Panel Help- AV-30? Other? Nothing?

First of all- I'm a complete newbie.

I recently purchased what I think is a very nice first plane- a 1950 PA-18.

I have an open spot on my panel- and I'm considering putting an AV-30C in there.

My thought is:
1. I am done with training and need to do my PPL checkride and I can't find a DPE who will do it without an attitude indicator/heading indicator even though I'm told it's not legally required. (Tried for many many months)
2. It would make my plane safer.

I'm not spending $2k for a checkride is worth it in and of itself- but long term benefits and additional safety mean it may make sense.

The panel would need punched- which scares me a bit. Also- currently there is no static system- just open static ports on installed instruments- not sure if that matters much for install complication.

Talk me into it?

Talk me out of it?

Talk me into installing something else instead? On a plane in the future I think I would want an engine monitor- but that seems like far too big of a project right now.

Here is a panel pic today- airpath compass was replaced with SIRS

wow, that’s a nice panel. I don’t know your mission, but if it were mine, i would not change it now. find another plane to do your check ride in. i’m not a CFI, but i think you need some hood time to get your PPL. how did you accomplish that prior to the checkride?

given that you are a new pilot and a new owner, i would try to avoid any changes to the plane until you get some time in it. these things will eat your wallet alive if you let them. i usually tell new owners of anything to fly it as is for a bit before you decide on upgrades. there’s usually enough airworthiness items to eat your money in the early stages anyway.

good luck.

I put two AV30c units in a Cessna in December and removed the vacuum system. I only flew the plane a couple of times immediately after the installation. Since then I tied the gps into them but flew it just one short flight. But this past week I did fly it more and and am very impressed with them. With the gps feeding navigation information there is zero precession. The AH function is better than a vacuum driven instrument too. Plumbing is simple.

A single AV30 in a Cub would be great imo.

There is a DPE in the Sacramento area who has done several Cub guys for me - he loves the J3, and likes the Super Cub. I am trying to dredge his name from my memory banks, but he is a Master CFI, so easy to find.

Cubs do not need attitude instruments. Avoid instrument flight. I have taken my J3 through coastal clouds needle-ball-airspeed, but it was so long ago they cannot "get" me for it.

For your 45 degree banked turns, put a grease pencil line on the windshield. If you find a good DPE, demonstrate a hands-off 45 degree banked turn. The airplane will do it just fine all by itself.

I have two AV-30s in my Cessna. Love them! Here are a few thoughts regarding your situation:

1. I wouldn’t install an AV-30 just to do the PPL.

2. I WOULD install some sort of attitude indicator in most any plane I fly, including Cubs. Long story, but I painted myself in a corner and had to do a 2500 foot descent through a layer with only needle/ball/airspeed. That plane got an attitude indicator the next week.

3. The AV-30 is absolutely the best, simplest and least expensive attitude solution there is.

4. No need to punch another hole in that panel. Simple solution: remove that turn coordinator, move your altimeter down to that hole, and install an AV-30 where the altimeter is now. The AV-30 provides a slip skid ball, so replaces function of the T/C. The AV-30 provides airspeed/altitude/true a/s/Density Altitude (if you add an OAT probe)/AND….the same AV-30 can also display Directional Gyro info.

as Spinner noted, if you have a portable GPS, connect it to the AV-30 and it will slave the DG function and heading bug to the GOS.

These things are pure magic, folks. And, for a SC type plane, one would be a great solution to provide tremendous functionality in ONE instrument.

MTV

mvivion said:

I have two AV-30s in my Cessna. Love them! Here are a few thoughts regarding your situation:

1. I wouldn’t install an AV-30 just to do the PPL.

2. I WOULD install some sort of attitude indicator in most any plane I fly, including Cubs. Long story, but I painted myself in a corner and had to do a 2500 foot descent through a layer with only needle/ball/airspeed. That plane got an attitude indicator the next week.

3. The AV-30 is absolutely the best, simplest and least expensive attitude solution there is.

4. No need to punch another hole in that panel. Simple solution: remove that turn coordinator, move your altimeter down to that hole, and install an AV-30 where the altimeter is now. The AV-30 provides a slip skid ball, so replaces function of the T/C. The AV-30 provides airspeed/altitude/true a/s/Density Altitude (if you add an OAT probe)/AND….the same AV-30 can also display Directional Gyro info.

as Spinner noted, if you have a portable GPS, connect it to the AV-30 and it will slave the DG function and heading bug to the GOS.

These things are pure magic, folks. And, for a SC type plane, one would be a great solution to provide tremendous functionality in ONE instrument.

MTV

Click to expand...

Good idea to just move the inclinometer. I guess I would need a circuit breaker in there and don’t see a spot precut unless I’m missing that.

Someone asked how I did my 3 hours of required instrument- some was airspeed, turn Cordinator, ball in a 7eca, and some was in a 172.

Cardiff Kook said:

Good idea to just move the inclinometer. I guess I would need a circuit breaker in there and don’t see a spot precut unless I’m missing that.

Someone asked how I did my 3 hours of required instrument- some was airspeed, turn Cordinator, ball in a 7eca, and some was in a 172.

Click to expand...

Oops, I looked too quick at that inclinometer....it's not a TC. Power to the AV-30 would be easy. Drill a hole for the breaker.

Pretty easy installation, actually.

Hardest part is tapping into the pitot line for AV-30, and that's not hard.

MTV

And remember, you don’t need the certified version because it’s not replacing a required instrument. So that saves you $400


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EdH said:

And remember, you don’t need the certified version because it’s not replacing a required instrument. So that saves you $400


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Click to expand...

Wow. Really? I assumed anything installed in a certified airplane had to be certified. That not the case?

Any reason to go certified anyways?

Where are the “required”’instruments listed? I didn’t see it in the TCDS.

Required instruments are in the CFRs. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-91/subpart-C/section-91.205

You need to talk to your favorite IA about installed equipment. He’s the one who’ll sign it off, and he may not see it like some on the internet do.

cardiff kook said:

where are the “required”’instruments listed? I didn’t see it in the tcds.

Click to expand...

14 cfr 91.205

Ahhh. ATOMATOFLAMES. Gotcha.

The AV-30 is a great solution for a permanent installation, but there are other ways to display aircraft attitude on your panel.

If you already have an iPhone and a subscription to the ForeFlight app, purchase a ForeFlight Sentry, Stratus, or Garmin GDL50 GPS/ADS-B receiver/AHRS and a a suction cup mount for the iPhone. You can then use your iPhone for the EFIS display using the AHRS output from the device. In a PA-11 with no electrical system, I use a goose neck mount for the iPhone to position it at the top center of the panel in a horizontal orientation. The iPhone battery will only last an hour displaying EFIS, so you can connect it to a backup battery if necessary. With this setup, you can use an iPad on a kneeboard to display all other data from the portable device while using the iPhone exclusively for the attitude display. You can use the iPad as a back up to display the EFIS on a split screen.

Another option is the Dynon D3 "portable panel". This is a stand alone device that has an internal battery, GPS receiver, and AHRS. It comes with both a suction cup and portable instrument panel mount. Mounted in a fabric covered airplane, it will not need the external GPS antenna that comes with it. its internal battery is supposed to last four hours on a full charge, but you can plug in external power from a back-up battery or ship's power if you need to.

In your case, I think the AV-30 is an elegant solution for an airplane with an electrical system, but the above suggestions set you back between $500 and $900 with no installation costs. They also have the advantage of being portable and can be used in any other airplane you might fly.

Waldo- I have foreflight and sentry and therefore the AHARS. Unfortunately theDPE say you can't use it for attitude during checkride.

I think the DPE is making up his own rules, but as much as it would feel good to say "Its time to put your big boy pants on" I doubt that would be productive.

bob turner said:

There is a DPE in the Sacramento area who has done several Cub guys for me - he loves the J3, and likes the Super Cub. I am trying to dredge his name from my memory banks, but he is a Master CFI, so easy to find. Cubs do not need attitude instruments. Avoid instrument flight.......

Click to expand...

I believe there is a requirement for "flight solely by reference to instruments" (or something like that),
aka "hood time", as part of the private pilot checkride.
Using needle / ball / airspeed would meet that requirement, but is pretty tough to do--
plus I'm not sure that many DPE's would go along with it.
I'm pretty sure a sport pilot checkride doesn't require that hood time--
you can legally fly a J3 with a SP ticket, but it does come with some restrictions that don't apply to a PP ticket.

OP here. A little update and another slight wrinkle.

I have 60+ hours of tailwheel. Insurance requires ten hours of dual in make and model prior to my insurance kicking in- I assumed this was because I was student, but I called them and they said even if had my ticket I would need it.

So, even if I do my checkride in a 172 and get my ticket tomorrow, I will still need dual time to fly the plane- to be fair I already have 5.4.

I think the advice to probably "just get it done" in a 172 on the surface seems like the right advice. That was probably what I should have done 80 hours ago but I was hellbent on doing everything in a tailwheel. I'm stubborn like that.

I'm just thinking out loud here because I'm bored.

If I go 172 route- renting it and doing checkride
1. I have to pay for CFI and 172 time- 5 hours is my guess- maybe $1000 (I already checked out in 172, then I moved states)
2. I will still have to pay for 5 more hours of dual in my PA-18- which would be $300
3. When I'm done I won't have an AV-30.

Again- I appreciate all the information. I think the route I go is a toss up.

I also have very little interest in flying a 172 when my cub is sitting on the ground.

Cardiff Kook said:

I also have very little interest in flying a 172 when my cub is sitting on the ground.

Click to expand...

Sometimes it is best to just suck it up and bite the bullet. It only hurts for a short while then you will be off and flying.

Did you order it yet? MTV has the correct answer for you.

mvivion said:

I have two AV-30s in my Cessna. Love them! Here are a few thoughts regarding your situation:

1. I wouldn’t install an AV-30 just to do the PPL.

2. I WOULD install some sort of attitude indicator in most any plane I fly, including Cubs. Long story, but I painted myself in a corner and had to do a 2500 foot descent through a layer with only needle/ball/airspeed. That plane got an attitude indicator the next week.

3. The AV-30 is absolutely the best, simplest and least expensive attitude solution there is.

4. No need to punch another hole in that panel. Simple solution: remove that turn coordinator, move your altimeter down to that hole, and install an AV-30 where the altimeter is now. The AV-30 provides a slip skid ball, so replaces function of the T/C. The AV-30 provides airspeed/altitude/true a/s/Density Altitude (if you add an OAT probe)/AND….the same AV-30 can also display Directional Gyro info.

as Spinner noted, if you have a portable GPS, connect it to the AV-30 and it will slave the DG function and heading bug to the GOS.

These things are pure magic, folks. And, for a SC type plane, one would be a great solution to provide tremendous functionality in ONE instrument.

MTV

Click to expand...

Cardiff Kook,

5 Years ago I faced the exact same issue. I was wrapping up my PPL in my own recently purchased PA-18. I had 39 hours of previous 152/172 time. Probably 40-50 hours by test time in my own bird. My cub has no attitude indicator or DG, but does have a turn coordinator. I think overall the area examiner's opinion favored testing in my own plane from the get go, but had never faced this scenario and wanted to ask some questions and clarify on his end before we proceeded. I don't know if he ever got the truly solid answer he was looking for, as far as what is acceptable. In the end I tested in my own plane knowing that if given a longer scenario where I needed to rely on instruments only, it'd be more challenging using what I had.

Before my final outcome was reached, one of the options discussed was testing mostly in your own plane, and then renting a 152/172 for any unusual attitude or instrument portions of the test. So, take off and landing in the rented plane wasn't going to be me as PIC basically.

I know the feeling of wanting to be done, and not wanting to tinker/mod/repair the plane and delay taking friends and family up, and being on your own.. But I would buy the AV-30, install it and test in your plane. Wasted money in my opinion to spend all the cash getting only quasi proficient in a Cessna only for the test. When as you say, you could spend the money on your own plane and then have a tool that may help you in bad weather down the road.

Jeff

If you consider that having an attitude indicator would be a useful thing to have in the airplane after you get your private pilot certificate, then the AV-30 is a good value proposition. install it and take the check ride close to home. If the only purpose for an attitude indicator is to take the check ride and never use it again, then it is probably less trouble to finish the training in a different airplane.

You would no doubt have to travel for it, but there are tailwheel schools out there that have a gyro equipped airplane to take the ride in.

My daughter was in a similar situation a fews years ago. She learned to fly in our PA-11 and completed all the private pilot experience requirements she could in that airplane. That was before all the portable AHRS equipment was available so taking the check ride for a full private pilot rating in that airplane wasn't considered. Local flight schools had problems with airplane and instructor availability and were unable to keep scheduled appointments. She ended up traveling to an American Flyers location to get the instrument and night flying qualifications she needed and take the the practical test. They seem to specialize in "finish up" training for pilot ratings as well as initial training. The school assessed her skills and provided only the training she needed very efficiently. I think she was there for four days including the check ride. I was rather surprised that they did not "milk" the deal by giving her training she didn't need. She thought that the quality of the instruction was good. [She also thought that flying a 172 isn't nearly as much fun as flying a Cub.] Unfortunately, it doesn't look like that company has any locations in the Pacific Northwest. It would be great if you can find a local flight school that can do the same thing. I only mention it to show her experience in a situation like yours.

I’d install an AV-30 long before I spent nearly the same on getting checked out and renting a 172. Install it where your Altimeter is like MTV suggested, and get your CFI to give you dual while you get used to it (with and without a hood) before your check ride. Easy decision IMO.


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Save your money. Go to Madison SD and finish your checkride with Riggin Flying Service.

Do the panel next year.


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Question- some on here saying “don’t buy for check ride. Only if you need it after.”

Why would someone ever “need” an attitude indicator in a VFR plane. My thought is it’s added safety in i make a mistake and get myself in jam. Isn’t that that the only reason to have it?

Or is there some “need” here others have I’m not aware of?

Or a HI, or a VSI. Aren’t they “nice to haves.”

I think the density altitude could be helpful as I recently moved in proximity to the mountains in central Oregon from coastal socal.

Cardiff - I could be completely wrong here, and if so please forgive me. I have the sense that you're looking for a variety of gauges to tell you everything about your flying, and that - in my opinion - is a fool's errand. Listen to Bob T., since it sounds like you and he know each other - I bet he'd tell you the same. The gadgets are great supplements to seat of the pants, the view out the window, and just the 'feel' of the plane. They're even replacements in IMC. But right now you're thinking in term of VFR and for that you mostly need the feel, the sight picture, and the experience in a variety of flight regimes, repeated many times since each instance is a little bit different. Please understand, I don't consider myself an expert by any measure. But I think in a Cub, "feeling" the plane is paramount. With respect - -

Sooner or later, you will find yourself flying in marginal weather even if that's not what you intended to do when you took off. You might use of the magnetic compass, the ball/bank indicator, and a sensitive altimeter to escape from that situation; I have.

The best situation is avoidance, but I can tell you that having the attitude and a stable heading indication that an AV-30 provides would make that escape a lot easier.

I happen to believe that learning to fly by feel and the seat of your pants is very much better than relying on gauges to tell you what the airplane is doing. That is the right way to learn primary VFR flying, but trying to fly by the seat of your pants will very quickly kill you in an inadvertent encounter with IMC. That's true whether you have 20 or 20,000 flying hours.

Cardiff Kook said:

Or a HI, or a VSI. Aren’t they “nice to haves.”

I think the density altitude could be helpful as I recently moved in proximity to the mountains in central Oregon from coastal socal.

Click to expand...

I’ll just add that in central Oregon you’ll run into fire seasons. You might take off in VFR 7 mile visibility and, while following a valley, suddenly notice you can see straight down, but can’t make out a horizon.

It could be sunny and no clouds and 3/4 mile visibility before you’re aware of it.

Attitude indicator would be very useful to get you out of that.


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Beware the AV-30. Impressive features and appearance, but not reliable and completely unsupported by manufacturer. Personal experience.
Apparently you get what you pay for, but sometimes even less...

George

NE Cub said:

Beware the AV-30. Impressive features and appearance, but not reliable and completely unsupported by manufacturer. Personal experience.
Apparently you get what you pay for, but sometimes even less...

George

Click to expand...

Well...if you are going to throw them under the bus, at least detail your problems and how you tried to fix them.