Dassault, seems somewhat more intuitive, though with fewer features. It's $200/year, as compared to $50 for the EAA version of the online version of Solidworks. It has a 30 day free trial option.
 
Well, it seems to be working now. One thing I did learn so far is that it is possible to save a drawing to the local computer. But I haven't yet tried emailing to a "conventional" Solidworks user to see if it would open properly for him.

DraftSight, a "regular" CAD program, also from Dassault, seems somewhat more intuitive, though with fewer features. It's $200/year, as compared to $50 for the EAA version of the online version of Solidworks. It has a 30 day free trial option.

Never heard of DraftSight, so I'll have to find a YouTube demo video for that. If you want to email me a model you've created with 3ds though, I'll try it. I only have SW2018 installed on this machine right now, but I think I can (re)install SW2022 if need be. Hopefully it won't screw up the whole Microsoft VBA requirement--I'd have to research that first. But I also have a laptop I spec'd out for SW use, and could install SW2022 on that too.

tcbetka@hotmail.com
 
Lots of long posts here but I’ll give a couple of opinions too, based on my experience flying the model 5 and the Bearhawk Patrol, respectively 100 and maybe 150 hrs each.

Yes lead times are long. But stick building is long. There are 30 yr old fabricators that are working 40 hrs a week stick building and taking over a year. The reality is stick building is, for the majority, a 5-10 year build.
Kits are about 2 years out. Maybe a touch less. Add 1.5-2 years at an easy pace if you’re not also working 40 hrs at another job, and you’ve got a finished flying airplane. Go have fun.

Big airplanes need big engines. There are plenty of disappointment pilots with big airplanes being pulled around with o-360’s. If you want a 4 place airplane, build one with the power it likes, and fly it slower to save your fuel. When I fly a model 5 at 80 mph in formation with a bunch of little cubs, I burned 5 gal/hr. Max burned at cruise for my wallet was 13.6 for a long haul, at 135 mph with up to 6 seats. But the width of speed and fuel burn capability is what makes it work.

I am building a patrol because it’s the closest thing to a perfect airplane for my mission, right now. If I had the funds or a family that flew, I’d own a model 5 in a heartbeat. I’d configure it as a 4 place with room to carry the kitchen sink, and ideally put it on Amphibs as it would be awesome in that role. But alas, I’m just a poor farmboy and one airplane is all I get. :)

Parting note… one advantage of a Bearhawk kit is you get to be more involved in building it then other kits, so lots of room to personalize it. (Although wings are 75% complete and fuselage is fully welded). This is a negative to those prefer to assemble only, but it’s what it is.

Pb


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

Just talked to Bob (Barrows) and Mark (Goldberg) yesterday, actually. The BH model 5 is a very attractive option, to be sure--and it wouldn't take any re-engineering on my part to do it. It's a 44.5" wide cabin, and I think Bob said it was either 18" or 24" longer than the 4-place Bearhawk is. He said an O-540 would be enough engine. I presume he meant a 250hp version...not a 235hp.

As for kit availability, Mark told me that a FULL kit (fuselage, wings, empennage...the whole enchilada) would take until at least the end of 2023, if not later. He said he just told another fellow that a day or two ago, and it sounded like there was a possible order there--so I'd have to think this would push back any order I'd place. However Mark said that he could get me a quick-build wing kit (including wing struts) in only 6-12 months. That's much better, as I could have the fuselage mostly built by then I'm sure. It really doesn't take all that much time to build the tubing structure--I built a complete set of tail feathers, landing gear legs and the fuselage for a Wag Aero 2+2 in about one year...while finishing up Medical School. I could build the same parts for a BH model 5 in the same amount of time.

That said, I want to call Jay up at Javron, and inquire as to how long his assembled wings are taking. The BH 5 is a LOT of aircraft, and I'm not sure I need that much for the wife, me, and a couple of dogs. I still think we'd be very happy with a wider-body pa-14 replica with a set of Jay's pa-12 wings to go to 2200 pounds gross, and an O-360 hanging up front.
 
You just described the Bearhawk Bravo....or maybe even the Bearhawk Companion.

Not sure I follow you. I didn't say the model 5 was 2200 lbs GW though--but rather I would be OK with 2+2 (ie; pa-14 replica) that was 2200lbs gross weight. The model 5 has a GW of 3000 pounds. Not sure the wife and I need that much aircraft to get some pancakes. Might be fun though--especially if we eat a LOT of them.
 
I deleted my post right after I posted it, but you caught me....

What I meant to communicate is the Companion would be good for "Pancakes with the Wife, me, and a couple of dogs" (the Five is a station wagon to Alaska with a cast iron dutch oven and fire wood.) I was unsure of your width requirement, so I just deleted and checked. The Companion will have a 42" cabin width. That 2 seat Companion might have a larger useful load than a C-182. Around 900 pounds I would guess.
 
Ah, lol...

I don't know what the legroom is in that thing...or how much room there is in the baggage area for a couple dogs, We sort of want a 4-place though I think, just to be able to carry three people from time to time if need be. I also like to ice fish as well, so having a bigger baggage area would be nice.

The BH model 5 really is an attractive proposition. Your dogs can be Shetland Ponies and still fit in that thing.
 
I’m a fan of the 5, but I’ll give you some mud for the water.

Companion is essentially the 4 place (Model B) without the rear seats, and the baggage bulkhead is one station forward.
The room in the back of a Companion is huge for a 2 seater. It’s really an ideal 3 seater plus bags, dogs or cargo. (It would also be quite a unique super wide body tandem aircraft, super sized for larger Americans, although no one has modified it towards this yet)

The Patrol and the Model 5 are my favourites, but like everything, each model, brand, and design has its place in the market. Fitting your own mission is the goal.

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I’m a fan of the 5, but I’ll give you some mud for the water.

Companion is essentially the 4 place (Model B) without the rear seats, and the baggage bulkhead is one station forward.
The room in the back of a Companion is huge for a 2 seater. It’s really an ideal 3 seater plus bags, dogs or cargo. (It would also be quite a unique super wide body tandem aircraft, super sized for larger Americans, although no one has modified it towards this yet)

The Patrol and the Model 5 are my favourites, but like everything, each model, brand, and design has its place in the market. Fitting your own mission is the goal.

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Holy crap--is that the Companion?!? That's a huge aft cabin! I'd better go do some more research me thinks...
 
Yes - basically the 4 place without backseats, so that’s the baggage area.

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Doesn’t show the inside but here’s the first start of the first Companion built.

https://youtu.be/9v8tq81lXqs



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