Prebuy- Mechanic Flying the Airplane?

[Cardiff Kook]

Let's assume the mechanic (IA) in question has 500 hours in the make and model, owns one himself, and is/was a commercial pilot with thousands of hours total time. Let's assume his credentials make him as competent as anyone.

Is it reasonable during a prebuy to request to have a competent pilot/mechanic fly the airplane as part of that prebuy? Should such a request be reasonably denied? I guess I am just trying to figure out what the norm is here. I have only bought one other plane- and my prebuy mechanic flew it during the prebuy.

I'm under contract on a plane subject to prebuy and the owner does not want to let the mechanic fly it. He said, "I am the only person who has ever flown that airplane for 40 years and I don't know this guy." I get it- but you are selling the airplane? I went up in the plane for about 20 minutes when I put down the deposit- about 5 minutes on the controls. We did not have time for anything more because I flew in to see the plane and seller waffled on selling it to me ("I promised I would hold it for someone else...") so ran out of time before my flight home to do a proper flight. He says "you already flew it" but that wasn't a real test flight- I was in the right seat for one and had the controls for a couple of minutes (though it was nice to see that it did indeed fly before I gave him a deposit)

I want the mechanic to fly it because he knows these airplanes like the back of his hand. I do not. Couldn't tell you what a "nice flying" 185 feels like. Most my time is in a super cub at this point.

I know at the end of the day the seller can make any decision he wants, and I can make any decision I want. I am just wondering what generally accepted process is here.

[mvivion]

There's no way a potential buyer would take my plane out for a flight, regardless of his experience in type. Suppose the guy rolls it up in a ball.....he walks away, the buyer walks away, and I have to file with my insurance company, likely for less money than the airplane would sell for.

I'd ask the seller politely if he'd take your mechanic for a short flight, and let him get a feel for the plane. If he says no, and my mechanic is comfortable with the pre-buy, I'd probably buy it and go home with that mechanic flying it for you.

Frankly, you don't have a lot of leverage. And, the risk is high for the seller. Especially if he's priced it fairly, he may not be in a rush to sell.

MTV

[frequent_flyer]

Is it reasonable during a prebuy to request to have a competent pilot/mechanic fly the airplane as part of that prebuy?

If I were selling an aircraft with controls at 2 seats I would allow a potential purchaser to fly from either seat as long as I was in the other seat. I would not allow someone to fly a single seat aircraft before they purchased it.

[skywagon8a]

I'd ask the seller politely if he'd take your mechanic for a short flight, and let him get a feel for the plane. If he says no, and my mechanic is comfortable with the pre-buy, I'd probably buy it and go home with that mechanic flying it for you.

Frankly, you don't have a lot of leverage. And, the risk is high for the seller. Especially if he's priced it fairly, he may not be in a rush to sell.

MTV

I agree with Mike except for this. Sometimes an airplane which is out of rig for some reason can't be seen on a visual inspection. A quick flight would turn up this type of issue.
A fellow I know bought a rebuilt 185 after a prebuy by a qualified IA DER. I flew it after the fact.. It was so crooked, it couldn't be rigged out. It took a while, but we did find it had been rebuilt incorrectly.
Another airplane I did a test flight and found a crooked airplane. In both cases the planes looked good.

Have the seller take your mechanic for a flight and let the mechanic fly the airplane. He doesn't need to take off and land it.

[Pete Schoeninger]

I sold airplanes for about 15 years. In most cases I would not let a potential buyer land an airplane I had for sale. In flight, yes, I would allow the buyer, his mechanic, his CFI, almost anybody within reason handle the controls. One example why from early in my career: I had a 182 for sale. A young man and his girlfriend were interested in buying it, and they owned a 172. The guy commented to me that he heard that 182's were heavy on controls during landing. I made the mistake of letting him complete a landing, and I was a little slow grabbing the controls when he did not flare enough. NO damage to the airplane but to save face the guy told his girlfriend "See, I was right, these things are very hard to land." He was not persuaded by my comments that some nose up trim and a little power makes 182s very easy to land. So, sale lost for Pete, but lesson learned!

[stewartb]

Meh. I’ve never flown or flown in an airplane I was buying until after the deal was closed. Not a big deal to me.

[mvivion]

I agree with Mike except for this. Sometimes an airplane which is out of rig for some reason can't be seen on a visual inspection. A quick flight would turn up this type of issue.
A fellow I know bought a rebuilt 185 after a prebuy by a qualified IA DER. I flew it after the fact.. It was so crooked, it couldn't be rigged out. It took a while, but we did find it had been rebuilt incorrectly.
Another airplane I did a test flight and found a crooked airplane. In both cases the planes looked good.

Have the seller take your mechanic for a flight and let the mechanic fly the airplane. He doesn't need to take off and land it.

Agreed on the rigging issue. Same could be argued for proper landing gear rigging, which may be even more critical. Both MAY be able to be addressed by re rigging, but clearly better to get it right to start.

Question is, would you walk if the guy said “no more flights”, for whatever reason?

MTV

[hotrod180]

.... He says "you already flew it" but that wasn't a real test flight- I was in the right seat for one and had the controls for a couple of minutes (though it was nice to see that it did indeed fly before I gave him a deposit)...

About 25 years ago, I put my first airplane (stock c150) up for sale.
A guy got ahold of me, and gave me a sob story about it being too tough for him to come to me.
So I flew over to his airport so he could check it out. (mistake)
Turns out he had previously been partners on a C150, actually more like a flying club with about 8 owners.
We went for a brief flight, when we got back there was a small mob of people waiting.
"Oh the other guys got here" he says, when he hopped out he asked them "who's next?".
"I gotta go" I said. Never heard another word from him.

I think there are a lot of non-serious people out there who just wanna kick tires & go for test rides,
and have no intention of buying.
I think maybe this seller thinks you're one of them.
Have you actually given him a deposit?

Speaking of deposits, when I sold my C150TD about 8 years ago,
a guy came to look at it.
He was an A&P, did a moderately thorough inspection,
pored over the logbooks, and told me he wanted to buy it.
We agreed on a price, shook hands on the deal,
and he was getting ready to drive off when I told him it was customary to put down earnest money.
He pulled out his wallet & gave me a hundred bucks.
I thought to myself " I guess he's not very earnest",
but he came back about 10 days later, gave me a cashier's check, and flew it away.

Funny, because when I bought my C180 a month or two before that,
from a friend of mine no less, I volunteered earnest money without being asked,
and gave him ten grand.

[mam90]

Wouldn’t buy a car or airplane without a ride. Don’t let me fly, that’s fine, I get it. Acceptance of factory new corporate jets usually took about a week of flights and fixes. But there was the occasional customer who showed up, got their picture taken with some company executive and flew away. To each their own.
On used aircraft, a deposit was made after a contract was signed which allowed for a certain number of flight hours (usually 1 or 2, or the flight to the location for pre-buy) in addition to the pre-buy inspection. Airworthiness items were required to be fixed, everything else was a negotiation. But I think this was all covered in another thread here.. However, the seller gets to control all of that, especially in a tight market.

[Cardiff Kook]

When the plane went for sale I got a barnstormers alert. I called the guy immediately. At 530am the following morning me and a mechanic were on a commercial flight to go see the plane. By just after lunch i had given him a $3,000 all cash deposit. I would have given him more but he needed time to to read over the purchase sale agreement. This all happened about 24 hrs after it went for sale and I live a couple thousand miles away. I also paid asking price. Tire kickers don’t generally fly an a&p in at 530am and spend $1500 on the flights to see it. If he thinks I am a tire kicker I don’t think I can solve that one.

I am glad i asked the question because it sounds like its not a given for the mechanic to get a ride. Just surprising to me when buying a plane that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars that wouldn’t be a standard practice.

[mam90]

Cardiff, it’s your money and your decision… Just because airplanes have been bought without a ride, or even a pre buy does not mean “that’s the way it’s done”. Last year, houses in our neighborhood were selling for 650,000 without an inspection because the market was tight and there were those willing to do it. You’ve got to decide and be comfortable with your decision. The markets tight, if you want the airplane you’ve got to decide if the seller’s conditions are acceptable to you, and then live with it. You. Not someone on this site. Just my 2 cents…..

[Cardiff Kook]

@mam- this is true. I just like to know what is/is not normal.

[mam90]

And all I’m trying to say is there is no real “normal”, so much is market and individual differences. I won’t buy one without at least a ride. Stewart is fine doing that…. Either one is fine if the buyer is comfortable.

[bob turner]

Before you spend big bucks for a visit, get an agreement as to what will happen. If the owner cannot take you in the right seat for a quick flight (no landing) then don’t go.

Rigging is a big deal, as is trim tab function. But an airplane the owner is scared to fly may have other issues.

I too have experienced joy riders. One memorable incident was in a Stinson Reliant. The guy wanted a tour of San Diego. He did get a 20 minute flight.

I will never fly an aircraft to the buyer’s location before the deal is done, the ownership transferred, and I am insured for the flight.

[BC12D-4-85]

It might be helpful here or in another thread to note what to look for during a pre-buy flight? Some of us aren't test pilots, but there's those here who are.

Gary

[DENNY]

Every plane flys different. Every cub I have flown always feels different from all the others. Some of it is rigging/mods/ect. If it flew straight had an easy stall and landed without gyrations I would not worry (if you did not let of of the controls and stall it in that 5 min of control time that is kind of on you). It really only takes a short flight to figure out how a plane handles. Engine issues can take a (hot or cold cylinder) bit longer. Motors especially old or higher time ones are always a crap shoot, that will sort itself out in the next few years. You already know you may need to reskin the fuel tank that is just cubic dollars. No harm in asking for the owner to take the IA up in the right seat. If you IA says its good, fly it home and see how the romance works out. Have you figured out how to get it home?? I would suggest having the IA fly it back, that way if any problems arise he can fix them in route.
DENNY

[skywagon8a]

Agreed on the rigging issue. Same could be argued for proper landing gear rigging, which may be even more critical. Both MAY be able to be addressed by re rigging, but clearly better to get it right to start.

Question is, would you walk if the guy said “no more flights”, for whatever reason?

MTV

In my two examples, the first was brought to my attention AFTER the purchase. It was returned to the seller.... much longer story.
The second I told the buyer not to buy it. But he did anyway.

If the gear is out on this 185, the IA experienced pilot ought to be able to notice it even if the seller is making the landing.

[aktango58]

Only a few critical things a test flight will tell you:
does it fly strait hands off?
Does it stall strait and proper? (or does it drop a wing and try to spin)
Does the engine run normal in all phases of flight?

The last one I had a test flight scheduled a couple weeks in advance. When I went to idle for landing the engine died in the air. got it restarted on the ground, did another run up, then pulled all the way to idle and died again. The owner was the mechanic that put that engine back together and said "it does that". I ended the flight and the discussion about that plane.

I don't even need to touch controls, just have the guy trim it, and take hands and feet off- see what it does. Have him stall it and watch his hands and feet. If no strange gyrations required that is all I need to see.

Note: a good mechanic can look and see, or measure to check the plane is square. If way out of square, or forks on one side way different than the other but it flies strait, it is still bent just not enough to make it impossible to rig. Not many square birds out there fyi!

[WhiskeyMike]

My 2 cents... How is it that you fly in someone else's airplane to test or buy it and it is wing heavy? It has happened to me scores of times, and I always wondered what the heck the owner was thinking - or not? As little as a 20 minute fix to ferry it home if it's a Cub, with three wrenches and maybe a couple of cotter pins. - but what's the wing heaviness telling you - about the plane and the owner's attitude.

The other point you should be aware of is that if you deliver an airplane out of state and litigation follows, you will likely be sued in the buyer's state, which could be a long ways from home and very expensive in terms of travel. Better to sell it on site and make arrangements for delivery under a separate deal, or not at all.

[Utah-Jay]

I looked at an add, says accepting offers. It that is the plane it is a damn good looking plane

[bob turner]

You can measure the gear on the ground. Just use a tape measure and the tire treads - look for less than a half inch difference front to back.

In flight, trim for level flight, then fly with your feet. If the wings stay level and the nose is not swinging, you are ok. Then stall it, and look for any strange wing drop. AkTango has it right.

On Cubs, if it either doesn't fly straight or a wing drops, look for mis-matched ailerons - very common, and the solution is a couple grand if you cover them yourself. Don't know about the 180 - possible that a hinge mis-match is not all that common.

[stewartb]

Now that I think about it, the airplanes I’ve sold never got flown by the buyers until the deals were closed. They never asked.

[Steve Pierce]

I have done quite a few pre-purchase inspections where I flew the airplane. There are a lot of nice looking airplanes out there that pass a pre-buy but still fly bad. Just my 2 cents.

[Cardiff Kook]

I looked at an add, says accepting offers. It that is the plane it is a damn good looking plane

no- the ad is not up anymore.

I did see that plane. Looks nice. I never spend time on those “accepting offers” or “call for price” ads. I have called one or two for price but they were insanely inflated. I always feel the “accepting offers” ads are tire kickers of the selling type.

[hotrod180]

.....I'm under contract on a plane subject to prebuy and the owner does not want to let the mechanic fly it. He said, "I am the only person who has ever flown that airplane for 40 years and I don't know this guy." I get it- but you are selling the airplane? I went up in the plane for about 20 minutes when I put down the deposit- about 5 minutes on the controls. We did not have time for anything more because I flew in to see the plane and seller waffled on selling it to me ("I promised I would hold it for someone else...") so ran out of time before my flight home to do a proper flight.....

When the plane went for sale I got a barnstormers alert. I called the guy immediately. At 530am the following morning me and a mechanic were on a commercial flight to go see the plane. By just after lunch i had given him a $3,000 all cash deposit. I would have given him more but he needed time to to read over the purchase sale agreement. This all happened about 24 hrs after it went for sale and I live a couple thousand miles away. I also paid asking price. Tire kickers don’t generally fly an a&p in at 530am and spend $1500 on the flights to see it. If he thinks I am a tire kicker I don’t think I can solve that one......

I'm having a hard time figuring out your situation.
When you went to look at the airplane, the seller told you it was promised to someone else...
yet you gave him (and he accepted) a $3K deposit, and a purchase contract.
Now this business with "you already took it for a ride".
Sounds like the seller is playing games,
I don't understand why people do it but I've heard of people doing this kind of thing before.
I think I'd ask for my money back & keep on looking.

[Cardiff Kook]

I'm having a hard time figuring out your situation.
When you went to look at the airplane, the seller told you it was promised to someone else...
yet you gave him (and he accepted) a $3K deposit, and a purchase contract.

No- but its too complicated to try to explain. He ended up not holding it for the other person after a phone call

[stewartb]

You got some air time in it. Did you like it? Did it start easily? Engine temps happy? No struggle to fly wings level?

Do you have your high performance sign off? Familiar with cowl flaps and a constant speed?

[TxAgfisher]

Anyone with a decent amount of make/model time ought to be able to fly from the right seat and tell if the rigging and performance is as it should be.

[Bearhawk Builder]

I sold my super cub two months ago, he never flew and still hasn't. Sits in my hanger and he put me on his insurance.

[Scooter7779h]

Now that I think about it, the airplanes I’ve sold never got flown by the buyers until the deals were closed. They never asked.

Last one I bought I knew its history, it was yours Stewart. Prebuy flight test not needed, heck I didn't even do a buyer's inspection. But if it was an unknown airplane I think a thorough prebuy inspection and possibly a ride in it is all that's needed.

Here is a video of my first flight in it. Can't see my huge smile very well! But watching again I was sure struggling with the overhead trim after having 3000 hours in 79H. Now after over 1,000 hours in this one it fits me like a glove and I don't trim much at all. But first flights I was getting it in and out of 200'.

[stewartb]

That’s a really good airplane. I’m glad it found a good home!

[hotrod180]

No- but its too complicated to try to explain. He ended up not holding it for the other person after a phone call

I wonder what happened with his other deal?
Here's what happened with an "airplane for sale" at my airport.
The owner tells me he wants to sell his (model redacted),
a model that a couple friends of mine are looking for.

I tell one of the guys about it, he calls about it, nothing apparently happened.
Then I tell the other guy, he goes to a lot of trouble to come over to look at it, nothing happened.
Talking to this guy afterward, he sez the owner wanted to talk about the airplane--
but he didn't seem to want to talk about actually selling it.
When I called & asked him, the first guy said the same thing.
I tell the owner- hey if you don't wanna sell, that's fine,
but tell me so I don't waste anyone else's time by siccing them on you.
"Oh no, I need to sell it". OK.

I sic a third friend on him, a local guy, they email and text back & forth extensively.
I finally tell my buddy if he wants to actually buy this airplane, not just talk about it,
he better make a date to physically look at the airplane, and make an offer if he wants it.
He sets that up, comes & looks at it,
and sez "I wanna buy it. What's the price?"
The owner tells him the asking price, my buddy sez "I'll take it",
then the owner starts making excuses why he can't sell it.
The next day the owner tears into the plane, and tells my friend "I can't sell it now, it's took apart".

I told the owner if he wants to jerk himself off pretending he wants to sell his plane, that's fine,
but it was BS of him to waste our time (and my credibility) by jerking us off too.

[mvivion]

I wonder what happened with his other deal?
Here's what happened with an "airplane for sale" at my airport.
The owner tells me he wants to sell his (model redacted),
a model that a couple friends of mine are looking for.

I tell one of the guys about it, he calls about it, nothing apparently happened.
Then I tell the other guy, he goes to a lot of trouble to come over to look at it, nothing happened.
Talking to this guy afterward, he sez the owner wanted to talk about the airplane--
but he didn't seem to want to talk about actually selling it.
When I called & asked him, the first guy said the same thing.
I tell the owner- hey if you don't wanna sell, that's fine,
but tell me so I don't waste anyone else's time by siccing them on you.
"Oh no, I need to sell it". OK.

I sic a third friend on him, a local guy, they email and text back & forth extensively.
I finally tell my buddy if he wants to actually buy this airplane, not just talk about it,
he better make a date to physically look at the airplane, and make an offer if he wants it.
He sets that up, comes & looks at it,
and sez "I wanna buy it. What's the price?"
The owner tells him the asking price, my buddy sez "I'll take it",
then the owner starts making excuses why he can't sell it.
The next day the owner tears into the plane, and tells my friend "I can't sell it now, it's took apart".

I told the owner if he wants to jerk himself off pretending he wants to sell his plane, that's fine,
but it was BS of him to waste our time (and my credibility) by jerking us off too.

And this relates to the current discussion how?

MTV

[bob turner]

It’s just interesting thread drift. Been there . . .

[Sturgill]

In an even further thread drift, has anyone here actually seen the 1969 180 that is advertised in Gig Harbor , WA? https://nickelboat.com/home

I have resisted calling the guy because I don’t need to spend that much money. It is exactly how I would build one, and I don’t think you could buy the pieces for his price.

Please tell me its a junker that flies crooked.

[Cardiff Kook]

Op- i got him to agree to take the mechanic up.

[Cbass]

Sturgill I think you should buy it and give us a user report so my curiosity can be put at ease! I've got family in Gig Harbor and was visiting over Thanksgiving. I had half a mind to call the seller and look at it then, but decided I wasn't serious enough to take his time. I don't see mention of long range fuel which would be a deal breaker for me. I've got a PPonk without long range fuel in my '56 182 currently.

[Cbass]

Awesome! Sounds like things are moving in a positive direction!

[Sturgill]

My previous 180 had Flint tip tanks and 88 gallons. A fellow could add those pretty easily. I’d need to sell a couple airplanes. I’ve never bought a nice airplane before; always had to build it myself. Hard to imagine. Plus 9% TN tax!

[hotrod180]

And this relates to the current discussion how? MTV

An admittedly long winded example of an airplane being "for sale" when the owner didn't really want to sell it.
Thought it might be a similar situation to the OP's.

Sorry if my story offended your sensibilities.
In the future, feel free to not read my posts--
I promise that won't offend mine.