Flaps - No Flaps

[D.A.]

Basic question, how much difference do flaps make on landing and takeoff distance? Our Tango Cub doesn't have flaps. I remember being impressed watching Jason G (Years ago) competing in local STOL contests. He was amazing and could paint the mains right on the stripe. I'm not planning on competing but I'm curious how much difference flaps make as apposed to no flaps. In other words, if Jason or one of the others had simply left their flaps up, how much longer of a landing roll or takeoff roll would they have had-ish?
Thanks in advance
D.A.

[DENNY]

Response deleted due to somehow offending the OP.
DENNY

[D.A.]

Dude - - - I don’t even know where to start with this one…

It makes a lot of difference on a short strip or when heavy!!! How much distance depends on a lot of factors HP/weight/wing/altitude/tires/AOA…

Dude - - - I’m referring to guys in the controlled environment of a STOL competition. It’s just the same pilot, the same plane, the same day, the same strip, just simply “Flaps or no flaps” is the variable.

…Planting the mains on the stripe is a pilot not a flaps thing.

Dude - - - I was just admiring how well Jason flew his airplane. Did you SERIOUSLY think I thought flaps made a difference on hitting the stripe?

…I would say 50 feet on a good day at MSL.

THAT’S what I was looking for, thank you.

[Tennessee]

He was just contributing his thoughts leading up to a well thought out opinion.

[Colorado-Cub]

Dude:

Flaps are worth even more for high DA ops. Easy 100' for anything above 6KMSL, and the heavier you are the worse it gets.

(Coming from a dude in a lightweight experimental -11 on +3 gear, Acme's, 29 ABWs, and 3/4" gurney flaps installed which do make a world of difference but do not compare to a real flap. I love my exp-11, but I dream about flaps late at night when no one is watchiing.)

[hotrod180]

He was just contributing his thoughts leading up to a well thought out opinion.

I agree. But you forgot the "dude".

[stewartb]

To me there’s a linear performance relationship between power and flaps. To maximize one requires the other. Stock Supercubs got flaps with the 150hp engine. Very few pilots I’ve seen have elected to use no flaps when their planes had them. There’s good reason.

[BC12D-4-85]

Ask a Cub owner about flaps, ask if they've never used them? Wait for deer in headlights stare.
Gary

[stewartb]

Me. When my continuous loop flap cable locking scheme allowed my flaps to release to zero unexpectedly. I stopped using them until I changed the flap system. No flaps required more speed and more space.

[BC12D-4-85]

I like and used them when available. The lift helps especially on floats, and drag is available without slips. Some like my Taylorcraft will resist landing at the end of a fun flight.

Gary

[RedOwlAirfield]

I know I am in the minority here but for the vast majority of the flying public, the reduction of landing distance is nominal. Lots of the posters here are heavy off airport guys who need every inch they can get as margin. I understand and respect that. But unless you're landing more off airport strips than public fields, or participating in STOL contests, the difference flaps make in landing distance shouldn't really make any difference at all in practical usage. Yes you'll land shorter, but how danged short do you really need to land? We are talking Cubs here. Landing distance isn't usually a risk factor for our preferred type. There's nothing wrong with flaps but they're not the be all end all that a lot of folks think they are. All of which is only to say, just like anything else it depends on pilot technique and environmental demand.

[cubdrvr]

IMO.......
They put flaps on an aircraft for a reason. Not just that you'll land shorter, but you'll land slower and safer.......and be in the air quicker. I can't remember a time I didn't use full flaps for a landing.

[sixmile]

flaps for every take off and landing. performance ones at that

[D.A.]

Dude:…from a dude in a lightweight experimental -11…and 3/4" gurney flaps installed which do make a world of difference…

Unfortunately my Cub is certified so I can’t put on Gurney flaps but I remember a guy on here years ago that had them on a J5 and swore by them. Also, I recently saw them on one of the Super Cubs that Jimmy Butler used to own. They didn’t put ANYTHING on their ships that didn’t work.

Dude:…I dream about flaps late at night when no one is watchiing.)

I’m actually the same way. The kit for a PA12 from Dakota is only about $3,000, I couldn’t find a price for a SC flap kit. Although there could be times where 100 feet could be the difference between an great day or a really really long day, a few months and a few thousand dollars is a lot to pay for 100 feet. Oh no, I feel the “Sell your current Cub and get the right Cub” rant about to start - LOL.

[D.A.]

...you forgot the "dude".

Eric, if you're ever within 400 miles of Coeur d'Alene, the fridge is always cold...Dude

[D.A.]

...Very few pilots I’ve seen have elected to use no flaps when their planes had them...

Completely agree. It was just a question of what the difference in distance might be, not whether or not you should use them. Just curious.

[D.A.]

...performance ones at that

Are you talking about the Keller type?

[stewartb]

There’s more to flaps than just ground distances. More useful AOA, ability to fly steeper approach at slower speeds, ability to fly slow flight in more useful attitudes at slower speeds, earlier lift off to gain speed in ground effect, ability to lift the tail or keep the tail up at slower ground speeds and dump flaps to drop the tail and use heavy braking. Things I use all the time.

[Greg Harvey]

There’s more to flaps than just ground distances. More useful AOA, ability to fly steeper approach at slower speeds, ability to fly slow flight in more useful attitudes at slower speeds, earlier lift off to gain speed in ground effect, ability to lift the tail or keep the tail up at slower ground speeds and dump flaps to drop the tail and use heavy braking. Things I use all the time.

I don’t have flaps on my PT 17 stearman and seems to work ok
although when you reduce power on the 2960 lbs and all the drag wires it comes down fast

[RaisedByWolves]

I don’t have flaps on my PT 17 stearman and seems to work ok
although when you reduce power on the 2960 lbs and all the drag wires it comes down fast

On my checkout years ago he told me to throw a brick out on downwind and it will hit us in the head when we touch down. It’s impressive when you put it in a full slip what it will do.


I will say the pstol flaps work really well on floats.
Full flap on every takeoff and landing for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BC12D-4-85]

That's an interesting comment re PSTOL flaps on floats. There's not much been discussed about that mode and mod. A local felt they were no better on floats with them vs larger flaps, but maybe that's just one opinion. I'd like to hear more with some supporting data.

Gary

[D.A.]

Thanks for everyone's input, good discussion, knowledgeable group! I wasn't trying to justify anyone's use of flaps, just wanting to know what the distance difference would be IF you didn't use yours for comparison. At least for now, mine does not have flaps, wish it did.
One last question, what would be the difference, Flaps no Flap, in a downwind turn?
Thanks in advance

[stewartb]

Ask a friend to fly his Cub in both configurations and observe. That’ll be evidence as opposed to internet chatter.

[General]

FWIW: I really struggled with the flap/no-flap question on my Cub when I ordered new wings. What I determined was that the trade off in weight and "complexity" was not worth the advantage flaps provide. There is not much I can't get my Cub into, and in my mind it's far simpler to slip a light cub than to justify a heavier one with flaps. Are they more effective? Yes, of course. But when you don't have them, still have a capable aircraft, and need to justify weight, performance, and cost - it did not make sense yet. My daughter will be training in and taking over my Cub, and I think learning how to fine tune a landing with slips and stick and rudder skills will pay off in the future.

[skywagon8a]

My daughter will be training in and taking over my Cub, and I think learning how to fine tune a landing with slips and stick and rudder skills will pay off in the future.

Reason enough for a no flap airplane. Keep the instruments to a minimum also. She needs to learn how to fly first. All the other stuff can be added piece meal.

Me, I'll take the advantages of the flaps. Their advantages offset their added weight.

[D.A.]

…I really struggled with the flap/no-flap question on my Cub…

That’s where I’ve been as I’ve been getting ready to put this Cub back together

…What I determined was that the trade off in weight and "complexity" was not worth the advantage flaps provide. …

Thank you and “Doggone it” all at the same time - LOL. I'm really happy with this Cub and don’t want to “Sell it and get the right one” but - - - but I wish it had flaps. However, for what it would reduce in take off and landing distances probably isn’t worth the time (A month or 2 for most, a year or 5 for me - LOL) and expense (Dipping into the retirement hobby shop bucket) for the type of flying I’ll be doing.

Thanks for the post General, that’s pretty much what I’ve come to - doggone it…

[General]

I'll add also that given a good justification, floats for example, I would not hesitate on flaps. Also, if I bumped the engine to a O-320 I would add them. But with a c90-8f, the ~$15,000 is best spent on an instructor for my daughter, oil, and gas.

Everyone has their own needs. Mine did not total up to flaps.

[BC12D-4-85]

I put flaps on a PA-11-90. For $6K it added 20# for the flaps and another unknown but not insignificant for the required balanced tail. I flew it 14 years on EDO 1320's, 26" wheels, and Aero 2000 skis. The flaps allowed a 35 mph landing, but if deployed 25* prior to that speed would slow the takeoff on floats due to drag and relatively low AOA. I added a third 12* notch and found it helped "some" on floats. There's simply not enough power to apply lots of flap and expect the plane to elevate like a more powerful Cub. And weight is critical at low power.

Gary

[supercrow]

About 40 yrs ago my brother put flaps on a J-3 with the 0200 and a 74-36 prop. Worked really well on wheels, skis, and floats. The flaps were usable for sure.