What fabric to use

[Zook]

So after a lot of delays I’m ready to order the fabric. Now the question is what do I go with. I like how the stewards system works but it sounds like it’s hard to get a nice finish. I like the old dope system because it sounds bullet proof but it needs ventilation. I like the poly system from Germany but it can’t be installed over bear metal so I’d have to prime all the wings. I know it is a lot of work just trying to get a feel for what you all think. Is there any systems out there that have used a combination of systems. What I’d like to do is the Stewart’s system but not use there paint at the end. Any body do this?

[buckchop]

Prime the wings to cover them with Oratex? Orrrrr something else?
I never primed my wings b4 covering with Oratex 6000, that sounds wrong to me, i scuffed the to b glued surface with scotchbrite, wiped off with acetone, put two coats of glue on, and installed the fabric, u should prime the steel fuselage, or other steel parts but thats for rust preventing

[cubdrvr]

Check out airtechcoatings.com

[acroeric]

Covering my Javron in Air tech now. Have done probably 25 airplanes prior with Poly Fiber or Ceconite. Air Tech is a bunch faster. I still think I can make Poly Fiber look better though. Just much more labor. I'd use it again in a heartbeat. People underestimate the labor involved to cover an aircraft.

For whatever reason I can not warm up to Oratex. I've seen several airplanes covered in it and none have been equal in appearance to a proper Poly Fiber/Ceconite/Stewarts/ Air Tech covering job IMO.

[stewartb]

I’e used Ceconite w/ dope and Stits w/ Aerothane but if I build another it’ll probably use Superflite System 7.

[Hardtailjohn]

I finally almost killed myself with the solvent borne systems, so I use Stewart. Why don't you come up and take a 3 day course and see how easy the paint is to use? There's a whole bunch of wives tales out there.
John

[supercub83a]

I wouldn’t use stewarts if you plan to operate in cold environments or dont have significant experience painting. I have taken a class and used it consistently to patch my previous certified cub but I would never cover a plane in it. Polyfiber is the gold standard but like you im not interested in toxic systems. Oratex is nontoxic but comes with both advantages and disadvantages. Air Tech is probably a good compromise but I havent seen it here in Alaska so like with oratex you are taking some risk for longevity and durability. All my opinions and while evidence based they are the opinions of a fairly novice builder and moderately experienced cub driver.


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[Marty57]

I finally almost killed myself with the solvent borne systems, so I use Stewart. Why don't you come up and take a 3 day course and see how easy the paint is to use? There's a whole bunch of wives tales out there.
John

As John said; it's about learning how to use Stewart Systems. Here's a shot of finished panels from one of the seminars we teach. These panels were all done in my garage/shop by first time users of Stewart Systems. Three days, start to finish.

Marty57

[bob turner]

I like Ceconite and Stitts + Butyrate, because I can get a really shiny finish. If Stewart’s ever certifies Butyrate as a top coat I would consider it. I get really good patches using the Eko products under dope.

Aerothane and Airtek are catalyzed urethanes, and while stunningly beautiful, they contain cyano-acrylates, and I believe them to be far more dangerous than dope or Polyfiber. You need a mask with external air, and probably a full body suit.

I have been told that the top coat of the Stewarts system is somewhat toxic- my buddy really suited up when he started spraying. I will never know; my personality does not lend itself to such a precise task. I just dump a little thinner in, stir a bit, and pull the trigger.

[Steve Pierce]

If you Google "fabric system site:supercub.org" you will find more information than you might care to read. All the systems have the pluses and minuses.

[gntw]

[QUOTESteve pa-12 oratec job metal pieces in endra silver .doing another on in yellow .this fall a javeron cub .don’t know Color yet.will be 8 In oratec Pierce;844845]If you Google "fabric system site:supercub.org" you will find more information than you might care to read. All the systems have the pluses and minuses.[/QUOTE]

[Sikorsky]

I used Stewart’s through silver, PPG aerospace primer, PPG aerospace top coat. Stewart’s paint I played with and couldn’t get it to perform. If I were to do it again I would make the same choice and NOT use Stewart’s top coat. I’d use to Airtech top coat or PPG. If yellow airtech, if a higher solids color probably PPG. Horse apiece between the two IMO. This was my first cover job. Turned out ok.

I helped a friend do wings with poly fiber and nearly died in the paint booth. Closest to death I have ever been. I WILL NOT GO NEAR THAT STUFF FOR ANY AMOUNT OF MONEY. HARD STOP.

Zach

[Steve Pierce]

All you need with Polyfiber is a charcoal respirator until you get onto the polyurethane paint and then you need fresh air like any other polyurethane except Stewart's which you just need the charcoal respirator for because the bad stuff is encapsulated in water molecules.

[Dan Gervae]

Stewart’s is great…as indicated…especially up to top coat. However, the Stewart’s top coat can be amazing…by the time you figure it out you’re through several issues and it can be a little bit of pain getting there. Once you finally commit to following the process and after you make a few mistakes,….. It’s awesome.

[buckchop]

Well yes poly and the others look great after u paint 6,8,10,12 coats of paint on it, (beat to fit paint to match) anything looks good after u cover all the ugly with paint, not to mention the weight u add with that paint, only the solvents flash off. This not my first rodeo, have done lots of poly fiber work and its great cause u get to burn it all together, and its a proven system for sure, That water born Stewards S*** is only good for fixing up the inside of my shop trashcan b4 i take it to the dumpster, I removed that stuff off a few planes here cause of problems, Bad saggy fabric, Lifting paint right to clean fabric, BAD ringworm, ect. I did the Oratex 6000 3day class, covered a pa12 fuse and tailfeathers and killed 10.7lbs with just fabric. Now my 12 is done in it and ill never go back to wearing a mask to cover my plane, ill just use it to paint the next hotrod or muscle car.
When u use the Oratex system, u need to forget everything u know about workin poly or stewards, this system is NOT the same on installing. You have to remember ur applying ur top finish coat that everyone will c when u cover with Oratex fabrics. Ur Not able to blast another coat of paint to hide that last F-up.
Tell me how to post pic on this site and ill post some of my build.
Bucky

[Bearhawk Builder]

I'm so sick of this topic, let's talk politics or religion.

[eskimo77]

Irish linen

[Steve Pierce]

I wanna know where to get this paint that hides F ups. That would really come in handy.

[skywagon8a]

Irish linen

A good and proper Irish linen job will last 50+ years.

[bob turner]

In a hangar.

[fishhook]

Im still on the fence on the next one if Im going cheap and doing poly fiber or dropping the coin for oratex and spend a third of the time covering. I was taught fabric on polyfiber and it is tried and true. I have seen quite a few stewarts with ringworm and other issues but then again it can be all prep work that was crappy. No experience or even seen anything done with air tech yet up here in AK as far as I know so im curious about that.

[Steve Pierce]

Im still on the fence on the next one if Im going cheap and doing poly fiber or dropping the coin for oratex and spend a third of the time covering.

I am curious about Oratex being a 3rd the time?

[courierguy]

The guys I know say it took a bit longer to cover, compared to older methods, but they had a learning curve, never working with it before. BUT, once covered, they were done, so in total quite a time saving.

[supercub83a]

Having covered my plane in Oratex, I think 1/3rd the time is very optimistic. Probably 3/4 the time in my case but it was my first time using oratex so there was a learning curve. Im sure next time would be faster but not a whole lot faster. I also took great care to make it look good, but I couldve made an airworthy product much much faster if I didnt want a little pride in my work.


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[fishhook]

Just basing it off my friend that covered a cub quickly, it didnt look good up close but it was airworthy for sure. Im an airworthy kind of guy anyways when it comes to working planes. I just dont see spending all that time for a perfect finish when your just going to go out and drag it through the alders and kick rocks all over it. He had it done way quicker than I thought but he has done 3 or 4 planes in it now. Most of the time is saved by once its on its on and done. No masking, sanding, airflow, masks, multiple and many coats, but recently I heard the price has gotten quite spendy. But then again everything has.

[buckchop]

Well anyone around Fairbanks is welcome to come take a look at the pa12, ask questions, if i could get this site to post a pic. Lol

[buckchop]

Attachment 65395Attachment 65396

[Steve Pierce]

Just basing it off my friend that covered a cub quickly, it didnt look good up close but it was airworthy for sure. Im an airworthy kind of guy anyways when it comes to working planes. I just dont see spending all that time for a perfect finish when your just going to go out and drag it through the alders and kick rocks all over it. He had it done way quicker than I thought but he has done 3 or 4 planes in it now. Most of the time is saved by once its on its on and done. No masking, sanding, airflow, masks, multiple and many coats, but recently I heard the price has gotten quite spendy. But then again everything has.

I figured the time savings was in spraying and sanding. i figure it takes a little more time to install but haven't done any except patches.

[Utah-Jay]

I used Oratex, I think “a 3rd of the time” relates to the covering and painting process. Oratex is not going to give you the beautiful wet paint look, I was not going for that look but am very happy with what I got. I have a buddy going through the painting process now and he is very envious of my Oratex. Oratex is way more durable and easy to patch, yep figure landing on dirt and gravel strips the underside of the tail is gonna get messed up from time to time. I am not a weight weenie, but Oratex is lighter as well.

That being said, Oratex is NOT going to look like paint.

Pick your poison and dive in

[1934A]

I haven't ever really understood the negativity towards oratex. No, it doesnct give the shiny, showroom finish as you can get with a good paint job, but the simplicity, ease of repair, and weight savings seems like it would make it well worth considering. I'm more of a function over form type of person, so how shiny my plane is, isn't as important to me as it is to some people, I guess.

[buckchop]

Well it is about function for sure, im not lookin for a hanger gueen, or to look better than the guys parked next to me (oh wait i own both them planes also) lol, the Oratex isnt as shinny as a painted plane for sure, but damm good enough for me.

[68Papa]

I haven't ever really understood the negativity towards oratex. No, it doesnct give the shiny, showroom finish as you can get with a good paint job, but the simplicity, ease of repair, and weight savings seems like it would make it well worth considering. I'm more of a function over form type of person, so how shiny my plane is, isn't as important to me as it is to some people, I guess.

Does anyone have any idea how Oratex holds up after 10-15 years in cold, northern climates?

[supercub83a]

Ive had a covered wood frame outside here in Fairbanks for about 3 years. Still looks as good as new. You can count on it being more durable than stewarts in the cold. The other systems are also more durable than stewarts in the cold. Not many here in the interior that will use it. With oratex there isnt any paint so no ring worm or cracks. The glue is at least as good as any other system (I do like stewarts glue too, have used it for patches on ceconite and also covered an elevator using the system, would be more concerned with the glues reported petroleum susceptibility than cold issues). With oratex the only concern I have is how the finishing tapes will hold up (tapes have different glue than the primary oratex glue). There are several in the area like buckchop that havent reported any problems. Its not really a brand new system anymore, saw the first planes covered in it almost 15 years ago. People do tend to be tight lipped about problems with things they spend a lot of money on though!

A lot of people have to reshrink the oratex in the cold, but that is a onetime thing. Oratex is supposed to shrink as much as the other systems but it also gets elastic when heated so that seems to limit how hard it can pull. In other words I think it can not pull quite as tight as dacron. In the cold the frame shrinks causing wrinkles (also have seen this on several dacron planes). Seems to be you push it out in the cold, then hit it with irons or heat guns and it tightens up permanently.

If you’re going non-toxic in the arctic I think oratex is your only safe option.


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[mvivion]

Ive had a covered wood frame outside here in Fairbanks for about 3 years. Still looks as good as new. You can count on it being more durable than stewarts in the cold. The other systems are also more durable than stewarts in the cold. Not many here in the interior that will use it. With oratex there isnt any paint so no ring worm or cracks. The glue is at least as good as any other system (I do like stewarts glue too, have used it for patches on ceconite and also covered an elevator using the system, would be more concerned with the glues reported petroleum susceptibility than cold issues). With oratex the only concern I have is how the finishing tapes will hold up (tapes have different glue than the primary oratex glue). There are several in the area like buckchop that havent reported any problems. Its not really a brand new system anymore, saw the first planes covered in it almost 15 years ago. People do tend to be tight lipped about problems with things they spend a lot of money on though!

A lot of people have to reshrink the oratex in the cold, but that is a onetime thing. Oratex is supposed to shrink as much as the other systems but it also gets elastic when heated so that seems to limit how hard it can pull. In other words I think it can not pull quite as tight as dacron. In the cold the frame shrinks causing wrinkles (also have seen this on several dacron planes). Seems to be you push it out in the cold, then hit it with irons or heat guns and it tightens up permanently.

If you’re going non-toxic in the arctic I think oratex is your only safe option.


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Every fabric covered plane I pulled out of a warm hangar into serious sub zero temps had the fabric sag initially for a bit. Always seemed to recover shortly though, so that's not just Oratex.

MTV

[ak49flyer]

That’s a different thing- some that aren’t shrunk enough will stay saggy in the cold even when structure temps equalize. Most common place I see it is when pulling into a warm hangar when it’s cold out- fabric warms quickly but it takes the structure a while to catch up…

[Steve Pierce]

I have seen it with cold and humidity on wings I covered myself and know that I went over them multiple time with the iron at the correct temperature.

[courierguy]

I had that cold weather winkle issue with my Poly Fiber, in one area only, figured I must have not done that area correctly. Just a few minutes in the sun and it would go away, but it still bugged me. Then someone here gave me the tip of using a silicone sheet under the iron, when going over finish paint, and darn if it didn't work perfect, my fabric wrinkles are gone. At least in the single digit temps I fly in.

[stewartb]

I’ve tried ironing finished fabric using parchment paper to protect the paint. The temp required to shrink fabric will easily melt the polyfiber undercoatings and leaves a krinkle finish in the paint. I won’t do that again.

[Steve Pierce]

I’ve tried ironing finished fabric using parchment paper to protect the paint. The temp required to shrink fabric will easily melt the polyfiber undercoatings and leaves a krinkle finish in the paint. I won’t do that again.

I have done it with good results. I did learn the hardway to let the paper cool before peeling it off.

[stewartb]

I figure fabric shrinks but paint coatings don’t.